Image talk:Nobel medal dsc06171.jpg

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[edit] Tag

[Added a first heading later so that contents will post correctly. --NYScholar 00:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)]

I have tagged this photo as {{PD-US}} with regards to the copyright status underlying work of the medal engraving. According to The Nobel Foundation, the medal was first minted in 1902 and its design has not changed since then. [1] Accordingly, the design is in the public domain in the US by way of being published prior to 1923 (or, if you prefer, by being published in Sweden prior to 1909) - see Wikipedia:Public domain for details. KWH 05:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

That's true only if you consider it being minted as having been "published." Is there any reason to assume that sculpture is considered "published"? If it is "unpublished" then it is not PD at all. I don't know enough about this area of copyright law to say. --Fastfission 18:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
P.S: This at first seemed a picayune and simple question, but after much research I find the situation is unclear again.
I assume you are wondering if all sculptures fall into the unpublished category, and thus life of author plus 70 years protection. (P.S.: Actually the Foundation commissioned the medal from Lindberg, therefore it's a work for hire and, if deemed unpublished, becomes free in 2022) As I noted in one of the other discussions, the medal is like any mass-produced toy or piece of jewelry, only there are not so many, they are given rather than sold, and they are much more important. I cannot find anything which speaks directly to whether a sculpture is ever published. According to the Stanford © and Fair Use Center, "A work is considered published when the author makes it available to the public on an unrestricted basis. This means that it is possible to distribute or display a work without publishing it if there are significant restrictions placed on what can be done with the work and when it can be shown to others." [2]
I also have read of the difference between a general publication and a limited publication, which leads us to Estate of Martin Luther King, Jr., Inc. v. CBS, Inc.. This decision seems a bit controversial but has not been overturned. Notably, King's "I have a dream" speech is considered a limited publication because it was given only to a finite number of news reporters. One could argue that the Prize is similarly limited, or not.
General publication occurs if tangible copies of the work are distributed to the general public in such a manner as allows the public to exercise dominion and control over the work.
My opinion: the Prize is awarded to a finite number of people, but any living person is eligible. Although it is not easy to get one, one might analogize that to a book which costs $1 billion - hard to get but still made available to the whole public.
General publication may occur if the work is exhibited or displayed in such a manner as to permit unrestricted copying by the general public.
Does it count if the prize winner wears the medal in a place where they may be photographed by the public? (P.S: below case indicates that it doesn't count.)
Here's an interesting one, Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences v. Creative House Promotions, Inc., 9th Circuit, 1991. (for some reason this link is not working, I got the text of the decision through archive.org) With regards to a 'knockoff' of the Oscar, the court applied a two-part test from a prior decision to determine limited publication - "when tangible copies of the work are distributed both 1) to a "definitely selected group," and (2) for a limited purpose, without the right of further reproduction, distribution or sale." IMHO, the court did some logical backflips to maintain precedent; even though "no express restrictions on recipients' use or distribution of the Oscar existed before 1941, we conclude that restrictions on further distribution were implied."
So is there an implicit restriction on redistribution of the Nobel Prize? I did find, for instance, that Sir William Ramsay had his prize melted down and proceeds given to charity. [3] However, he had a replica made. A replica of 1993 Chemistry recipient Michael Smith's medal is at the University of British Columbia. [4] Also, apparently one for Chen Ning Yang, although it's not clear if the article refers to the Nobel medal or another honor received. [5] I have also found evidence that more recent recipients are given the medal as well as several replicas for displays at their affiliated institutes, so it is possible that these replicas are all authorized by the Foundation - whether their redistribution is restricted is unknown.
Are we having fun yet?
According to the Foundation's page, the medals of Niels Bohr and August Krogh were lost during World War II, donated to an auction, bought, and donated again to a museum, where they are today. [6] Several other medals were donated during World War II to help with war efforts, e.g. Selma Lagerlöf. One could make the argument that this showed that the medal itself was considered to have a commercial value in trade. Knut Hamsun donated his medal to Joseph Goebbels. If that doesn't show that there's no restrictions on redistribution, what does?
The back of the Chemistry medal is depicted on a New Zealand $100 note in honor of Ernest Rutherford - did this require permission? [7] The medal itself was donated to Canterbury University College by his widow. [8]
I have to admit after all that, the situation is still unclear. Perhaps even more shockingly, if the medal is unpublished, then according to Wikipedia:Fair use#Policy point 4, we can't use an image of it even under fair use! I will revert the copyright tag and continue to research this matter. KWH 07:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trademark and copyright

