Talk:Nishan-e-Haider

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Category: OPERATIONAL (Awarded to members of the Armed Forces during times of conflict.) Defination: It is the highest gallantry award and is the senior most among civil and military awards. It is admissible to all ranks for acts of heroism/ conspicuous courage in circumstances of extreme danger or devotion to the country in the presence of the enemy on land, at sea or in the air.

Please note the officialily Nishan-e-Haidert is not conditional to the sex (male or female) and either the person nominated for this award (Ghazi) live or martyred (Shaheed).

Contents 1 Ali 2 Insistence on placing the Ali material 3 Nishan-e-Hayder refers Imam Ali 4 Epithet of Ali

[edit] Ali

Zora, You can see all what Striver wrote here below. Also User:Zaidiwaqas is the one who introduced this. He is Pakistani and he should know best. I worte him. Let us wait for his response. For now It is strongly believed that way. Until you can prove otherwise than we will remove it. I advise you to calm down a little. Maybe you are putting too much efforts. I really apprecite your efforst since you look like a very good editor. But please be nice to Striver. We do not want to lose him becasue of you. 129. 04:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

As I said I do not want to get in revert wars. I iwll wait for User:Zaidiwaqas answer before I proceed with reverts in thsi article. Although all indications show that you are not right by reverting. I still do not understand your sensitivity to Haydar's name. 129. 05:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Zora: Not established that Pakistan's top military award "honors Ali" -- that seems unlikely [1]

rv -- Haidar means lion; Ali may be called a lion, but that doesn't mean every "haidar" is Ali [2]

Shi'a ask:

QUESTION 10

Nishan -Haidar is given to the persons who loose his life for his country and do a great work for Pakistan. This neshaan(sign) is on Ali name. Can the sunni's tell me any Sign of this type in any country of Muslim Umma?

Sunni anwers:

i dont know what you mean in here. i dont know if other countries have this nishaan. but the nishan e haider is given for bravery in the battlefield and it represent the bravery of hazrat ali (ra), surely he were asadullah (lion of allah swt)

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=60863

--Striver 00:47, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Now it was to be done that colonial ringleader--United States by taking lesson from it would cause to stop the repression and atrocities of Hindus and Zionist against Muslim people and oppressed nations besides stretching the hand of intimacy in order to ensure world peace but it didn't do so and is busy in preparations of making incursion on the whole world in general and Islamic world in particular by considering a person the terrorist with out any contemplation. And for this purpose, is spending all its energies, which is complete injustice and oppression. But according to

modesty of OIC was to be awakened but it has adopted meaningful silence which is condemnable. In fact devil has gripes of Pakistan's being the 'Fort of Islam' and 'Atomic Power' because all oppressed nations and Muslim people consider Pakistan their last prop. At present military leadership which greatest award is 'Nishan-e-Haider', is ruling the country so it should with Zarb-e-Haidery (Haidery strike) and Jur'at-e-Haidery (Haidery Courage) foil each and every conspiracy and mischief of United States--today's 'Marhab-e-Antir'. If this would not be done the achievement of the rights of oppressed nations and Muslim people would become very difficult.

We on the auspicious occasion of 3-day of Jashan-e-Murtazawi' pledge to follow this saying of Ameer al Momineen Ali Ibne Abi Talib (A.S):

'Be the enemy of oppressor and supporters of oppressed'.

Khakpa'e Ahle Islam Agha Syed Hamid Ali shah Moosavi Chief of Tehreik Nafaz-e-Fiqh-e-Jafariya, Pakistan. (TNFJ)

http://www.tnfj.org.pk/jashnemurtazawimessage.htm

--Striver 02:16, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

He made it clear that Nishan-e-Haider is the biggest award for bravery in Pakistan, therefore every Pakistani in general, and the armed forces of Pakistan in particular are under the obligation to be commensurate with every aspect of the personality of Maula-e-Kainaat Hazrat Ali (A.S.) whose words should be written in golden words in which he has said: I, Ali, is not bothered whether death comes on me or I jump on death, I love death more than the love a child keeps with mother’s milk.

http://www.tnfj.org/sec/rnd85.htm

--Striver 02:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Fuzair,

Haidar is one of the famous titles [laqab pl. ilqaab] of Hazrat 'Ali ibn Abi Talib karam Allah wajhu'l karim, the son-in law of The Beloved Prophet and the fourth of the Righteous Khalifahs and the Amir of the Muslims and the Imam of Walayat. He is famous for his valour and bravery and was given the title of "Asad Ullah al Ghalib" by The Prophet of Allah (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) which means "The Victorious Lion of God".

Thus he has come to be identified with valour and the utmost acts of bravery and so the highest Pakistani medal is named after him, "The nishan [sign] of Haidar." i.e. the person who wins the nishan e Haidar has shown signs of extraordinary courage reminiscent of Hazrat Haidar e Karar himself [alayhisalam]. In fact he was known by this name of Haidar in his own lifetime. May Allah send his blessings on this great Imam and make us his devotees till the Day of Judgement.

All true Muslims love Hazrat Ali. I am a Sunni but I have no problems in saying with pride:

Ali Imam e man ast o manam ghulam i Ali

Hazar jan i girami fida ba naam i Ali!

Haydari-am , Qalandar-am mast-am

Banda-i- Murtaza Ali hast-am!

That is why the highest honour is pakistan is named after Imam Ali and called nishan-e-Haidar.

-)

Hope that helps.

