Talk:Normans

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Contents

[edit] Earl discussions

Very odd -- I posted a question, but it's gone.

Question for April -hhhhhhhhhhhahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahbvkjdsbfvsdkvofsgvfdgfdgfgfdgdf- DO you have a source for the Norman-Saxon relationship? IIRC, the differentiation was exaggerated in the 19th c. (evil French invaders vs good Englishmen), but most medievalists now agree that William and the Normans treated any Saxons who were loyal and paid their taxes on time as they treated anyone else -- with the exceptiion that their favorites sometimes got lands confiscated from previous Saxon holders. I just don't really understand how, when William came in at the end of a previous struggle for the throne, there could have been such unity...? HK

  • Sorry, I was responding to the first version of your question when my browser crashed - must have done something evil. Anyhow, to answer your question... I'll throw some official sources at the question over the weekend, since that one was off the top of my head. However, I think (IIRC) the Mercian Rebellion in 1068 did stress the "Saxon-ness" of the rebels, as opposed to the "Norman-ness" of William I and company. There certainly were notable cultural differences, language being the most obvious. Politically, the situation was interesting, since the Saxons already had a feudalistic structure in place; the Normans just moved in at the top of it. They probably weren't "oppressive" any more than the Saxon lords had been... but I suspect that the difference in culture made for a great rallying-point for ambitious Saxons.
  • I think of it as analogous to the situation when the English invaded Ireland. Prior to the English territorial claims, the Irish fought amongst themselves constantly (or Ulster fought against the other three provinces constantly, depending on who you listen to...) Quite a lot of Irish clans sided with the English during the various battles back and forth. Yet as the English became an identifiable class of "landlords", Irish nationalism grew into a remarkable fervor, and continues to this day. Now, Saxon nationalism does not continue to this day, so I agree that there was far greater Norman-Saxon integration than ever Anglo-Irish. Nonetheless, the identifiable differences of the Normans who made up the bulk of the "ruling class" would have been a quite significant target for Saxons to take aim at. -- April
Feudalistic structure? Sorry, but what is that when it's at home? IF you mean that Saxon lords bound followers to them with oaths, that's one thing, but it sounds like you mean something else... Otherwise, I think that the chief historians for the Rebellion are William of Jumiéges (Maybe) and Orderic Vitalis. I seem to remember Orderic as being somewhat moralistic and, despite being of Norman descent, very "pro-English." I know that, like most chroniclers of his day, muct be taken with a grain of salt. Morcar and Edwin had better reasons than "we Saxons" for rebelling -- they wanted a bigger cut!HK
    • I am not a professional historian, merely an interested amateur. But since you ask... as I recall from my college discussions, Saxon England had a hierarchy that, while not as rigid as the feudal systems which would later develop, still had many of the same relationships. See Domesday Book and Beyond: Three Essays in the Early History of England by F.W. Maitland. Thus, "feudalistic"... similar but not identical to a feudal system.

Not that Maitland is wrong, but he is largely outdated since Elizabeth Brown, Susan Reynolds, and others began refuting the existence of the feudal system. There's a general summation of present scholarship in the Feudalism article.

    • As for the Norman/Saxon division being significant... I draw your attention to the Murdrum fine. From an article by Geoff Boxell:
"Because of the high rate of homicide being suffered by the Normans and their French allies, King William legislated that all Frenchmen who settled in England after the invasion were to be in the king's peace and therefore he was their protector in an alien land. Its introduction was recognised at the time as being necessary due to the hatred of the Normans by the English and their attacks on them. The fine was a high one of 46 Marks."

I looked up Geoff Boxell. He is a novelist and amateur historian. This doesn't make him wrong, but the sources he uses are not quoted, and it is impossible to thus judge the article critically. Sources like Orderic are known to be biased, and without proper citation, how can we tell where he gets his information. Also, is he using his own translation or Chibnall's? It makes a difference.

    • You're right about Orderic Vitalis. In 1125, he wrote applauding English resistance to "William the Bastard" (Ecclesiastical Historii). But do note the distinction between "English" - meaning the pre-Norman, Saxon-dominated society - and the Normans. He saw them as distinct, opposed groups.

Again, he was a Norman. His mother was English, IIRC. He's writing with an axe to grind, based largely on the works of William of Julieges, who was also not especially neutral. There may have been a difference, but he may have exaggerated it...

    • From Stephen Muhlbergher's Medieval England:
"The English aristocracy of 1066, especially the middle ranks, was an old and comfortable aristocracy. The Normans, Bretons, and other Frenchmen who replaced them... were foreigners with no cultural connection to the people they ruled, and so they became even more of a military class than they might have been otherwise... The native English found their status correspondingly depressed... The geburs of 1066 became the villeins of 1086. Geburs had been free men, with some access to the public courts. They had the wergilds of free men, even if they were economically subservient. After the conquest, wergilds ceased to be used, and formerly free men with little property and heavy labor obligations found themselves to be villeins. Villeins -- a French word -- were considered unfree, and eventually were entirely excluded from the shire and hundred courts, at least when they had disputes with their lords... Sokemen and the lesser thegns also found themselves farther down the social scale..."

Couldn't find this in Muhlberger's website or his CV. I'm vaguely familiar with his work (recently read a review he'd written in the AHR), but couldn't find this in particular. Don't deny that it's true, or even what the passage says is true, but am also not at all convinced that the resentment was as clearly focused as the article now implies. Among the lower classes ( in a loose sense) of free- and partially free people, there may have been some resentment, but that's very hard to document. Among the more priveleged, there are tons of other reasons for resentment that may have less to do with Norman-Saxon cultural differences than with the fact that they'd lost lands and privileges.

