User talk:NikoSilver/Archive 8

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1 Warning
2 Sources
- 2.1 More...
- 2.2 ...and more...
- 2.3 New
- 2.4 Newer
- 2.5 Up to now
3 By the way
4 Hey Sandy
5 Help...
6 Phi Phi pics
7 ???
8 Cretan War
9 Typo-Tipo...
10 You malakas!
11 Cooperation board launched
12 Something you will get jealous of >D
13 Nationalistic botanists
14 My RfA
15 Kaltsef
16 Greetings
17 Janissaries
18 Template use
19 Request
20 By a London-based agent of the E.Y.Π.
21 Irrendentist template
22 Θέλεις μπουζούκια; Πήγαινε...
23 Email
24 Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Mitsos
25 Image:HistMac.gif
26 Congtratulations
27 ok
28 Thanks to all
29 Template:Turkic-speaking
30 APOLYOMAI!!!
31 Σωστος!
32 Thanks!
33 Family Names
34 Haha
35 Re:
36 Hey
37 Eυχαριστώ
38 Votestacking and WP:POINT
39 Re:RfA
40 THANK YOU
41 Template
42 Hey man
43 History of Greece WikiProject Newsletter - Issue IV - December 2006
44 Wikiprojects
45 :)
46 My Request for Adminship
47 Мојот проблем со твојте модификации
48 Your signature
49 Quality press
50 Εθνικισμός

[edit] Warning

You have recently added highly provocative content to the Wikipedia page Image:Ferretti 68'.jpg, which is likely to make other Wikipedians envious and thereby provide scandal to them ([1]). You are now being asked to reconsider this type of behavior. You are welcome to continue covering the topic of luxury yachts in Wikipedia, but instead of just writing about them you should consider actually inviting a few fellow Wikipedians on one. Please see Wikipedia's retribution policy, which states that Wikipedia is communism and that if luxury yachts are not shared in a brotherly fashion with fellow Wikipedians, they risk being swallowed whole by a giant shark some day.

Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Ha! If we do that in December, these are definitely going to freeze off! •NikoSilver• 15:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

This is your last warning. If you continue being selfish, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia and all your possessions confiscated by the Supreme Cabal Regime of the English Wikipedia in the name of the brotherly spirit. Duja► 16:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Trouble is, Duja, can you actually steer the thing? We might still need him onboard, you know. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. No. Can you? We can still enslave him instead of throwing him to sharks. Duja► 16:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Did it occur to any of you that since I said I took that photo, I couldn't have been onboard but on the port-side? But then again, I could have been on a bigger one... And, no, you can't enslave da captain. You have to ask his wife first. :-) •NikoSilver• 19:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm.... I had heard somebody had bought the British queen's yacht, now we know who ;-) Regarding your question sorry for awnsering so late, I'm quite oberated by true-life work, unfortunately :-( I've been looking your article, great work. As for info. you may (or may not) find interesting, 1) The group's shareholders have deliberated in September to put in the Italian stock exchange a maximum of 45 million of shares, for a value each of 0.02 euros. Up to the 35% of the group may in this way be ceded. At the moment the 70% of the group is controlled by Permira [2] And see also this press release in English, on how Permira bought Ferretti in 2002.[3] And the full Business Week partly mentioned through the Ferretti website [4]. For very new info, Palmira, appears to have just sold Ferretti to Candover, see the Times, Oct. 28 [5]. Hope this is of some use. Ciao,--Aldux 23:17, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Shall I paste them here? - Francis Tyers · 14:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Haha! :)) - Francis Tyers · 14:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

You may also be interested in this! •NikoSilver• 17:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Just take care you don't end up like this, the two of you. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

:) - Francis Tyers · 15:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Ha! Just links to all 400 please. Then I'll just drop a dozen more (courtesy of you-know-who) to make you search until the end of time! •NikoSilver• 14:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I removed the http:// on some of those, but there was not an easier way to do the edit conflict. I'm getting RSI :/ - Francis Tyers · 16:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