[Added the heading later so that contents will post correctly. --NYScholar 00:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)]

This image is both trademarked and copyrighted to the Nobel Foundation. It is not within fair use to use it without permission granted by the Nobel Foundation. The copyright notices on the website of the Nobel Foundation are clear with regard to its not being in the public domain or within fair use to use it without explicit written permission from the Nobel Foundation (except in very clearly specified circumstances pertaining only to descriptions of the Nobel medal, and even then certain written permissions and notice provided to the Nobel Foundation are required). This is not an ambiguous matter. The Nobel Foundation medal webpage (like its other webpages) contains an explicit copyright notice as well as a trademark reference Nobel Medals [replaced my earlier link to the Literature Nobel Medal® to the more comprehensive Nobel Medal® webpage (accessed 3 Sept. 2006)]; copyright notice; the copyright notice is an active link on the bottom right of the page. This image cannot appear in Wikipedia articles without both explicit written permission from and notification to the Nobel Foundation. (See the bold print in passages quoted below; note that permission is required in writing; it is not "granted" in advance of written requests; it may or may not be granted. That is the prerogative of the Nobel Foundation.) Here is what the copyright notice says:

Copyright and Trademark Information The documents and materials presented at Nobelprize.org are generally protected by copyright and related rights or as trademarks and trade names. For use of such material, permission in writing from Nobel Web AB or the Nobel Foundation is required.

All rights reserved. For detailed information, see Terms and Conditions of Use.
Pdf 112 kB  » In order to read the text you need Acrobat Reader.

Permission in writing is not required for: Reproductions - copies - made by private persons for private use of protected works. Creation of links from documents on other servers to any document at Nobelprize.org. Nobel Web AB appreciates being informed of such links. It is, however, not permitted to include content from Nobelprize.org into other websites using frames or similar techniques. Use of the press releases from the Nobel Foundation and the prize-awarding institutions, with the exception of logotypes and Nobel Prize design marks ("the Nobel Prize medals") (see below).

Permission in writing is required for:
Photos or Images of the Nobel Prize Medal

Permission to use an image or a photo of a Nobel Prize medal is only granted if the image is going to be used as an illustration to an editorial text about Alfred Nobel, the Nobel Prize or a Nobel Laureate.

An image of the Nobel Prize medal may, however, not be used on the cover of books, booklets or other printed matter, on posters, in exhibitions etc., nor for publicity or commercial purposes.

To apply for a permit, e-mail info@nobel.se. If permission is granted, ”®© The Nobel Foundation ” must be indicated.

Portrait Photos of the Nobel Laureates On application, the Nobel Foundation may grant a one-time, non-exclusive right to use a photo of a Nobel Laureate in a specific publication. Such a right does not include the right to sublicense uses of the photo or to reproduce the photo for distribution by any means or in other media. To apply for a permit, e-mail info@nobel.se. If permission is granted, "© The Nobel Foundation " must be indicated.

Other Photos For uses of photos, other than those of a Nobel Laureate, permission from the Nobel Foundation or Nobel Web AB, and in certain cases, from the photographer, is required. To apply for a permit for a photo with © The Nobel Foundation, e-mail info@nobel.se. If permission is granted, ”© The Nobel Foundation ” must be indicated. To apply for a permit for a photo with © Nobel Web AB, e-mail copyright@nobelprize.org. If permission is granted, ”© Nobel Web AB ” must be indicated.

Nobel Diplomas The artists and calligraphers of the Nobel Diplomas have granted the Nobel Foundation the rights to these materials. To use a reproduction of a Nobel Diploma, permission has to be granted by the Nobel Foundation. To apply for a permit, e-mail info@nobel.se. If permission is granted, ”© The Nobel Foundation ” and the specific artist and/or calligrapher must be indicated.

The Nobel Lectures, Presentation Speeches and Biographies To use or translate a Nobel Lecture, a presentation speech, a banquet speech or a biography, permission has to be granted by the Nobel Foundation. To apply for a permit, e-mail info@nobel.se. If permission is granted, ”© The Nobel Foundation” and relevant year must be stated, the text correctly quoted and the author identified as the sole author of the text.

Articles For use of an article, permission from Nobel Web AB, and in certain cases also from the authors, is required. To apply for a permit, e-mail copyright@nobelprize.org. If permission is granted”© Nobel Web AB ” and in certain cases the name of the author must be indicated.