I, on the other hand, would like to know how Muhlberger reconciles the international character of the higher ruling group in England with this supposed 'old and comfortable aristocracy' - just saying "especially the middle ranks" doesn't seem to cut it. What about all those Scandinavians? MichaelTinkler
    • I don't contest that this state of affairs didn't last all that long, in historical terms, with the Normans identifying themselves as Anglo-Normans and then just plain English. But for the first few generations after 1066, there does seem to have been residual ill-feeling between the cultural groups. -- April

I don't doubt that there was resentment, but at present the article reads much more like Robin Hood and Ivanhoe than what I remember from my coursework and reading. I'm just trying to avoid oversimplifications that verge on poular history ;-)HK

      • Perfectly reasonable; I just hadn't, originally, intended to write an entire scholarly article. Perhaps we can boil down these discussions with some more sources, and present them in the article itself? The two or three lines that had been presented are woefully inadaquate, and from these discussions there's obviously quite a lot more to be said. -- April

The 'French of Paris' was always an oddity in England. Anglo-Norman remained the standard in legal use so long as legal French survived. Anglo-Norman remained the literary standard as well for a time - Marie de France is a nice example of an author whose geographical origin is difficult if not impossible to sort out, but everyone calls her dialect Anglo-Norman. French was as regionally dialectalized as Middle English, and a preponderence of the later wave of French was west-French dialects. People had to make an effort to learn the French of Paris, which is why it is a joke for Chaucer. MichaelTinkler

OK! I used all of the material above in an attempt to update the article. For any further discussions and refinements, I beg that those more familiar with the subject will take over! I'd especially appreciate it if people would add to the References list as appropriate - I put in those I knew about, but that's all. Hope this is a more "balanced" view. -- April

Can anyone present any solid evidence for these alleged dukes of Normandy preceeding Rollo? All the more careful historical work I've read regards his background and ancestry as speculative, and I've never heard anyone suggest he had predecessors as duke. Loren Rosen


[edit] The Norman Religion

The Norman Religion is based around "Family Hope" of the descendents of Eyestein who journeyed to Normandy France. What was their reason and what was the Hope? Firstly Eyestein was the Jarl of "Upsala" Sweden. His vision for his children was that they Grow Strong and Fast With Money ruling over Upsala this is all he Hoped. But in Sweden at that time how was one to procure trade of "Right" of any means to ensure percuniary profit was amassed for ones self? Was one to pray to the Gods for "Wisdom" or was one to pray to the "Family" for help? Was their any way you could step outside the "Upsala" economy in the sense that a modern economic society today could conceive? The answer is this. The King controlled all precuniary objectives. The son of a Jarl had to enlist in "Fighting" for "800" years through a "Deed" called the "Writ of Service" where by his Heart Mind and Body would be in service to the King during Life and then Death. An this was considered "fortunate" if he approved of your "Standard of Behaviour" and "Conduct" before his "Officers". However with Eyesteins childern they yearn for a "Greater" thing and that was "Hope Immaculate" because they were rich.

In 1066 Duke William took a vow which basically said: ""If I should died on this epic journey across thy way let no man understand my reason or see if I shall perish for it is too much to bear the whole idea of coming so close to certainty of greatest to look upon my life and then fail"" on the morning of advance to England so who did he pray for safe recovery of his life if all should fail. It wasnt his Ducal Realm but it was to the principality of its "Hope". Was this pray considered in any Court? Because it basically opens the question of who guides one over death. Did the Pope guide him to safety with his "Agreemento" or did the "Norse God's" guide him to their "Abandon" or was the "Religion" in Normandy sufficent to guide him against the "God" and "Lord" of Saxon England. In the end he died Horrible and was not cared for in "Burial Ritual" in Normandy. So what was the problem with the Normans and the Churches of God and the Lord if such a great King be so badly mistreated by his subjects?William I of England.

---

[edit] Removal of "Normans in Russia"

(this is a new thread / discussion +)

[Dec. 1, 2004] Am I the one one who feels that the "Norman origins" part of this article is completely irrelevant and out of place? Who is Geoffrey Malaterra, and why should anyone give a damn what he thinks of the Normans? And Normans are Vikings who conquered Normandy in the 10th cent. and adopted Christianity and the customs and language of France. But not all Vikings are Normans. So Vikings that end up in KIEV are NOT Normans.

While the information on the "Varangians" may be interesting, it does not belong in a primary place in this article. The definition of what "Normans" are does not include any parallel groups, such as Vikings in Russia.

I am removing the current "The Normans in Russia" section, which reads only "See Kievan Rus' and Rus' (people)." This is not a valid section. The Kievan Rus article only mentions Normans once, in passing. "Varangians" just means "Vikings"; not all Vikings are Normans. Also replacing the irrelevant line about the " Varangians" in the opening paragraph. I am hoping the replacement will suit the author of those comments: "The Norsemen were quite similar to other Vikings, who were known as Danes in England and as Varangians in Russia. "

I would suggest that the original author of the "Varangian" material to this article could add the following to the entry for "Varangians":

" See Kievan Rus' and Rus' (people) "

I am leaving the "Geoffrey Malaterra" quote in for now: I would like to see some discussion here of what value, if any, this item adds to the encyclopedia entry for "Normans".

p.s. Can anyone explain this thing on "Norman Religion" above? It sounds like the ravings of a crazy person.

- Liberty Miller

[edit] Disney

Do you know that the origin of the name "Disney" is supposed to come from a small town in Normandy. A knight from Isigny (d'Isigny) followed William the Conqueror. And has had a successfull lignage (lineage). Gwalarn 22:16, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Map

I have some objections to the map. I think it should include about 75% of Ireland, as the invasion of Ireland in 1169 is usually considered a Norman/Anglo-Norman/Cambro-Norman invasion. Many invaders were French-speaking Normans such as Raymond le Gros. His descendents today are the Redmonds, whose surname comes from the Gaelic MacReamann (meaning son of Raymond). Other Norman names include Fitzgerald (fitz from French "fils" meaning son).