http://www.cs.earlham.edu/~dusko/language.html
http://babel.uoregon.edu/yamada/guides/macedonian.html
http://www.asu.edu/clas/reesc/cli/ohrid1.htm
http://www.unc.edu/~bbiljana/MKDtutorial.html
home.uchicago.edu/~vfriedm/courses.html
chronicle.uchicago.edu/981112/friedman.shtml
www.indiana.edu/~reeiweb/index/southeast.shtml
www.auburn.edu/~mitrege/cv-big.html
www.lib.virginia.edu/subjects/slavic/maclang.html
black.clarku.edu/~seesa/HTMLpages/Publications2000interest.html
www.indiana.edu/~bulletin/iub/coas/2006-2008/slavic.shtml
www.libraries.psu.edu/tas/cataloging/train/practice3.htm
www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~bjoseph/NaylorLectures/NaylorBrochure(2002).pdf
www.diplomacy.edu/DiploNews/issue37.asp
http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/briefing/daily_briefings/1991/9110/161.html -- calls it 'Greek with Slavic elements' lol
collegecatalog.uchicago.edu/archives/catalog99-00/htm/Ling99.html
babel.ling.northwestern.edu/~rajka/syllabus.pdf
www.american.edu/TED/macedon.htm
www.law.nyu.edu/eecr/vol10num4/constitutionwatch/macedonia.html
www.cla.auburn.edu/faculty/research/news.htm
www.haverford.edu/relg/sells/reports/ruga.htm
www.uoregon.edu/~delancey/courses/211/assign211.html
www.international.ucla.edu/euro/article.asp?parentid=22991
www.uwm.edu/News/report/old/dec95/9794.html
dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/democracy/1994_hrp_report/94hrp_report_eur/Macedonia.html
www.columbia.edu/itc/sipa/U6868x01/client_edit/drivers.pdf
www1.umn.edu/humanrts/ins/macedo95.pdf
adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2000IAUSS..24E..65M
fletcher.tufts.edu/research/2005/STRAUSS.pdf
www.slavicreview.uiuc.edu/vol55.html
indylaw.indiana.edu/humanrights/publications/bulletinv4n1.pdf
www.haverford.edu/relg/sells/reports/mazowieckispecial_13dec94_2.htm
www.du.edu/~etuttle/misc/europe.htm
pbosnia.kentlaw.edu/projects/kosovo/tripreports/june99_macedonia.htm
http://www2.hawaii.edu/~lgbti/Suck%20My%20Nation%20%20%20%20Masculinity,%20Ethnicity%20and%20the%20Politics%20of%20(Homo)sex%20.pdf
www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/sept_11/state_042.htm
https://drum.umd.edu/dspace/bitstream/1903/2407/1/umi-umd-2270.pdf
www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/Work/deadtree2.html
dcc2.bumc.bu.edu/richardl/IH820/Resource_materials/Drug_use_survey_in_Macedonia1.doc
www.sbaer.uca.edu/research/sma/1999/31.pdf
www.uga.edu/cits/documents/html/xcnews40.htm
www.usc.edu/schools/college/vhi/vhf-new/Files/Other/CollectingTestimoniesWorldwide.pdf
www.ems.psu.edu/~williams/print/claspak1.htm
timss.bc.edu/pirls2001i/pdf/encyclopedia.pdf
ced.appstate.edu/resources/documents/annualreports/LRE_0506.pdf
ling.lll.hawaii.edu/faculty/stampe/Linguistics/lgsworld.html
www.defac.ac.uk/rcds/CSRC/documents/balkans/csrc_mpf.2004-07-22.4933876394/04(15)-Chap4-JP.pdf
www.taslib.ox.ac.uk/Subject.pdf
www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/saoghal/mion-chanain/en/
www.rceal.cam.ac.uk/Publications/Working/Vol9/Lazarova.pdf
www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/alb07n.htm
www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/Kosovo-Current_News66.html
www.corpus.bham.ac.uk/PCLC/CL-Balazic-063-pap.doc
www.intstudies.cam.ac.uk/centre/cps/documents_macedonia_selfgovern.html
pcmlp.socleg.ox.ac.uk/text/minority-languages.pdf
www.taslib.ox.ac.uk/maclinks.htm
www.lshtm.ac.uk/ecohost/see/Inf%20review.pdf
www.eurolang.mq.edu.au/macedonian/
crlc.anu.edu.au/seminars/series1_2002html.html
www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/syllabus_hsc/pdf_doc/macedonianc_sup.doc
www.nmr.vic.edu.au/lote/macedonian.php
online.hss.uts.edu.au/media_map/client.php?Assigned_To=az&Sub_Category_ID=t&Client_ID=89
www.asie.unimelb.edu.au/Register/Register5_Macquarie%20University.pdf
www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/index.html?page=31711&pid=28558
www.carlton-p.schools.nsw.edu.au/Programs_And_Policies.htm
www.whatworks.edu.au/3_3_6_3_3.htm
www.educ.utas.edu.au/users/tle/JOURNAL/ARTICLES/Chan/Chan.html
wallaby.vu.edu.au/adt-VVUT/uploads/approved/adt-VVUT20060426.160820/public/01front.pdf
wallaby.vu.edu.au/adt-VVUT/uploads/approved/adt-VVUT20060426.160820/public/08conclusion.pdf
www.unimelb.edu.au/infoserv/lee/htm/carlton_cafes.htm
arts.anu.edu.au/student_information/annrep01.pdf
unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN016084.pdf
www.un.org/icty/transe82/050401IA.htm
unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN003705.htm
unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN016129.pdf
www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/bos-ii050309e.htm
www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2006/wom1533.doc.htm
unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN019225.pdf
unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/CAIMED/UNPAN019323.pdf
unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/NISPAcee/UNPAN008363.pdf
unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN018345.pdf
unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/NISPAcee/UNPAN008415.pdf
unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN018346.pdf
unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/nispacee/unpan005082.pdf
unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN016469.pdf
www.un.org/documents/ga/docs/55/a55338.pdf
unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/NISPAcee/UNPAN008101.pdf
www.un.org/esa/agenda21/natlinfo/countr/macedonia/industry.pdf
www.un.org/icty/transe54/050301IT.htm
unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN012407.pdf
unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN014896.pdf
www.un.org/icty/transe54/050322IT.htm
www.un.org/documents/ga/docs/55/a5541.pdf