Educational Games The educational games are not available to download or in an offline version. For use of material in the Education Games-section, permission from Nobel Web AB is required. To apply for a permit, e-mail copyright@nobelprize.org. If permission is granted,”© Nobel Web AB” must be indicated.

The Nobel Posters For use of the Nobel Posters in Physics, Chemistry and Physiology or Medicine, permission from the respective prize-awarding institution is required. To apply for a permit, e-mail reception@kva.se (Physics and Chemistry posters), or secr@mednobel.ki.se (Physiology or Medicine poster).

The Swedish Nobel Stamps Sweden Post has granted the Nobel Foundation the right to publish the Swedish Nobel Stamps. Permission from Sweden Post is required for use of the Swedish Nobel Stamps. All rights reserved. For detailed information, see Terms and Conditions of Use. Pdf 112 kB  » In order to read the text you need Acrobat Reader. (Bold print and italics added)

--NYScholar 18:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

In contradiction to the above-quoted copyright notice posted on the Nobel Foundation's Nobel Prize webpages, the so-called "license" provided by User "David Monniaux" indicates that he himself holds such a "license" or "copyright"; that is not the case and he has shown no evidence of having permission to use this image or to license its use. I've added the copyright notice that must be used if the Nobel Foundation does grant permission to use the images in Wikipedia articles and Wikipedia Commons above his "license" information on the image page. The "License" information provided by David Monniaux does not appear to me to be accurate or true:

Source: David Monniaux

Description: Original photograph of Nobel prize medal, belonging most probably to Edward Victor Appleton. Photographed at the University of Edinburgh.

License: Photo Copyright © 2005 David Monniaux

David Monniaux indicates in the above quotation from the image page that he himself owns the copyright or license to this image. That is not the case. (In Oct. 2005, another W user asked him for proof of a "clear license," and he did not reply at all.)

The Nobel Foundation owns the trademark and the copyright to all the images of all the Nobel medals (for each prize) and for the Nobel Prize logo. All the images of all the Nobel medals and the logo for the Nobel Prize ("the Nobel medal") are both trademark and copyright protected; they are not in the public domain, and using them for other than entirely "private" use (such as making one photocopy or printout for scholarship) is not within fair use of US copyright law. Posting them in Wikipedia articles and in Wikipedia Commons and thus throughout the internet is not a "private" use. Moreover, any use of them is to be governed by the Nobel Foundation's own copyright notice "exception," which indicates clearly that the fair use provision of US copyright law does not apply to the publishing (public dissemination of) images of the Nobel medal or images of a Nobel medal. The Nobel Foundation copyright notice requires written requests for permission to use all and any of those Nobel medal images and reserves the right to grant or not to grant any such requests.

Similar copyright violations seem to occur in other Wikipedia articles and templates using images of Nobel medals (in each prize category) and in Wikipedia Commons. --NYScholar 07:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that the tag "d|copyrighted" needs to be added to this image page and for the other image pages for individual Nobel prizes in the various fields and the ones (including this one) featured throughout the article for Nobel Prize and any other articles where these images of Nobel medals appear without proper written permission from the Nobel Foundation, including the template featured at the bottom of the article for Nobel Prize. --NYScholar 07:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use

In short, they cannot prevent fair use just because they say so. The point of fair use is that, for limited circumstances, no permission is required! We don't need the nobel foundation's permission for a fair use of the image of the prize. Now, there needs to be a fair use rationale for the use in articles like Alfred Nobel and Nobel Prize, but "cv" isn't a good speedy reason. It should be taken to Wikipedia:Copyright problems if its going to be deleted. Kevin_b_er 09:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Read US copyright law re: the provision of "fair use." Using trademarked logos in this manner in Wikipedia articles and in Wikipedia Commons is not within "fair use" and it is contrary to Wikipedia's own stated policies re: images that are copyrighted and trademarked by commercial entities (such as the Nobel Foundation, which does have commercial uses of those images: it licenses and sells them). The copyright notices (linked and quoted in my earlier comments above) take account of all uses of the images of the medals. The images are the property of the Nobel Foundation. Permission is required. Wikipedia is not entitled to use copyright-protected and trademarked logos and images owned by others who have restricted their use specifically unless permission is requested and granted by the copyright owners. Wikipedia users, in some cases, are claiming that they themselves own the licenses and copyrights to these images. They do not. Those who are claiming "fair use" are violating the copyright and trademark of the logo and the images of the medals. READ the copyright notices. Use of the content of the Nobel Foundation (the NobelPrize.org site) is copyright protected. READ all of what the notices say and read Wikipedia's own policies and US Copyright Law provisions. --NYScholar 09:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I read the copyright notice, and I'm tell you to read 17 U.S.C. § 107. Go also see Image:Microsoft_logotype.png, Image:Halliburton logo.gif, {{logo}}, and Fair use. The trademark doesn't matter either. Their copyright policy does not trump 17 U.S.C. § 107. Permission is not required Its the embodiment of fair use. If its used properly under copyright lawI would agree that if this image can be used under fair use, it should be taken out of the template and anywhere where a valid fair use rationale cannot be made. This should go to Wikipedia:Possibly_unfree_images or Wikipedia:Copyright problems Kevin_b_er 10:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of the Nobel Foundation's Nobel medal images is not within Fair Use provision of US Copyright law; such use requires written permission to be granted by the Nobel Foundation