[edit] Article rename?

What is the reasoning for renameing the article? "Normans" is a more common description used throughout Wikipedia. If you look at the "Source" for the article, there is an official European Commision website on the history of the Normans, the website is called "The Normans, a European peoples". Thats about as official as it gets, this is what the people call themselves. There is much more common usage for "The Normans" than "Norman people". A redirect page could be created for "Norman people". Currently, almost all of the 100 or so links to this page use "Normans" Stbalbach 03:09, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Article renamed to "Normans". This was the original article name when it was created in 2001 (one of the oldest on Wikipedia) by JHC, who has a PhD in medieval history. There was no discussion about renameing the article, there has been no discussion in 4 years about it, and there is a strong historical and contemporary precendant to call it "Normans", and the 'What Links Here' shows %95 of Wikipedians use "Normans" and not "Norman people". Google search would support it as well. Stbalbach 18:32, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Norwegians(A Northmen's fief in France being known as Normandy)

Wiglaf thinks that Normans are just anybody who lived in Normandy. I have explained that Norwegians gave the name to Normandy, regardless of who lived there. This is a debate that goes back to French and German ideals of identity. The French believe that Bretons are French, but the Germans believe that Bretons are Bretons and French are French. This is the sense of the discussion that has been going on between Wiglaf and myself, but I am not sure he gets it yet. Both Saxon and Dane constituent parts of England have considered themselves to be their own individual and specific breed, but they registered as English for official functions. The reason being, is that said folks could not claim to be citizens of Saxony or Denmark. The Wessex and Danelaw regions had been subsumed within England, but there is a sense of provincial attachments to ancestry within the framework of the state. For instance; New France, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, New England, New Netherland, New Sweden and New Spain were named after their chief colonists and yet there were many more people who had been involved in it all. Even within Wiglaf's own country of Sweden, it is named for the Svear and not the Geats. There are Finnic and Gothic people in Svealand, but Svealand is named for the Swedes and not the Finns or Goths. I wonder how this can be a serious problem with academics, although know it is common to the lay person. The Seine Valley had been plundered and attacked by many Scandinavian peoples, but only the Northmen(Norrmen) of Norway were populated there enough to warrant a name after their population size and involvement. William the Conqueror and all his English descendents have ancestry through his paternal line to the fjordlands of Norway, not Denmark in any recognisable capacity. It is orthdoxically accepted that the Danelaw was a Danish venture, although there were Norse and Swedes present in the conquest among the Irish Sea in the royalties of East Anglia and Jorvik. Nevertheless, it was called "Danelaw" for very good reasons. How many Danes made it to a Mediterranean Crusade, compared to the Norwegians? Both Norse/Normans made it to Normandy and Sicily, with marriage ties to the Norman kings of England. Where was Danish power in 954 and 1066 but on the side of the Danish and English?

Do you know how long it has taken for the English of Saxon and Danish descent to be represented by their own kind? Since 1066 and later addition in the failure of both Sweyn Estridson and Canute IV of Denmark, only upon the Houses of Windsor and Mountbatten(or Mountbatten-Windsor) has this been corrected for the residential ethnic population. It is a mistake to blur the orientation and loyalty of peoples in such circumstances, which is why I am severely offended that Wiglaf and a few others have chosen to rebuff the logical conclusion about the primary Norwegian element of Normandy. Surely there is merit to this type of discussion: The House of Oldenburg derives from Ruestringen being a fief of the exiled and first Christian King of Denmark who was baptised in Mainz; Harald Klak and granted by Emperor Louis the Pious in 826. After this occurance, Saint Ansgar led his first mission to Denmark and this is how the Church of Denmark had its earliest roots. This was also the first official political relationship between the Danes and Saxons, preceding the Danish colonisation and takeover of England by 25 years at least. Why had the Anglo-Saxons and Danes bonded together in face of mutual foes such as the Kings of Dublin, Kings of Norway and the Duke of Normandy if they were not all Norwegians rallied against them? Anglo-Saxons and Danes had a common origin on and around Jutland, but none of this applied between them and the Norse whose origins lied with the Swedes via the Ynglings. The House of Olaf was no favoured by the Danish. Now I know that some editors aer merciless pussyfooters about identifying things which are controversially labeled trivial. I ask such people to provide evidence of why they should keep certain clarifiable subjects in a state of limbo and that they should forever remain a mystery to the lay reader. I have been asked to repeat my sources by Wiglaf, but he had not given his sources which could refute my purpose in declaring what I do. So "come all ye faithful" block-addicts and revert-spree warriors, because you know the pleasure of adrenalin and testosterone competitions. Talk:Viking#Upholding_Controversial_Discrepencies TheUnforgiven 20:55, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

This is not true, just because name look a like, dosent it make them norwegians. Theres is alot of sources that the founder og Normandy is from Denmark. Just like Dudo states. Some place names in Normandy are from Skaane, Denmark. And there is founds from Normandy in Denmark. So i don´t think that Normans were pure Norwegians. Most of the Normans were Natives.

[edit] Disambig status

I don't feel that it's a POV-problem or anything, but redirecting Norman straight here doesn't feel obvious to me. Charlie Norman and Norman, Oklahoma are of course not terribly notable, but Norman language seems just as obvious and relevant to reach when searching for "Norman".