www.ear.europa.eu/macedonia/main/documents/Questions_AnswersEng.pdf
http://www.delmkd.ec.europa.eu/en/eu_and_fyrom/SEI/pdf/PRAQ%20III%20-%20Regional%20Programme%20on%20Quality%20Assurance%20-%20final%20r.pdf
www.delmkd.ec.europa.eu/en/information_sources/eu_information_centre.htm
ec.europa.eu/europeaid/projects/eidhr/pdf/report-sfcg-final-99-0491.pdf
www.delmkd.ec.europa.eu/en/whatsnew/2005/14%20Statistical%20System%20-%20global%20assessment%202004.pdf
www.ear.europa.eu/publications/main/news-a1b2zb3d4.htm
www.ear.europa.eu/publications/main/news-a1b2zb3b4.htm
http://www.delmkd.ec.europa.eu/en/eu_and_fyrom/SEI/pdf/Implementation%20of%20EU%20Training%20Strategy%20with%20Operational%20plan.pdf
www.delmkd.ec.europa.eu/en/whatsnew/2004/MK%20SAP%202004.pdf
www.delmkd.ec.europa.eu/en/whatsnew/2004/SAP%20Annual%20Reports.htm
http://www.delmkd.ec.europa.eu/en/information_sources/newsletters/pdf/EuropeanNEWSLETTER%20October%202002%20EN.pdf
http://www.ear.europa.eu/publications/main/news-a1c2t3d4.htm
http://www.ear.europa.eu/publications/main/documents/2003_10.pdf
www.delmkd.cec.europa.eu/en/information_sources/eNL/Electronic_NewsUpdate041004.htm
http://www.ear.europa.eu/publications/main/documents/newsbulletinjune2005_000.pdf
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:52004PC0204:FI:HTML
www.ear.europa.eu/projects/main/documents/IT_Equip_TD.pdf
http://forum.europa.eu/Public/irc/dsis/balkan/library?l=/monitoring_observation/census_1994/mac_rap_juin_95/_EN_1.0_&a=d
http://ec.europa.eu/comm/avpolicy/extern/fyrom.pdf
http://forum.europa.eu/Public/irc/dsis/statcanwestbalkan/library?l=/framework_candidate/assessment_reports/assessment_2001_4/_EN_1.0_&a=d
http://eumc.europa.eu/eumc/material/pub/comparativestudy/CS-Legislation-en.pdf
http://www.delmkd.ec.europa.eu/en/eu_and_fyrom/pdf/Aproximation%20of%20the%20legislation%20of%20RM%20with%20that%20of%20EU-eng.pdf
http://www.ear.europa.eu/publications/main/documents/EARAnnualReport2003.pdf
http://europa.eu/estatref/info/sdds/en/hrst/hrst_kscc-04-003.pdf
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/pas/phare/programmes/multi-bene/applications/doc/publications/170.pdf
http://www.coe.int/t/e/human_rights/minorities/3._co-operation_activities/1._co-operation_activities/2._stability_pact_activities/PDF_SP_NDR(2002)009%20Preliminary_Report_FYROM.pdf
http://www.coe.int/t/e/legal_affairs/legal_co-operation/police_and_internal_security/OHRID%20Agreement%2013august2001.asp
http://www.coe.int/T/E/human_rights/Ecri/1-ECRI/3-General_themes/3-Legal_Research/1-National_legal_measures/FYROM/Fyrom%20SR.asp
http://www.coe.int/t/dg3/romatravellers/documentation/Education/RaykovareporteducationSkopje2002_en.asp
http://jp.coe.int/CEAD/JP/default.asp?WorkPlanID=52
jp.coe.int/CEAD/JP/default.asp?WorkPlanID=52
www.venice.coe.int/docs/2003/CDL(2003)019-e.pdf
http://www.coe.int/t/e/human_rights/ecri/1-ECRI/2-Country-by-country_approach/FYROM/Ex_Republique_Yougoslave_de_Macedoine%203e%20rapport%20-%20Macedonien.pdf
http://www.coe.int/t/e/human_rights/ecri/5-Archives/1-ECRI's_work/5-CBC_Second_reports/The_Former_Yugoslav_Republic_of-Macedonia_CBC_2.asp
http://www.coe.int/t/dg3/romatravellers/documentation/Education/KolomparSept2002_en.asp
http://www.coe.int/t/e/human_rights/ecri/5-Archives/1-ECRI's_work/1-Country_by_country/CBC1-Former%20Yugoslav%20Republic%20Macedonia.pdf
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assembly.coe.int/Documents/WorkingDocs/doc97/edoc7728.htm
http://www.coe.int/t/e/human_rights/Minorities/2._FRAMEWORK_CONVENTION_(MONITORING)/2._Monitoring_mechanism/5._Comments_by_the_States_concerned/1._First_cycle/1st_comments_FYROM.asp
http://www.coe.int/t/e/human_rights/ecri/1-ECRI/2-Country-by-country_approach/FYROM/The_Former_Yugoslav_Republic_Macedonia_CBC_3.asp
http://www.coe.int/t/e/human_rights/minorities/1._general_presentation/PDF_DH-MIN(99)7rev3.pdf
http://www.coe.int/t/e/human_rights/ecri/5-Archives/1-ECRI's_work/5-CBC_Second_reports/Albania_CBC_2.asp
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http://www.coe.int/t/e/human_rights/ecri/5-archives/1-ecri's_work/5-cbc_second_reports/CBC2%20Macedonia.pdf
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http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?link=/Documents/WorkingDocs/Doc02/EDOC9335.htm
http://www.coe.int/t/e/human_rights/minorities/2._FRAMEWORK_CONVENTION_(MONITORING)/2._Monitoring_mechanism/3._State_Reports_and_UNMIK_Kosovo_Report/2._Second_cycle/PDF_2nd_SR_FYROM_eng.pdf
http://venice.coe.int/docs/2005/CDL-MIN(2005)001-e.asp
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http://jp.coe.int/CEAD/JP/Default.asp?ID=13128
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http://www.coe.int/t/e/human_rights/Minorities/2._FRAMEWORK_CONVENTION_(MONITORING)/2._Monitoring_mechanism/3._State_Reports_and_UNMIK_Kosovo_Report/1._First_cycle/1st_SR_Slovenia.asp
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http://www.coe.int/t/e/legal_affairs/legal_co-operation/combating_economic_crime/3_technical_cooperation/PACO/PACOTP24(FinalProgressReport2001).pdf
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For instance it is less important to know, whether ancient Macedonia has anything to do with modern Greeks or Macedonians. But the emotions that it provokes and the linguistic rituals that surround it (e.g. the taboos, the apparent disgust, the obligatory indignation, etc.) are certainly an essential part of those two national identities.
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Don't let me interrupt you; you have some 218x100=21,800 more to list. Please continue... •NikoSilver• 17:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, mailing list posts don't count :) - Francis Tyers · 17:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