[3]

--Striver 02:25, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Insistence on placing the Ali material

Zaidiwaqas may be a Pakistani, but he's also a Shi'a. Quotes from people in chat rooms are no evidence for public policy. You guys may be right. But given that it's the Shi'a editors pushing this, and given behavior I've seen in the past, I would like some indication that the Pakistani government says outright that this award honors Ali. Zora 04:36, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

The medal does in fact take its name from an Ali, just not the caliph. Rather, Ali Haider, an eighteenth century military hero. I have removed the Ali ibn Ali Talib claim and added the now verifiable fact. Pepsidrinka 19:02, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Good jobb! I applaud taking action and finding the truth, instead of whining "i dont care, you are Shi'a and hence you can stuff it". I hope other learn from your example. --Striver 22:43, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nishan-e-Hayder refers Imam Ali

As clear from discussion by my Sunni bro Fuzair above, i again repeat my comments.

NISHAN-E-HAYDER un-doubtfully refers Imam Ali.

Imam Ali is respectable in both two largest sects of Islam. Shais & Sunni. I am Shia and a proud Pakistani and so this does not mean that i am misguiding public by attributing something wrong with Imam Ali.

As far as Zora statements of any Governement website verifying this, so there is no official website descrbing medals over here. The website describing medals by soem Edward Haynes is wrongly describing that Nishan-e-Hayder belongs to Ali Haider. This info is very common over here that Nishan-e-Hayder refers to emblem of Imam Ali. Even we Pakistanis from our primary classes are being taught in our text book that Nishan-e-Hayder refers to Imam Ali.

Also Pakistani Forces on the national day repeats Slogan.

Slogan: (By one of the Soldier) Naraye-Haidery

Answer by all Soldiers. Ya Ali.

This Ali is Imam Ali. Ask anyone.

I would like to add one more statement that the medal is star shaped. STAR refers Muhammad, Ali, Fatima binte Muhammad, Hasan ibn Ali, Husayn (the Panjeetans).

Zaidi 17:24, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I find all this hard to believe. Pakistan is predominantly Sunni, and is currently heavily influenced by Deobandi/Wahabi/Islamist/jihadi types who have been killing Shi'a. Are they going to be yelling Ya Ali?

I doubt it.

As for the star-shaped nonsense -- medals the world over are star-shaped, and have nothing to do with the Ahlul Bayt. Assertions like this do not inspire trust. Zora 01:46, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Epithet of Ali

The web page you guys keep citing says that the medal is named after Haider Ali and adds in parentheses that Haider is an epithet of Ali. Since Haider Naik was named Haider before he renamed himself Haider Ali, all you can say is that Haider took his second name in honor of Ali. The first he already had. The fact that the medal honors Haider Ali and Haider Ali honored Ali ibn Abi Talib doesn't mean that the medal honors Ali! The "honoring" is not transitive. Someone could name a medal after me for my achievements (the Zora Medal for sitting in a chair typing) and I personally honor the Jewish philospher Spinoza (among others), but that does not therefore mean that the Zora Medal honors Spinoza. Zora 00:49, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

A Zora medal. What's next, pigs flying? <g> Pepsidrinka 00:58, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Zora medal will be awarded the medal in due time when she removes the anger blindfold that is blinding her from seeing the pigs flying:). Zora I do not understand why you are going so far in your anger against everything coming from Striver. It looks like you even do not read the links. so I am copying from the website [4].

Pakistani military awards for gallantry ‘in the face of the enemy’ include four decorations. The highest award, Nishan-i-Haider (Haider being an epithet of the gallant Muslim Caliph Ali) is an order in itself, while there are three classes in the order of Jur’at (Valour):

(a) Nishan-i-Haider (Emblem of Haider). Awarded ‘to those who have performed acts of greatest heroism or most conspicuous courage in circumstances of extreme danger and have shown bravery of the highest order or devotion to the country, in the presence of the enemy on land, at sea or in the air.’ (Conferrable on all ranks.)

Notice that here they used the word epithet but mistakenly did not say Haydar-el-Karrar they only mentioned his real name Haidar that is given to him by his mother.

As to Haidar Nayk changing his name to Haidar Ali just read the article in wikipedia and the references therein.

You also seem to have broken the link to ref 2 to go to ref 1 in the main article of Nishan-E-Haider. Zora, please calm down, take a deep breath, drink water, take a break and befriend Striver:) The Peace Worshipper^{Talk to TPW129.} 17:51, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Imam Ali said "Between hearing and watching there is a difference of three fingers (eyes and ears)". So please what u read in newspaper just dont accept it as sole fact. i accept that pakistan is influenced with Sunni Islam, but to your information there are 25 percentage of Shias present over here. And 25% of population consisting of 162419946 people means 40604986. 40 million. not a joke.? we are present over here with full rights to observe our religion and with full liberty. terrorism do happens over here in the shape of bomb blast but is equally condemn by all the sects. Zaidi 21:27, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

About Pakistani military yelling YA ALI, there is a hisory with miracles over here. Not long before, during 1968 war with neighbor country a sword (tailed comet) appeared over the sky of Lahore. Everyone named it Zulfiqar. (Sword of Imam ALI). On the second day Pak Army outclassed enemies. Zaidi 21:27, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Zaidi, now you're seeing Shi'a omens in the sky and asserting that God intervenes in support of Pakistan. How are we to trust anything you report? Zora 23:42, 11 March 2006 (UTC)