Peter Isotalo 10:33, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

The test is to look at the "what links here". If there are a bunch of articles that link that shouldnt... If not, then this is the primary meaning. Or, create an article Norman (disambiguation). Stbalbach 14:08, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
This seems as somewhat backwards thinking. Our own links can always be corrected and do not seem all that relevant. The issue is where people searching for "Norman" should wind up.
Peter Isotalo 18:10, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] General comment

Does it strike anyone as odd that this talk page is about twice as large as the article on the Normans? For such an important group of people, I find this article lacking in many areas. The part on Italy, Sicily and the Mediterranean is, well, let's be honest, it's not quite up to standard. Sicily was invaded by the Normans in 1061 (5 years before the more famous invasion), it took 30 years to overcome the Saracens completely in what is a pretty small island. At the height of the Norman Kingdom of Sicily (yes it reached incredible heights) the population of Palermo was around 300,000 (that of Rome was 30,000) and the tax revenues of Palermo alone dwarfed those of all of Norman England. Also, the Kingdom of Sicily actually included half the Italian peninsular - it was a sizeable, politically influential and incredibly affluent kingdom. But does this article give a sense of the relative importance of the two kingdoms? or the many relationships they forged? No, there is no sense of that at all. Am I being POV? My name ends in a vowel - I guess I must be! Sorry lads, this needs extra work! --pippudoz - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 06:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

  • and another thing - the Normans never ever ruled two separate kingdoms called the Kingdom of Naples and the Kingdom of Sicily - Roger II of Sicily effectively created the Kingdom of Sicily in 1130, and it included all of southern Italy up to the papal states. The two separate kingdoms occurred 152 years later after the Sicilian Vespers. --pippudoz - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 08:37, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion

This article needs some expansion (all sections) and a little cleaning up. I'll do what I can. Srnec 05:45, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Source?

In the list of sources is included: Muhlbergher, Stephen, Medieval England. First, I assme this is meant to be Steven Muhlberger, professor at Nipissing? (Note mangled spelling.) If so, I'm not familiar with this title by him -- nor is it included in the publications list at his own home page at [1] -- nor in the Library of Congress catalog. Can the original poster or anyone else substantiate this title? --Michael K. Smith 03:06, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crusades

We need a section on Norman involvement in the Crusades. Srnec 04:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] questions

i'm doing a histry homework i wondered could any-1 tell me what colour of hair the normans had?


Blue. 62.77.181.16 12:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Norman Legacy

I have noted that the name "Fulham" can be traced back to the first Norman invasions in the 12th Century, that in fact we came over with Strongbow and were part of his clan. there was a Welsh brigade with Strongbow and this gave rise to the names "Walsh" and "Wogan" etc. in Ireland. James felt that a lot of us were the product of inter-breeding with the Vikings, Normans and British Planters. He is correct of course. However generations of evolution have made us all feel proud of our Irishness and made us feel Irish in that we speak with the accent, are part of the culture and at least in most cases, up to 10 generations before us were born and raised here.

You have ironic situations whereby my Great, Great x25 Grandfather came over with Strongbow from England and helped plunder the Irish tribes and people and my Grandfather helped repel the British into submission.


Who are we?

[edit] Rollo

Why do you call him Hrolf, when we don't know if that really was his name?

Why do we write Danish "OR" Norwegian. When we know for sure that there was Danes, (arcording to "Bayeux tapestry", founds from Normandy in Denmark, and writing about Danish people). But don't know if there was Norwegians.

So where does the norwegians come from? --Comanche cph 14:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Using the word nationalist

To Comanche cph: Your edit summary (rv user:Inge ´s nationalist edit. There is no sources telling about Norwegians went to Normandy. And there is not found one single item in norway from normandy.) is to say the least a bit pussling. I would like to remind you that you have already been blocked once for using the word nationalist to describe fellow wikipedians. When it comes to your statement regarding the lack of sources telling about Norwegians in Normandy I am even more pussled as we have been engaging in a long strenous debate regarding a source stating that the founder of Normandy was Norwegian. Inge 13:31, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no sources telling about that norwegians in Normandy OR France. The "hrolf gange" theory IS remarked. But that's an hole anorther story. That's has nothing to do with this issue.

Please tell me. What source do you have for write there was norwegians in Normandy. Please don't rewrite history without sources. --Comanche cph 13:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


Are you telling me that you don't recognise the Rolf-Ganger source when it comes to this article? We all know you don't like that one, but still you have to accept it even in articles other than Rollo of Normandy. If you won't accept that source as sufficient for claiming a Norwegian precense in Normandy I don't see the point in giving you the attention or satisfaction of debating this same issue over and over again. Inge 14:10, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I have always acepted the icelandic hrolf ganger as a theory. But i really don't wanna take thatdiscussion up with you again.

But what has hrolf ganger to do with what the population in normandy was? I ask you again. Witch sources do you have for your rewrite? and why do you write "OR"?

This seems like a new pro-norwegian history rewrite from user:Inge. --Comanche cph 14:17, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you still think that the Icelandic saga states that Hrolf Ganger was from Iceland? It does in fact state he was from Norway. Please take a read through of the previous debates we have had and save us all some time. Inge 14:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Inge, he fled from Iceland and was a jarl(or son of a jarl -cant remember). He was born in norway as it tells. I really don't care, if we say norway or iceland. But sorry that i wrote Iceland and not Norway as there he was born, according to the theory. But please don't change the subject.

Now i ask you for the third time, after still not have getting any answer:

Witch sources do you have for your rewrite? And why do you write "OR"? --Comanche cph 15:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Still waiting for answar from Inge. --Comanche cph 09:34, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes that's probably right. But Norse doesn't mean Norwegians. And this is a historian from 1952. There is different sources and founds who point at Danish.

There is no sources or founds of Norwegians in. So what is this rewrite based on? Only user:Inge may know that, since it's this user who has wrote it. --Comanche cph 18:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how you expect to be taken seriously when you admit that Hrolf Ganger (which is most likely the founder of Normandy) was from Norway and still state that there are no sources for Norwegians being in Normandy. Inge 18:24, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


"don't see how you expect to be taken seriously when you admit that Hrolf Ganger (which is most likely the founder of Normandy) was from Norway"

First of all this "edit of yours" has nothing to do with the Gange hrolf. And this is not "most likely". And if it was him, there is still no sources for norwegians. The Hrolf Gange theory you talk about by the Icelandic historian, tells that he was banished from Norway by the king (don't remember the name). And lived in Iceland.