And besides, most of those refer to the ethnicity, not the language. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Hah! I thought you'd say that. Just wanted to give you a little more hope. Here you are: 195x100=19,500 more please. Oh, and I doubt you want to force each side scrutinize all of its links for possible flaws... •NikoSilver• 18:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, please do. I read all of those. The only possible flaw is that some of them are written by ethnic Macedonians. But then there are some written by Greeks too. - Francis Tyers · 08:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

And I think you mean 7*100 = 700, but not really because mailing list posts don't count. So thats 7 - 6 = 1 * 100 = 100. Quite an easy feat.

[edit] More...

So at most 28. But some of those are duplicates, and some are irrelevant. Some are cancelled out by the fact that the author uses it in a quote by a Greek, whereas when he is writing he uses only "Macedonian language". If you want I'll go through and find how many there really are, then we can continue this clown parade. - Francis Tyers · 08:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Look, I am not trying to rename the article to Slavomacedonian language or to Macedonian Slavic. I am just saying that it is not as rare as you want to make it sound. You can't just count dozens of times the UN or the COE, as you have listed it multiple times above. Indeed a 'clown' parade (in the sense of 'clone', coz you've cloned all of your sources). 21 books (including Pulton, Lunt, Wilkinson) plus the Ethnologue is a lot. It definitely doesn't deserve being removed from the article. •NikoSilver• 14:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Cloned all my sources, nonsense. Each of those is a unique url, with a unique mention. You know I could find another hundred anyway to replace those. But I don't need to as I have made my point. The point being that the name "*Slav*Macedonian" is vastly, overwhelmingly, not used. I'm not talking about disambiguation here (which we have in the form of a disambiguation note), but I'm talking about use as a name, a regular point of reference. I'm willing to make another wager, that the times that Poulton, Lunt and Wilkinson mention "Macedonian language" (without disambiguation) is greater than the amount of times they mention "*Slavic*Macedonian language". I'll start the betting with a factor of ten. You are welcome to raise the stakes. - Francis Tyers · 14:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

How is every single document of the UN or COE a unique source? You'd lose the bet with Wilkinson at least, coz I happen to have read it, and the guy says something extremely reasonable like: This book uses the term Macedo-Slav for the Macedonians of Slavic origin and their language. He says this once, and from then on he uses Macedo-Slav dozens of times. I'll find the exact quote for you. •NikoSilver• 14:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Ha ha! So does Poulton! In fact, whenever he uses Macedonian language alone, he uses scare quotes [6]. Tough luck. •NikoSilver• 15:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ...and more...