The people uploading the images are making claims that they cannot substantiate. They do not even post copyright and trademark notices that identify the images are the property of the Nobel Foundation (as required by copyright law if such permission to use them in articles about the Nobel Prize or Nobel Prize winners is granted by the Nobel Foundation).

The already-quoted sections of the copyright and trademark notices posted by the Nobel Foundation on its Nobel Prize website is clear; it restricts its use and it is very clear that even in cases of what some might deem "fair use" (in articles about Alfred Nobel and the Nobel Prize winners), use of the copyrighted/trademarked images of the Nobel medal logo and the individual Nobel medals must have written permission which is up to the Nobel Foundation to grant or not to grant:

Permission in writing is required for:

Photos or Images of the Nobel Prize Medal

Permission to use an image or a photo of a Nobel Prize medal is only granted if the image is going to be used as an illustration to an editorial text about Alfred Nobel, the Nobel Prize or a Nobel Laureate.

An image of the Nobel Prize medal may, however, not be used on the cover of books, booklets or other printed matter, on posters, in exhibitions etc., nor for publicity or commercial purposes.

To apply for a permit, e-mail info@nobel.se. If permission is granted, ”®© The Nobel Foundation ” must be indicated.

Posting the images all over the internet in articles in Wikipedia that feature "Creative Commons"-type licenses (not granted by the copyright owners of the images) without first having written permission granted by the Nobel Foundation is not within the "fair use" provision of US copyright law. (Read the copyright information provided by Creative Commons, which is the creation of Lawrence Lessig, a Stanford U prof. of intellectual property law who knows what he is talking about; he is very clear that such licenses cannot violate copyright protections of the owners of the copyrights (in this case, the Nobel Foundation, as the copyright and trademark owner of these images). The Nobel Foundation grants "fair use" for "private" use (that is within the provision); "public" or "publishing" on the internet is not "private" use. Wikipedia cannot make its Creative Commons license take the place of copyright notices and copyright protections. Throughout Wikipedia's discussions of its policies about copyright that is quite clear. It is not up to individual Wikipedia editors and users without clear-cut administrative authority and knowledge of copyright policies to determine what is and is not "fair use." It is up to Wikipedia administrators to respect the rights of copyright owners (whose rights are violated if people use the images for circumstances that are not within the "fair use provision" of US Copyright Law and other international copyright conventions protecting those Nobel Foundation images).

By posting the tags, I've drawn this problem of what appears to be copyright and trademark violations to the attention of the administrators. What they do is not within my control. The same images as this one have already been marked for deletion in Wikipedia Commons and some have already been deleted by Wikipedia administrators. These have been misrepresented by the uploader(s) and have not all been deleted yet. If the Nobel Foundation grants its permission for their use in such articles by Wikipedia, then the images can be used. That might happen; but the permission must be requested and granted in writing. For more information see Creative Commons FAQ. It is copyright owners themselves who post Creative Commons licenses, not the other way around. The people uploading these images from the Nobel Foundation site (original source) do not have the right to do so; they claim that they do, but they do not. Some of their claims for posting images of these Nobel medals have already been denied by Wikipedia administrators in Wikipedia Commons deletion and speedy deletion cases. Some of these images have already been deleted from Wikipedia Commons for the same reasons that I have given about this image page in this talk page. --NYScholar 10:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The possible violations of copyright have been brought to the attention of the Nobel Foundation.