"and still state that there are no sources for Norwegians being in Normandy."

But what are the sources??? Then tell me!! And why did you wrote "OR"?? And how many times do i need to repeat myself? --Comanche cph 18:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This is it. Just say it. There are no sources for this rewrite of your. I revert it back as it was. Thanks. --Comanche cph 17:48, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

If you read this article you will find a source stating that Norwegians were present in Normandy. Inge 19:16, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

What are the sources??? Why do you link to Rollo? I guess you are pointing to the the Hrolf gange theory.

I repeat again: The Hrolf Gange=Rollo theory you pointing to, tells that he was BANISHED from Norway by the king there. Therefore he lived in Iceland, and sailed from Iceland. -as THAT Icelandic theory tells about. -But why pointing Rollo? This article is not about Rollo, but about the Normans general. So i ask again. What are the sources for Norwegians there?

Please don't keep rewriting articles on wikipedia, if you don't know the sources. --Comanche cph 22:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

We can have a agrement like this?: .....population of Neustria and Danish Vikings (some possible from other parts of Scandinavia), who began....

--Comanche cph 23:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

In general I am in favour of seeking compromise on wikipedia. But in the case of user comanche cph I am in doubt whether it is not best to ignore him. He has shown over and over again that he has very little knowledge about the topics he are debating. He behaves as some strange sort of Danish nationalist, who seem convinced that all Norwegian and Icelandic users on wikipedia are part of some great conspiracy to rob Denmark of its proper place in medieval history. I can't see myself why it should be very important for anyone whether Rollo and the vikings in Normandie in general were from present day Denmark or Norway, at a time when the very idea of Denmark or Norway was hazy at best, and there was very little difference between Danes and Norwegians, and I expect very few other wikipedians care much either. What we care for is to have wikipedia present the facts, as closely as possible, according to the scholarly consensus. And the scholarly consensus is that the vikings in Normandie came from Scandinavia, probably both Denmark and Norway. --Barend 18:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
As someone who often writes about Sicilian history, I have to confess that it matters little to me which part of Scandinavia they came from (predominantly). They were of Viking and/or Norse descent (which for me is a good enough description) and within a century they were thoroughly latinised and christian. That pretty much sums it up. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 23:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

No matter who is or is called a nationalist. We need to have a source for Norwegians was Normans to. As far i have known. Norwegians settled Ireland, Scotland and Iceland. While Danes settled England and France. To Barend and Inge: You can't just claim your Guessing here. --80.196.116.38 12:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear anonymous user. It is not true that it is merely myself and Inge who are trying to put Danish and Norwegian in the article. In fact, comanche cph is the only one who has so far tried to remove Norwegian. If he, or you, want the article to say that all the Normans came from Denmark, then you will have to find a source saying that. Our sources for saying there were Norwegians among the normans have been exhaustively discussed on the discussion page for Rollo of Normandy. However, since, as I said, it matters very little whether they came from Denmark or Norway, at a time when the very notion of "Denmark" or "Norway" was hazy at best, I have now written that they came from "Scandinavia". This should be a compromise we all can live with. --Barend 07:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


This is NOT Hrolf Gange. Look at what the Hrolf Gange Theory you pointing to say. I have wrote it two times now, if you didnt know it. He was a guy who was banished from Norway and lived in Iceland. This article is not about ONE guy! In the fact you are the only one to out Norwegian in anywhere without source. We HAVE sources that the majority was Danes. We have NO facts for Norwegians. The old sources and writings about Danes, from the Bayeux tapestry, (Harold klak king of Jutland came with men to Normandy). That the Danes from Danelagen fled to Normandy. Anglo coins found in Denmark. Far biggest transport ships found in Denmark, used for trading primarily in Normandy say historians. You Norwegians say it doesnt matter where they was from. But i can see it matter for you to write who was Norwegians in Norway article. And you keep changing it back to Norwegians, while there is NO SOURCE for it.

You need source if you wanna rewrite this! http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Normans&diff=27008966&oldid=26282705 --Comanche cph 10:28, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

If you wanna claim that Norwegians was Normans to. You will have to cite sources. --Comanche cph 11:33, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Again: Sources have been sited. If you don't want to axcept that is fine, but you still have to follow the rules. Inge 11:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Where!? Please you know as much as me that there is no sources for your claiming. --Comanche cph 11:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

This map from History of Danish pretty much tells it to. Who was where. Norway first apopted Danish language in the Kalmar union(500 to 1000 years later). --Comanche cph 16:49, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

This is the approximate extent of Old Norse and related languages in the early 10th century. The red area is the distribution of the dialect Old West Norse; the orange area is the spread of the dialect Old East Norse. The pink area is Old Gutnish and the green area is the extent of the other Germanic languages with which Old Norse still retained some mutual intelligibility.

I would recommend that user comanche cph try to get some knowledge about medieval history before he starts writing about things he obviously knows nothing about. Although it has all been said thousands of time before, here we go again:
- Comanche's representation of the story of Gange Rolf is wrong. Neither Historia Norvegiae nor Snorri Sturluson say anything about Gange Rolf going to Iceland. Comanche has obviously never even read any of these sources, as he keeps misrepresenting them.
- Norway did not adopt Danish language in the Kalmar union. I am not sure what point comanche is trying to make here, but he is wrong, anyway. The Kalmar union in 1397 did not change the language of Norway. It is, however, a fact that the old norse language, spoken throughout both Norway and Denmark during the viking age, was commonly referred to as donsk tunga (Danish tongue) - as you can see in the article on old Norse language.
- Comanche tries to make it seem as if it is Inge and myself who are trying to change this article, when in fact, what is happening is that it is comanche who is trying to change the article to claim that all the vikings in Normandie were Danish, a claim which is unverifiable, and goes against several sources and the general consensus on the question.
- I applaud the extreme patience being shown by Inge in trying to reach a compromise with comanche, but I must say I am not sure whether a user so obviously lacking in knowledge about the topic he is arguing about deserves the effort. --Barend 18:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

This Barend say is fake

Barend and Inge have NO SOURCE for claiming that Norwegians was a part of the population in Normandy.