Wilkinson, H. R. (1952) "Jugoslav Macedonia in Transition". The Geographical Journal.

"... extreme measures were adopted to purify the Macedonian language ..."
"A distinctive Macedonian language could be regarded as a guarantee against irredentism."

Poulton, H. Who are the Macedonians?

"... believe the current Macedonian language is a dialect of Bulgarian ..."
"...a Macedonian language based on the Veles-Prilep-Bitola-Ohrid dialects..."
"...that in this period the use of the Macedonian language was forbidden ..."
"The Macedonian language as adopted by ASNOM was also to be the official ..."

- Francis Tyers · 16:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you want me to bother with Lunt? - Francis Tyers · 16:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Wilkinson: I have the book at home, I'll give you refs tonight.

Poulton: You missed these:

- Page 3: ... and thus the language ‘Macedonian' refers to their spoken language which ...
  - Doesn't count, doesn't mention 'Slav' -- he just puts it in quotes, which is another form of disambiguation I guess.
    - Ok, maybe we should use the same technique in the article? Niko Silver 11:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Page 5: speaking a Slav-based language (although modem Slav Macedonian historians in ...
  - Doesn't mention the language.
    - Precisely. Niko Silver 11:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Page 13: They also spoke the language of their people, ‘Macedonian', which contained ...
  - Doesn't count, see above.
    - You too. Niko Silver 11:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Page 88: ... , defended it on the grounds that the Macedonian Slav language was ...
  - Counts, but only 1 mention.
    - I don't need more, but check above. Niko Silver 11:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Lunt: I can't find it on the web. Probably your FYROM partisan bosses will send you selective quotations from that one too along with your confessed payment!! •NikoSilver• 16:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Haha :)) Give me a second. - Francis Tyers · 16:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Niko, pleaaaase. Stop it already, you lost this, and you know it...:-)

You know I'm quite neutral at heart on this one; in fact I was initially quite for a full coverage of "Slavomacedonian" and the like in the header. But Francis has convinced me. I've checked his references, and I've checked yours. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes you are, but there's more to it. Again, I am not trying to rename the article. I am just listing a fairly used alternative name, as is the convention in WP, and as we've done in hundreds of other articles where there is much less preminence. Niko Silver 11:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Check COE here too: [7]. Back in a sec with more... •NikoSilver• 17:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is 1 reference compared to all the references from the COE that I gave. - Francis Tyers · 17:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

And this: [8]. •NikoSilver• 17:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"Die bulgarisch-jugoslawische Kontroverse um Makedonien 1967-1982" is what you are presumably referring to? I'd have to see the rest of the article. He may be doing "simple disambiguation", or he may be using it as a name. - Francis Tyers · 17:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that, and the review itself. Niko Silver 12:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

And this: CNN •NikoSilver• 17:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"Macedonian is the language closest to Old Slavic" (from the CNN link -- not that I think CNN is a reliable source) - Francis Tyers · 17:23, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
- Check how else it calls it. •NikoSilver• 17:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, CNN is one for one (like it matters). - Francis Tyers · 17:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I am not searching for 'academics'. I thought we have cleared it out that we are just searching for usage in English. CNN is very indicative on that aspect. Niko Silver 12:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

And since you mentioned Britannica, check how they disambiguate it here: [9], while ofcourse they don't do that for any other language. •NikoSilver• 17:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, disambiguation, just like we have at the top of the article. - Francis Tyers · 17:26, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Well that's the part where you're wrong m'lad. The dab on the top is one thing, and the alternative names another thing. I'll be back later... •NikoSilver• 17:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I leave work at sometime after 6pm, don't miss me if I'm gone! :) - Francis Tyers · 17:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Wilkinson:
- Preface, p.vii: "The name Macedo-Slav is italicized throughout because of its association with J.Cvijić. It is a better descriptive term than 'Macedonian' which is often used to refer to all nationals of the Jugoslav Republic of Macedonia, including Slav, Albanian and Turkish elements."
- p.177 "A.Belić and V.Jagić -both Serbians- had established the fact that the Macedo-Slav dialect was transitional between Serb and Bulgarian."
- p.276-7 "He [A.Meillet] pointed out that the Serbian statistics had erred in referring to the Macedo-Slav dialect as Serbo-Croat."
- p.257 "But since the Macedo-Slav dialect was regarded as a branch of Serbo-Croat, the map lost a great deal of its value."
- p.307 "The language of the Slavs of Macedonia was classified [by the Naval Intelligence Division (UK) Maps, in 1944] as Macedo-Slavand it was shown in Jugoslav and Greek Macedonia but not in Bulgaria." WOW!
- p.331 "As n illustration of the analogy between the Serb, Macedo-Slav and Bulgarian languages, Weigand compared the dialect of Bitolj with that of Sofia (Sop dialect) and Serbo-Croat."