The contact address for requests for permission to use these images in Wikipedia articles and in Wikipedia Commons is provided in the linked copyright notices earlier. --NYScholar 10:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

FAIR USE in US Copyright Law is also bound by the US being a signatory to the Berne copyright conventions. For July 2006 policy re: Fair Use, see US Copyright Office and other recent postings. When in doubt, the US Copyright Office AND Wikipedia policies say, refrain from using copyrighted works until permission can be requested and granted and the situation clarified. One does not continue to post disputed copyrighted images. To do so is to invite legal challenges and possible legal action/suits. Wikipedia is very clear about trying to avoid such legal problems. --NYScholar 10:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed the db. We'll let the discussion reach consensus here, and if it is to be deleted, it can be deleted at that point. -- Samirधर्म 10:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy states to delete possible copyright infringements while they are being debated. Otherwise one risks bringing copyright infringement suits against Wikipedia. This is not a matter of "consensus" among users. It is a matter for discussion by Wikipedia administrators after they actually bother to look at the copyright notices on the Nobel Foundation and to read them as they are written, not as they are being re-written and re-interpretated by Wikipedia users who have posted the images. The opinion of the uploaders of the images is not a neutral opinion. --NYScholar 20:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The use of a fair use is quite common on wikipedia(and possibly overdone). The image may need to be scaled down, and we need to form a valid fair use rationale. The only articles that it really should potentially be used on is Alfred Nobel and Nobel Prize, with the latter especially and the former maybe. I hope to enlist some wikipedians more experianced with fair use rationales into this. I removed the image from several places where it was pure decoration and/or blatnatly against the fair use policy. Kevin_b_er 10:46, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It cannot be used in these articles until and unless the Nobel Foundation grants the writers permission to use the images. It's the trademark and copyright of the Nobel Foundation and the Nobel Foundation decides to whom it wants to grant such permission to feature its logo and its images of its Nobel medals. Its copyright notice does "trump" Wikipedia's users' claims of "fair use," since the uses it is being put to are not "fair use" and do require permission. Copyrights and trademarks have legal status and they need to be paid attention to, especially when previous uses of this trademarked and copyrighted Nobel Foundation and Nobel Prize logo and Nobel medal images have already been deleted by Wikipedia administrators in other articles and in Wikipedia Commons for the very same reasons (copyright violations; non "fair use.") I have no time left to deal with this matter; I've answered a query on my talk page. All the other queries by other editors about this problem may be found if one scrolls up to the top of this talk page and if one goes to the talk page of the uploader of this image. Other uploaders seem simply to have lied about their "license" and "copyright"; one took a photograph of the medal (he claims) and posted that under his own copyright notice. That was deleted by previous Wikipedia Commons administrators. --NYScholar 10:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The difference between us and the Commons is that the Commons does not allow fair use images at all. So even if this image can be under fair use, it cannot remain on the Commons at all. Now, as for this image itself, I think it can stay. However, I will echo Kevin and say that the image needs to be scaled down using photoshop or a similiar program. The reason why I think it can stay is that the photo of the medal itself was not from the Nobel website (Swedish), but taken by a private person not attached to the organization (a French national). I would also write up a very, very huge fair use rational and also keep it on just the two pages; about the Prize itself and Nobel. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 18:34, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use and lawsuits

This discussion is, excuse me, rather ridiculous.

First, there is a clear rationale for this medal to be "fair use" on pages directly related to the Nobel prize (Nobel prize, Alfred Nobel) — the pages on which I put it originally. There may be less of a rationale on other pages, I don't know.

Second, please tone down on the argumentation about lawsuits to the Foundation. I'm on the board of Wikimedia France, I also, from time to time, answer the Foundation's emails; and I can tell you that, frankly, copyright issues on "fair use" pictures are far and far between and anyway can be easily solved. In comparison, we have far more real problems with libel (an enormous one)... As for trademarks, the problems we get, in real life, are mostly not about using a company's logo to discuss that company, but about inadvertently using a trademarked name as if it were a common expression.

So, please. If you really want to help the Foundation, instead of acting of self-appointed cleansers of fair use images that have a good fair use rationale, please remove unsourced potentially libellious stuff from biographies of living people, please go to commons and remove copies of mangas or modern art.

As for the allegations: I did not allege I owned the full copyright to the picture. My assessment as explained originally on the page was that the artistic work of the medal was copyrighted by the sculptor, who died in the 1960s if I remember correctly. However, the medal is a tridimensional object and my photograph may be a derived work of the original work of art; that is, it is itself copyrighted both by the author of the original works (or its heirs or the company he worked for) and by the photographer. Thus, the need for the free license tags, which were apparently deleted by over-eager folks.