No matter what Barend say about Hrolf Ganger. Is that the only one out of two teory's about Rollo of Normandy, while the other and older from Normandy tells about a Dane. The funny thing with this is this article is not about Rollo. So Barend and Inge try to use the single Hrolf Ganger teory as a source for Norwegians was Normans to. :D I repeat: That unrelated source Barend pointing to. Tells that the guy was Banished from Norway. -That is the one and only source he/they will use for Norwegians was a part of the Norman population.

"- Norway did not adopt Danish language in the Kalmar union. I am not sure what point comanche is trying to make here, but he is wrong, anyway. The Kalmar union in 1397 did not change the language of Norway. It is, however, a fact that the old Norse language, spoken throughout both Norway and Denmark during the viking age, was commonly referred to as donsk tunga (Danish tongue) - as you can see in the article on old Norse language."

" Norway did not adopt Danish language" Maybe you should check up a little on History of Norway.

These qoute's is from Norwegian language. In short; Books in Norway was Danish doing the kalmar union.

"from 1536 Norway was subordinated under the Kingdom of Denmark. Danish became the commonly written language among Norway's literate class. Spoken Danish was gradually adopted by the urban elite, first at formal occasions, and gradually a more relaxed variety was adopted in everyday speech." and "The name of the Danish language in Norway was a topic of hot dispute through the 19th century. Its proponents claimed that it was a language common to Norway and Denmark, and no more Danish than Norwegian. The proponents of Landsmål thought that the Danish character of the language should not be concealed. In 1899 the neutral name Riksmål was adopted, meaning national language like Landsmål. The name "Riksmål" is sometimes interpreted as "state language", but this meaning is secondary at best, refer Danish rigsmål from where the name was borrowed."

Quote Barend: "It is, however, a fact that the old Norse language, spoken throughout both Norway and Denmark during the viking age, was commonly referred to as donsk tunga (Danish tongue) - as you can see in the article on old Norse language."

This is funny. Of course Norway and Denmark both spoked Old Norse. Norway spoked old west Norse while Denmark spoked old East Norse. Two different language! as that link you pointing to, say. But the language's is also related to North Germanic and Germanic and Indo-European. So according to you all in Europe spoken the same language?? :D

What i'm trying to tell you. As you also can see on the articles you linking to. Is that Norway and Danish language NOT was the same language. Different rune script to.


"claim that all the vikings in Normandie were Danish, a claim which is unverifiable, and goes against several sources and the general consensus on the question."

No Normans was a mix of a population in Neustria and Danes. -As it also was written BEFORE the two Norwegians started to change this article.

"goes against several sources and the general consensus on the question"

I have asked you like 10 times. GIVE US THEN THE SEVERAL SOURCES!!! WHERE ARE THEY??? --Comanche cph 21:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you should read this Wikipedia:Cite your sources. --Comanche cph 21:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear Comanche, your last entry really reveals yor lack of knowledge of medieval history. I say again: you have not been behaving in a manor worthy of a serious response, still we have treated your entries here with as much respect as possible. But again you reveal you lack of knowledge of the subject you are trying to make authoritative statements about. Your contributions here are not positive and thus not wanted. I suggest you find something better to do with your time, such as learning about medieval history.Inge 01:48, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


I KNOW THE HISTORY. PLEASE INGE JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION WITH BOLD TEXT!!! Is it to hard for you?? maybe because you know i'm right. -

i say again. You are the one who has changed it. That's why you need source for it!

And stop talking about respect, you probably don't know what that is either. --Comanche cph 07:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Not that I think this will end the discussion, but here are sources:

--Barend 07:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible that kissing cousins could dislike each other so intensely? :-) πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 07:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Again you keep linking to the Hrolf Gange teory and to a privat homepage. JUST FORGET HIM. This is not about him. Now start to see if there should be any source of Norwegians in Normandy. And if you look at Normandie's own homepage you will see that they call him Rollon, not Gynge Gange Hrolf.

You probaly think that Norwegians (Nordmænn) named it to Normandie. That's why you so intensely think that Norwegians was Normans, i guess. But again you are wrong. Normandie got the name by the Franks.