Nice to see the UK navy classified it as such too. :-) Apart from the name, I definitely urge you to get a hold of this magnificent book. It has an extremely detailed analysis of all ethnographic maps ever produced in the region. I've never come across so much condensed information about Macedonian people/languages/religions before. No doubt, Wilkinson is the number one source for the whole region. •NikoSilver• 21:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New

Note to outsiders: Francis and I have a long history which allows us to be both uncivil to each-other and sarcastic on the (pretence?) basis of mutual respect and humor. :-) If you don't belong in this cabal, don't be offended, and do not indulge in doing the same.

Its true you know! - Francis Tyers · 13:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

There's more where this is coming from. Niko Silver 00:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok Niko, first of all, Wilkinson is a reliable source. I'll give you that. I'll give you that in the book you have by him, (dated 1951) he uses "Macedonian-Slav" to describe the language. However, this was before the language was entirely standardised, and also, in the 1952 paper I have, he uses "Macedonian language" (no Slav). I'm not sure what you're trying to gain with pasting all those links, because at least "http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=0521223156&ss=exc" <-- this one, doesn't mention "Macedonian Slavic" at all! In fact, it mentions: "The name of the Macedonian language is also disputed by the Greeks and Bulgarians, but we shall follow the established Slavists’ convention and use “Macedonian”, since there is no other language competing for this name (2.2.3)." - Francis Tyers · 10:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Πώς τα βρήκες όλα αυτά, εγώ γιατί δεν τα βρήκα όταν έψαξα;--Euthymios 10:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

How did I find them? Click on the spider-like gizmo below my scuba pic to see who gave them to me. (I'll get back on Fran's assertions too when I receive the proper input). Niko Silver 10:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Fran: Correct on that one link from Cambridge. I was confused by this quote:

Moreover, not all the properties of the languages form such intra-Slavic genetic groupings. Balkan languages like Bulgarian and Macedonian (Slavic), Romanian (Romance) and Albanian (an Indo-European language-isolate), in a geographically coherent area, are genetically part of different sub-branches of Indo-European, but show similar post-posed article forms.

...but apparently 'Slavic' goes to both Bulgarian and that other. I don't remove the paper, however, due to the exact quote you posted, which reflects it is an convention of Slavists -hence it accepts that the academic community has not consented yet on the name. As for Wilkinson (and other sources of the 50's), I think that 55 years are a very small time for a language to be renamed completely. For historical purposes and only (if we didn't have contemporary sources) the Slavic compound should stay in the intro. We can reflect that in the text if you wish. Now go ahead and scrutinize the rest of them if you wish. (oh, I saw you already did -edit conflict) I'll get back with responses and I'm pasting more later today. Niko Silver 11:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It being a Slavists convention does not exclude it from being other conventions. It may not be a Classics convention, but then the Classisists probably don't talk about that Macedonian language at all. They only talk about the other Macedonian language, thus not requiring disambiguation. - Francis Tyers · 11:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You want me to remove it? I think my point is clear: Slavists convention (not even linguists). You didn't respond about the historical issue which also shows that such sources are unfairly excluded from the net. Niko Silver 11:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, remove it. Regarding the historical issue, I have presented sources from many decades. "55 years are a very small time for a language to be renamed completely", not so. It can be done in a very short amount of time. The problem with your historical point is that I've presented sources from the year after showing Wilkinson using Macedonian language sans "*Slav*". We have a wide range of historical and contemporary sources showing that the name is and was "Macedonian language". Perhaps a note could go in the Ancient Macedonian language article stating that prior to the inauguration of the Macedonian language, typically the Ancient Macedonian language was referred to as such? But even then I'm not so sure that is right, and how much pedigree "Ancient Macedonian language" has as a descriptor or name for that language. - Francis Tyers · 12:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Still, the term has wide historical usage which can be found in pre-internet sources. Apart from that, Slavic, is used for apparently a number of reasons:

To dab from XMK
To dab from other languages in the FYROM (Albanian-Turkish, see Wilkinson)
To satisfy those freaking nationalist Macedonians (Greek) and the Epsilon Team who dare suggest that their history and culture is not only being robbed off, but also monopolized by the violation of their right to be able to self-identify as 'Macedonians', speaking 'Macedonian' in 'Macedonia'. (not to forget: while their sovereignity is severely questioned at the same time) Niko Silver 12:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how much I have to do to convince you that I don't share their vision of history. Perhaps you could send me a badge to wear? "This user subscribes to the international historical consensus on the history of Macedonia" ? Kind of large for a badge though, maybe a sign? You could write it multilingually in Greek, English and Macedonian!