By the way, I don't appreciate the innuendo about taking a photograph of the medal. I definitely took the photograph of the medal in the place indicated. David.Monniaux 11:44, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

there is no "innuendo"; another Wikipedia user has posted his own photographs (or photographs that he claims are his own); please look at the other instances of the images whose presentation by the uploader(s) have previously been called into question and which have been deleted by Wikipedia administrators from articles and image pages. The use of the very images provided by the Nobel Foundation from its website without permission being granted first in writing (which "may" or may not be so granted) is a violation of the trademark and copyright notice posted by the Nobel Foundation. Whether or not David Monniaux "appreciate[s]" this being pointed out to him (by me and others) is not the issue. The issue is the violation of copyright and trademark notices restrictions placed on the use of this "logo" and "images" of Nobel medals. The presentation of the "license" by David Monniaux is misleading and incorrect. --NYScholar 19:34, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nobel website and copyright claims

[See the link to the copyright noticeposted on the webpages relating to the Nobel Medal by the Nobel Foundation. It is the source of my quotations above and below in my own comments about this matter in various sections of this talk page and on my own talk pages and in deletion-related comments pertaining to copyright infringement of the Nobel Foundation's registered copyright and/or infringement of its registered trademark. --NYScholar 19:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)] [Updated: My current talk page includes links to some pertinent resources. --NYScholar 23:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)]

The claims - extensively quoted - from the Nobel website are obviously limited to the materials presented on nobelprize.org. When the following is stated:

Portrait Photos of the Nobel Laureates
On application, the Nobel Foundation may grant a one-time, non-exclusive right to use a photo of a Nobel Laureate in a specific publication. Such a right does not include the right to sublicense uses of the photo or to reproduce the photo for distribution by any means or in other media.
To apply for a permit, e-mail info@nobel.se.
If permission is granted, "© The Nobel Foundation " must be indicated.

It should be obvious that the Nobel Foundation does not need to be consulted to publish any photograph of one of the 400+ winners, but only those to which the Foundation holds copyright. When the following is read in similar context:

Photos or Images of the Nobel Prize Medal
Permission to use an image or a photo of a Nobel Prize medal is only granted if the image is going to be used as an illustration to an editorial text about Alfred Nobel, the Nobel Prize or a Nobel Laureate.
An image of the Nobel Prize medal may, however, not be used on the cover of books, booklets or other printed matter, on posters, in exhibitions etc., nor for publicity or commercial purposes.
To apply for a permit, e-mail info@nobel.se.
If permission is granted, ”®© The Nobel Foundation ” must be indicated.

...it obviously pertains to photos provided by the Foundation in general, and those on the website in particular.

Although I raised the question of whether the photo was encumbered by Nobel's copyright on the medal artwork itself (excluding trademark questions), it was more out of an interest in whether the photo could be deemed "completely Free" due to the age of the medal itself.

There's no question that this photo can be used in places where it would be appropriate under Wikipedia's rather conservative fair use guidelines. The resolution also does not need to be decreased - the fineness of resolution and focus is clearly due to David photography skill, and is his creative contribution which he holds copyright to. The only question is how clearly the current copyright status of the original work (the medal itself) can be stated for the benefit of downstream reusers of the content. KWH 18:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

KWH is incorrect [see my use of bold print and italics in explanations above and below]; the Nobel Foundation reserves the right (of its trademark and copyrighted Nobel medal logo and the images of all the Nobel medals ("a Nobel medal") to grant or not to grant permission to use it. The procedure is set forth. KWH is twisting the notice to make it mean what he/she wants. The intention of the Nobel Foundation to receive requests for use of these images in articles about Alfred Nobel, the Nobel Prize, and specific Nobel Prize laureates is very clearly stated, and it says that it may (or may not) "grant" such permission after the request is made in writing.

<<Permission in writing is required for:

Photos or Images of the Nobel Prize Medal

Permission to use an image or a photo of a Nobel Prize medal is only granted if the image is going to be used as an illustration to an editorial text about Alfred Nobel, the Nobel Prize or a Nobel Laureate.

An image of the Nobel Prize medal may, however, not be used on the cover of books, booklets or other printed matter, on posters, in exhibitions etc., nor for publicity or commercial purposes.