You need sources if you gonna rewrite history to Norwegians was Normans to. --Comanche cph 14:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I doubt that this is likely to convince those with entrenched views but it may help to enlighten bemused bystanders. Histoire de la Normandie by Jean Mabire and Jean-Robert Ragache, Paris, 1986, ISBN 2704807035, sets out a view of multiple-sourced Viking settlement (in Chapter 3): "Il est déjà difficile de distinguer entre apports francs, saxons et scandinaves. Essayer de discerner entre les Vikings ceux qui viennent de Norvège et ceux qui arrivent du Danemark ne paraît pas facile. En fait la Normandie orientale et centrale serait plutôt d’origine anglo-danoise. Un Cauchois d’Yvetot ou un Augeron d’Orbec habitent un pays fortement marqué par l’influence de ceux qui sont partis du Jutland et ont remonté la vallée de la Seine, apres avoir vécu souvent outre-mer dans le pays du Danelaw. La Normandie occidentale serait plutôt iro-norvégienne. Un Cotentinais de Barfleur ou de Nehou s’accroche à une terre colonisée par des Vikings ayant effectué la grande boucle, parfois sur plusieurs générations, par les Shetlands, les Orcades, les Hébrides et I’Irlande. Valcanville, dans le Val de Saire, ou Digulleville, dans La Hague, évoquent leurs fondateurs Valkan ou Dikuil, noms d’origine celtique, mais qui peuvent avoir été adoptes par des Scandinaves ayant vécu dans les îles de l'Ouest. Typique reste le nom de Nial, qui a donné Néel en Cotentin, et dont l’origine est celto-norvégienne.". Basically it is suggested that eastern Normandy i.e. Haute-Normandie was primarily settled by Danes and Anglo-Danes, whereas the Cotentin was settled in greater concentration by Celto-Norwegians, mostly arrived from Ireland, as well as by Danes and Anglo-Danes. For what it's worth, and bearing in mind that Jean Mabire was a noted proponent of Normannité, people can take this as further ammunition - or should we not rather declare a ceasefire? Man vyi 15:37, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the interesting input. I think I have said all I have to say on this talk page, and I hereby withdraw to the rank of bemused bystander myself. I will continue to revert destructive edits to the article, though. --Barend 15:40, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


Hmm. See that could be a source we could use. But i doubt that there was many Anglo's with Danes rather Saxons. But why and from what did that guy think there was a norwegian-celtic population in west? --Comanche cph 15:45, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


lol Barend you haven't said anything. Just klap i --Comanche cph 15:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

  • If, as seems likely, their accounts relate to the same person, he was known in the north as Hrolf the Ganger,...The saga makes him a Norwegian, but Danish scholars have sought to prove him a Dane, and more recently the cudgels have been taken up for his Swedish origin. To me the Norwegian theory seems on the whole the most probable, being based on a trustworthy saga and corroborated by other incidental evidence. Yet, however significant of Rollo's importance it may be that three great countries should each claim him as its own...it is futile to fit the inadequate evidence into one or another theory. The important fact is that Norway, Denmark, and even more distant Sweden, all contributed to the colonists who settled in Normandy under Rollo and his successors, and the achievements of the Normans thus become the common heritage of the Scandinavian race.

    Haskins, Charles Homer (1916). The Normans in European History. London: Constable, p. 29. 

  • As they expanded their authority west from the Seine region, Rollo's successors incorporated other Viking groups which had taken up residence in the Bessin and Cotentin. These appear to have been primarily Danish, some of whom had come to France via England, where King Alfred had made a treaty with Danish settlers a generation earlier. Rollo and his group, on the other hand, had come from Norway, where Rollo was remembered in the sagas as Rolf the Ganger: 'a great Viking: he was so big that no steed could bear him, and he therefore walked wherever he went'. An eleventh-century Norman charter indicates that Rollo was known as 'Rolphus' in Normandy as well.

    Harper-Bill, Christopher; Elisabeth Van Houts (2003). A Companion to the Anglo-Norman World. Suffolk: Boydell Press, p. 22. 

  • On the authority of the Heimskringla, he is supposed to have been a Norwegian, namely that Ganger-Rolf who was the exiled son of Ragnvald, earl of Möre, the trusty liegeman and comrade of King Harald Fairhair, and it is chronologically quite possible that Ganger-Rolf should have played a part in these operations in the country of the West Franks. The difficulty about this identification is that the Norman chroniclers themselves do not seem to have known the name Ganger-Rolf, or even Rolf alone, and the name that they do cite, Rollo, is better derived from ON. Hrollaugr or Hrolleif rather than from Rolf. But this in itself would not disprove the Norwegian nationality of Rollo, and as guarantee of his Danish origin there is nothing better than the always-to-be-suspected word of that very indifferent historian Dudo of St. Quentin. On the other hand, in St. Olaf's time, according to the Heimskringla, a Duke of Rouen, a descendant of Rollo, declared that he well remembered his kinship with the chiefs of Norway; while Saxo, the persistent panegyrist of the Danes and a writer to whom Dudo's book was known, makes no boast that Rollo was of Danish ancestry. It must be held, therefore, as most likely, though not proven with certainty, that Rollo was Norwegian...

    Kendrick, T.D. (1930). A History of the Vikings. New York: Charles Schribner's Sons, pp. 220-1. 

All other sources i've found so far punt with Scandinavian or Norse Viking. Hope the above helps.EricR 17:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Much national pride has been involved in trying to determine, without complete success, the origin of Rollo himself—was he Danish? or Norwegian? or possibly Swedish? No document of the settlement survives, and its terms can be inferred only from later documents...in 911 Rollo, whose place of origin is not really of consequence, led a Danish army to the town of Chartres, which he besieged. The siege proved unsuccessful, and Rollo’s army suffered a major defeat.

    Logan, F. Donald (1992). The Vikings in History. London: Routledge, p.134. EricR 18:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

  • The bulk of the settlers were men. They came principally from Denmark, although some came from the northeast of England and others from Ireland, a conclusion suggested by a sophisticated analysis of known names...Of course, new settlers were still coming in the 930s, some of them still pagan, and at one moment in the early 940s Normandy almost reverted to paganism...

    Ibid., p.135.EricR 18:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Normand"

this is an English doc, not a Norman/d source
this is an English doc, not a Norman/d source

hey why did you removed my "Normand"?

Don't you know "Normandie" ("Normandy" in English) comes from "Normand" (not "Norman" in English)? Without the (mute) "D" it would has been "Normany" (aka "Normanie") AFAIK right?.

The Normand talked in Old French (even the particular Old French "F" for "S" is used in the English translation writing), hence "Guillaume Le Conquérant" in French ("William the Conqueror" in English).