You need to convince me that your subscription to the international historic consensus, your concerns about stability, and your concerns about those other fellow's self-determination rights, are a reason to not censor their rightful concerns from every f***ing article related to their counterparts. Niko Silver 13:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I have never said that Macedonians shouldn't be able to call themselves Macedonians, and you know it. - Francis Tyers · 14:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The same way I can be called Francis Tyers (or that promiscuous other without the space) I suppose... Niko Silver 15:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course, I would never consider monopolising my noble name! Francis Morton Tyers if you want the full "treatment" ;) - Francis Tyers · 15:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I suppose if you were the Rockefeller of culture and history you would definitely oppose, you little insignificant POV-pusher... Niko Silver 16:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

:)) - Francis Tyers · 16:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

A million times, we have a DAB, I added it. Some people didn't want "Slavic" there, but I added it, because it is a very useful disambiguation tool in that place. It doesn't need disambiguating from Albanian or Turkish as they have their own names!

Remove the word 'Slavic' from the dab if it suits you. I want the intro. Niko Silver 13:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No deal. The dab note is the perfect, ideal place for disambiguation, which is what we are trying to achieve. - Francis Tyers · 14:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Whatever they are giving you, we double it. I only offered to remove the dab note because you were concerned about it. Prepare to be dazzled by my sources if you don't accept the compromise... Niko Silver 15:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Haha :) You never got back to me about that PS in the email I sent ;) - Francis Tyers · 15:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Awww! Just checked e-mail history! Seriously I hadn't noticed the whole message and thought you hadn't received mine! About the PS, don't worry, an associate will contact you soon... Niko Silver 16:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You have yet to show that "*Slav*Macedonian*Slav*" as a name of the language is as widely used either now or then than simply "Macedonian language". Most of the sources you have come up with are of a low quality (with some exceptions). But the exceptions (as I think you've said before), prove the rule.

You are unfair, and we'll definitely see that when you let me finish. Niko Silver 13:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is my final compromise (yes, another one), we change the disambiguation note to say: "This article is about the Slavic Macedonian language. For the unrelated, non-Slavic language spoken in the ancient world, see Ancient Macedonian language." What say you? - Francis Tyers · 12:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Think about it for a while (a day or longer if necessary). It gets your "name" [Slavic Macedonian language N] into the first line of the article. While I just see it as a disambiguation device [Slavic ADJ [Macedonian language N]]. Suits both of us. - Francis Tyers · 12:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with your rationale pointing to a necessity for a compromise. I am not rejecting your proposal first hand though. Let's wait a couple of days to see how many more f***ing sources will satisfy your FYROM-payroll [part of body]. Shall we? I'll even do a cleanup of those already posted and paste them alltogether below. Niko Silver 13:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, both myself and Fut. Perf. disagree with the current version, and while you may have numerical superiority, I think it is better to have a version we all agree on. I was presenting this as a possible version that we could all agree on, as per my rationale above. - Francis Tyers · 13:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

There is another compromise version that comes to mind, but I suggest you let me source this further. Numerical superiority is inferior to arguments/sources and you know I don't count on that. Niko Silver 14:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, which is why we're still discussing this :)) - Francis Tyers · 14:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Did you even read [10] ? Look down the bottom for a hint as to why it isn't a reliable source :) - Francis Tyers · 10:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes I did. Now click 'about us' to see who's quoting that source. Niko Silver 11:14, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is a spam site. - Francis Tyers · 11:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Curiously enough it doesn't choose to 'spam' the other version... Niko Silver 11:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

This one doesn't mention *Slav*, in fact it uses "Macedonian" all the way through. - Francis Tyers · 10:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It does, but not twice. The full quote is "it has been suspected that the arrest is because Vottaris, a (Slav) Macedonian, has been transmitting traditional songs and dances in the Macedonian...". Niko Silver 11:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Ethnicity not language. - Francis Tyers · 11:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Both. Niko Silver 11:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You left out the important bit! "because Vottaris, a (Slav) Macedonian, has been transmitting traditional songs and dances in the Macedonian language on air." - Francis Tyers · 12:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I left it out because I don't use the term as a matter of principle. It was obvious. What is your point? Niko Silver 12:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

This one doesn't mention language -- talks about Slav Macedonian dialects, which is not the same thing :) - Francis Tyers · 10:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Removed, I thought you'd find interesting that...

P.Zografski also prepared a number of primers written in the local vernacular of Western Macedonia. In the early 1870s, V. Mačukovski, a teacher in Ohrid and Salonica, prepared one of the first primers that used the western Slav Macedonian dialects.