To apply for a permit, e-mail info@nobel.se. If permission is granted, ”®© The Nobel Foundation ” must be indicated. [bold print added (again)] >>

Any kind of permission is conditional (see the if clause and the prior statement that request is writing are required) upon the action of the Nobel Foundation in response to requests received in writing. That procedure is the perogative of the Nobel Foundation as stated in its notices on its websites relating to the Nobel Prize (nobelprize.org) administered by the Nobel Foundation. The public relations office of the Nobel Foundation deals with such requests in writing. If one wants to use the logo and/or images of the Nobel medal(s), one has to request permission in writing and wait until it is granted (if it is) to use the logo and the images. US Copyright Law provision of fair use (already cited above in my previous comments) makes clear that in cases like this one, one needs to request permission as directed. It is not "impracticable" to do so. It is practicable — and necessary, due to the copyright notices posted by the Nobel Foundation. It may or may not decide to grant such requests and it says that one must "apply for a permit" and that "If permission is granted," then (and only then) one must put the notice ”®© The Nobel Foundation ” on the instances in which "the logo and the images" are being used. That indicates that it is "the logo and the images" are still the property of the Nobel Foundation with registered copyright held by the Nobel Foundation. Even in such cases, the Nobel Foundation is not granting any kind of "free license" to redistribute the logo and the images ad infinitum as occurs with Wikipedia articles and Wikipedia Commons images (given the "license" and "disclaimer" that they include). --NYScholar 19:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm adding some additional information about the "Nobel Foundation trademarks" quoted from the Nobel Foundation website (not the" Nobel Prize Foundation," as the image description currently states); symbols for registered trademark, trademark, and copyright need to be used when the items are mentioned in published text (whether published in print or online formats):

Trademarks
The names, titles, building images, trademarks, service marks and logos that appear on the Site are registered and unregistered marks of the Nobel Foundation, including but not limited to Nobel Prize®, the Nobel Medal® design mark, Nobelprize.org™, Nobel Museum®, Nobelmuseet®, Nobel Media™ and Nobel Symposia™ (collectively, the “Nobel Foundation trademarks”). The Nobel Foundation is most restrictive in permitting use of these trademarks, and you may not use the Nobel Foundation trademarks without prior written permission from the Nobel Foundation. (Added bold print).

"Fair use" provisions pertaining to copyrights and to trademarks differ, as do the laws regulating and governing copyrights and trademarks. I have added links on my current talk page to resources that people can explore further for more information. I myself have not got time to debate this any further with anyone in Wikipedia and I am not inclined to do so. In my comments in this talk page and others relating to the issue of the images and photographs of the "Nobel Medal® design mark" and of the "Nobel Medal®" I have already quoted other pertinent passages from the Nobel Foundation website copyright notices, in the html and the pdf versions.

My comments pertain to the English version of Wikipedia and to any other language versions using the same or similar images and photographs of the Nobel Medal® design mark and Nobel Medal® (in any field) in any language, in the context of international and national copyright and trademark laws relating to each language. I do not know whether or not the Nobel Foundation has registered its trademarks in the United States; the United States is, however, a signatory to the latest Berne Convention pertaining to copyrights and trademarks and various signatories have mutual agreements to observe one another's copyright and trademark laws. (I have added the registered symbol following the passage quoted above by way of example; the trademark is registered.

As I have already stated several times very clearly in various talk pages relating to the Nobel Medal® design mark and Nobel Medal® images and relating to photographs of a Nobel Medal®, I do not use the e-mail feature in Wikipedia; I do not engage in e-mail correspondence with Wikipedia about Wikipedia. In my view, my comments on the talk pages suffice in raising my questions about the uses of the Nobel Medal® design mark and Nobel Medal® images and photographs and photographs of each individual field's Nobel Medal®; these should be clear enough to administrators in Wikipedia. As I have said in my own talk page, I have not got time to debate these matters any further. I've provided links to additional resources in my current talk page so that other people can explore them as needed. Due to concerns of time and other concerns, I will not be able to respond to or to participate in any further discussion about these Wikipedia articles and images.) --NYScholar 23:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Permission in writing is required for"

Notice the large font of the print in the above-linked copyright notice relating to photographs and images of the Nobel medal logo and Nobel medals: <<Permission in writing is required for:>> is in very large print. People choose to ignore it at their own risk.

To apply for a permit, e-mail info@nobel.se. If permission is granted, ”®© The Nobel Foundation ” must be indicated. (bold print and italics added)

is crystal clear too.