I think "Norman" (English) comes from "Normand" (Français), probably coming from "Norskmenn" (Norsk). "Guillaume Le Conquérant" is born in the Duché de Normandie (Normandy fief in France), his Christian name (birthname) is "Guillaume" not "William". Why are you ignoring the original, real names?

I don't know where "Normand"'s mute "D" comes from, can't be from "Nord" (North), because of the "man", any idea?

Your motto "Honi soit qui mal y pense" is Normand (ex: Modern French is "Honni soit qui mal y pense") JP Belmondo 17:32, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The Normans spoke Norman of course (and some still do). Wace uses Normanz for the people in the Roman de Rou. He has a fun poetic explanation of the origin of the name:
mant en engleiz et en norroiz
senefie homme en franchois;
ajoustez ensemble nort et mant,
ensemble dites donc Normant;
ce est honz de north en romanz,
de la vint le non as Normanz...
Normandie, qu'il ont peuplé,
por ceu que Normanz la peuplerent,
qui en la terre converserent.
Franchoiz dient que Normendie
ce est la gent de nort mendie,
por ceu qu'il vindrent d'autre terre
por miex avoir et por miex querre.

Translation (quick and dirty): Man in English and Norse signifies man in French; add together north and man, together you'll say then Norman; which is man of the north in Romance; from that came the name of the Normans... Normandy, that they settled, because the Normans settled it who occupied the land. The French say that Normandy is the country of mendiants of the North because they came from another land to have more and seek more.

In English, us Normans are Normans, not Normands or even Normanz. Sîncéthement, Man vyi 18:57, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sections

I would propse restructuring the article between the sections "Normans and Normandy" and "See also". The sections on the various regions of Norman influence should be put in chronological order, like so:

  • Italy
  • East
  • England
  • Wales
  • Crusades
  • Scotland
  • Ireland

I propose this here becaus it seems like a major restructuring and I don't know if putting some of the more important sections lower down on the page is the best idea. Also, as can be garnered from reading the sections, Wales could be placed before England and Crusades first of all. Srnec 18:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Assessment Criteria for Ethnic Groups articles

Hello,

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--Ling.Nut 20:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Romance languages?

How did a people(s) "originating from Scandinavia" end up speaking a Romance language?! --84.249.253.201 01:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

By moving to lands where Romance was spoken. Same way people "originating from Italy" ended up speaking a Germanic language when they immigrated to New York and learned English. Srnec 01:03, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Normans who invaded and settled England

I'm aware most inhabitants of Normandy were Celtic, with a bit of Germannic, and also that the Lords and nobles were Norse, so would this mean most of the Normans who settled England were Celtic? It seems to me to be safe to say.~ Hraegene —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.145.72.176 (talk) 02:17, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

Snyder in The Britons notes that the Normans brought in Breton nobles, who were of course Brythons and so Celts in the modern sense, while of course the inhabitants of Normandy which had been Keltiké had presumably intermarried or come under the rule of the "Norse" Normans. Contact me Ibefore it goes back to the library) if you want the Snyder reference explained. .. dave souza, talk 18:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The Normans who settled Britain were French! They spoke French (a Romance language), not a Germanic language, and possibly with the exception of some Bretons who followed them, not a Celtic language. There's no need to invoke any wooly half-racialist 18th century ethnic badge other than French, which is exactly what they and their neighbours called them. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 19:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
One should distinguish ethnicity and language. The populations of the territories incorporated into the Duchy were probably a mixture of Celtic and Germanic (Norse and Frankish) people varying in proportion across the territories - with perhaps a tendency to higher Norse concentration in coastal areas. The Norman language forged by the adoption of the prevailing Romance by Norse speakers is entirely independent as a language of administration from the ethnicity of the populations using it. Many of the Celtic Bretons in any case would have been Gallo speakers rather than Breton speakers. The linguistic frontiers, of course, at that period would have been less marked as the languages had diverged less at that period - however the later development and spread of French (and here I discount the Francien theory) tends to overlay and mask distinguishing features in the dialect continuum. Man vyi 08:47, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Totally meaningless. No evidence any Norman spoke any Germanic language in the 11th century. They and the supposedly different Gallo speakers were Franci... French. That was their only ethnicity. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 15:11, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Is anyone suggesting that Normans spoke a Germanic language in the 11th century (except of course those that may have spoken English either in England or Normandy due to the cross-Channel links)? The Norman language is certainly marked by Nordicisms - it's one of the features that distinguishes it from Gallo. Linguistics aside, I find it hard to believe in the existence of a French ethnicity in the 11th century. Man vyi 18:09, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, this is probably because you've not read any sources from that period. The Normans are the "French". You are suggesting they spoke a Germanic language by calling them Germanic; "Germanic" is a linguistic term, and is not a race. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 18:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Obviously, the Normans were an ethnic mix of many different peoples going back thousands of years... Everybody is. The whole ethnic question is rather meaningless. The Normans spoke French (albeit a dialect distinct from Parisian) and were Frenchmen, as their own Domesday Book attests. Srnec 04:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
When considering a feudal period (i.e pre-nation-state) I think it's probable that allegiance was important to the people of that time rather in the way that nationality is now. My opinion FWIW is that those who owed allegiance to the King of France might have considered themselves "French" in a way that cuts across modern ideas of nationality - but then we live with a situation of competing or overlapping identities in Normandy today. Man vyi 07:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Norman piety

Re: this sentence:

The legendary piety of the Normans was exercised in religious wars long before the First Crusade carved out a Norman principality in Antioch.

Which someone changed to zeal. The sentence and paragraph only makes sense if the Normans were pious. I don't see a problem with it, a few source could be found to that end.[4][5] Granted they may have used the cover of piety to justify conquest, but then one could say the same thing about many "just wars", was there ever a truly pious conquerer? -- Stbalbach 18:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I changed it to religious zeal -- Stbalbach 01:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
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