That Wikipedia users who have uploaded these images are unwilling to follow these directions and that they continue to claim that these directions do not pertain to them constitute infringements of this copyright notice (See copyright infringement.) --NYScholar 20:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

N.B.: It is quite possible and even perhaps likely that the Nobel Foundation would "grant" its permission for the Nobel Medal logo and images of the Nobel Medal(s) to be used in Wikipedia articles on Alfred Nobel, the Nobel Prize, and individual Nobel Prize laureates, but one needs to request such permission in writing in order for that to happen. --NYScholar 20:45, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I've added the corroborating information requiring permission in writing for the use of photographs and images of the Nobel Medal logo and individual Nobel Medals in the image page "license" description, because what its uploader has provided is still not only inaccurate but misleading. He intentionally disregards the notice, despite its clear statement requiring permission in writing. The photograph that he has uploaded is protected by a copyright registered to and by the Nobel Foundation. His source of the photograph is probably the Nobel Foundation website. (It is, thus, not "his" photograph, or the photographer's photograph, but the photograph owned and licensed by the Nobel Foundation.) As such, his use must be governed by its (the Nobel Foundation's) copyright notices. --NYScholar 20:56, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is the .pdf version of the Nobel Foundation's copyright notice; it also prohibits alterations to the photographs and images of the Nobel Medal provided by the Nobel Foundation's Nobel Prize-related websites (incl. those linked via the Swedish Academy, which awards the Nobel Prize in Literature). --NYScholar 21:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how how else to tell you this, permission is not required in the use if used properly under fair use. No matter how many times you repeat that the nobel foundation requires written permission, it may not be required under certain circumstances. Copyright law already fully restricts what can be done with creative work. The nobel foundation simple states the process for which they will grant a limited license to use the work. Fair use is the principal where no fair use is required. For this, the image, if used properly, is not copyright infringement. Read the first sentence of Fair use, which is "Fair use is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders, such as use for scholarship or review." Please don't just repeat the nobel foundations copyright statement if you can't understand the principal of fair use. Your entire basis for opposition is that the nobel foundation can deny fair use, which is plainly wrong. Kevin_b_er 21:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


NYScholar - I think that it is clear that you are getting something incorrect here. You say "His source of the photograph is probably the Nobel Foundation website." I believe this is incorrect. I believe, based on his statements, that David Monniaux took the photograph himself of a medal on public display at University of Edinburgh. The copyright in the photograph belongs to him. We do not have a civil reason to doubt him. The photograph is a derivative of the original medal created by Lindberg in 1902, and whether that medal is still copyrighted is a very good question. For the photographs on the Nobel website, which the Nobel Foundation owns the copyrights to, they can clearly enforce those terms, although it is still possible that, if someone copied a photo from that site, they might still succeed in claiming fair use in a court case. KWH 21:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

He is no more entitled to photograph the medal and to post the photograph (a derivative image of a copyright-protected work) than he is to use the Nobel Foundation's own photographs and images; the Nobel Foundation owns all the Nobel medals too. READ the pdf version of the copyright notices pertaining to them. I've already linked to them. I'm out of time for dealing with this matter. I've posted the information. Please read it. Please also re-read the July 2006 US Copyright Law "fair use" provision, previously linked. There was an editing conflict and I have not got time to reconstruct my comments done while KWH was posting. Wikipedia policy is to AVOID any potential copyright infringement. There are plenty of instances where Wikipedia discusses these policies; please read them; I haven't time to post any more of those links (again). --NYScholar 21:56, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, please do not waste any more of your time posting the same links and text again. KWH 22:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I also hate to have to point this out again, but corporations/foundations can claim anything they want. This doesn't make it so. Shell babelfish 00:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Fair use", Berne etc.

I remind everybody, in particular NYScholar, that "fair use" is a legal exception to copyright that works even if the copyright holder asserts "all rights reserved".

The Berne Convention does allow for exceptions to copyright, known as the Berne three-step test; the precise exceptions allowed are a matter of the law of the member countries. I believe our use on Wikipedia falls both within the three-step test and within the traditional "fair use" doctrine of the US. David.Monniaux 22:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ideas

Alright, would something like this and [9] work. Both image sources either are in the public domain or have not restrictions on how to use the work. I know there is more examples I can think of, but I want yall to think about this and comment before I trek on any further. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 23:26, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

NVM, the Pearson photo is used already in Wikipedia. Stiil, what do you think about the photo of the medal taken by the US NIH (first link)? User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 23:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Also, this photo will not work, since it still has the permission from the Nobel Foundation attached to this photo, and it was unknown when it was taken. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 23:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
You can always contact them. For an example of how permission to use copywritten images can work, see the article on the United Methodist Church and click on the logo. Orville Eastland 23:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
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