Niko Silver 11:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Aye, it is interesting, but a shame that it doesn't have references :( - Francis Tyers · 11:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Read the rest of it for your article :-) Niko Silver 11:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

This one doesn't even mention Macedonian at all. - Francis Tyers · 10:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It does. Here is a bit from the text which clearly uses it among other languages. Care to download it for full reference? Niko Silver 11:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to see more context. Not necessarily the full article though. - Francis Tyers · 11:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Well we don't have a subscription just yet. Niko Silver 12:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

This one uses "Slavic" as a disambiguator, and uses "Macedonian" as the name of the language. - Francis Tyers · 10:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh? How about this then: "Macedonian means here Slavic Macedonian, in the sense it is used in the science of linguistics." Niko Silver 11:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, disambiguation, as in "Macedonian means here Slavic Macedonian, not Ancient Macedonian" - Francis Tyers · 11:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Precisely. Niko Silver 12:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad you agree, disambiguation not name :) -- an important distinction to make :) - Francis Tyers · 12:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

A dab name. Niko Silver 12:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Newer

SOCIALIST REVIEW, published by your Socialist Workers Party

The SWP is not a reliable source. You know I've been to their conferences? One in Dublin and one at the LSE in London. They sing the Internationale at the end. In fact IIRC, the SWP is specifically listed on Wikipedia:Reliable sources. - Francis Tyers · 16:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Both terms from the Defence Academy of the UK. This article is very interesting in general. Read it if you have time, as it explains some deeper roots of the problem... (I wish they could see that...)

Doesn't mention "Macedonian-Slav language", it mentions "Macedonian language", and also "Macedonian-Slav tongue". This is a neutral source as it could easily be taken as supporting both of our sides. - Francis Tyers · 16:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You seriously object to the language/tongue thing? It's an alternative name and they are listing it. Niko Silver 16:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, all of my references are to "Macedonian language". If you want a reference to count it must use *language* (that's Kleene star btw, not emphasis). - Francis Tyers · 17:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No comment. Niko Silver 23:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

~~Bibliography from a professor of the U.Helsinki~~

Lindstedt is pretty cool, I have a paper by him if you are interested? [Lindstedt, J. (2000). “Linguistic Balkanization: Contact-induced change by mutual reinforcement”, D. G. Gilbers & al. (eds.) Languages in Contact, (Studies in Slavic and General Linguistics, 28.), Amsterdam & Atlanta, GA, 2000: Rodopi, 231–246.] He doesn't use the term "Slavic Macedonian language". He calls it "Slavic Macedonian studies", this does not necessarily mean the language. You'll note that in all the bibliography entries, "Macedonian" (sans *Slav*) is used. In his paper he uses "Macedonian language". - Francis Tyers · 16:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Stricken. I don't need to debate any further though. I have established reasonable preminance. Niko Silver 16:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
CNN another one

Acknowledged. One from CNN. - Francis Tyers · 16:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
This from ECMA (see Ecma International)
This talks about that language in Greece, and is puzzled as to if it is distinct or same to the one up north. (from Europa diversa)

"While far from being satisfactory, such a ‘solution’ has the virtue of accommodating the position of a member state, such a Greece, which appears to have a deeply ingrained problem with accepting the very existence of linguistic diversity on it s territory." Haha. Having said that, it doesn't mention "*Macedonian* language", and it only mentions Slav-Macedonian in the context of Greece. Now, how do you know if this relates to this or Macedonian language this? - Francis Tyers · 17:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Hah! Easy! I know because the guy himself claims so in the Rainbow party site! Niko Silver 23:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

And you count them as a reliable source? ;) - Francis Tyers · 00:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Macedonian (Slavonic) in Australia.

Would support an intro including "Macedonian (Slavonic)" provided it was put in the correct context, as I have outlined below. - Francis Tyers · 17:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
another

Would support an intro including "Macedonian (Slavonic)" provided it was put in the correct context, as I have outlined below. - Francis Tyers · 17:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually we have lots more from down under with that name (AU recognizes the language as such -and this only is ENOUGH)

Would support an intro including "Macedonian (Slavonic)" provided it was put in the correct context, as I have outlined below. - Francis Tyers · 17:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
And in the whole other world...
Multilingual European Subsets in ISO/IEC 10646-1 from CEN (see CEN)

Granted. - Francis Tyers · 17:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
and this

Granted. - Francis Tyers · 17:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
This, from this Berkeley guy

Granted. Single use. - Francis Tyers · 17:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

After I checked out the AU status of the language, I cried ENOUGH, having considered the 60 (or what) sources I provided for you, the darn Ethnologue, etc etc. Now will you leave that article alone please, or do you want more? Niko Silver 16:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The source you give is 1997, it was revoked after an appeal to the High Court of Australia. Full story: here. - Francis Tyers · 16:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Still it is an alternative name, and very recent one too. You need to add that in that WP:POVFORK of yours. Also, the 'Slavonic' alternative alone produces +300 links alone. Hey! I may even get to rename that article after all, having found more sources than you! :-) Niko Silver 16:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Bye for now, but I am really dissappointed: You knew all along that AU called the language until 1998 as Macedonian (Slavonic), and (1) you wanted to exclude the alternative name from the intro, (2) you wouldn't tell me to expand my search string... Niko Silver 17:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You should have read the article, and my posts on the talk page. I specifically posted one for your benefit. - Francis Tyers · 17:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Also your results are in no way conclusive. The name change was overturned by the High Court for being discriminatory. You could include it in the introduction as "The language was also known as Macedonian (Slavonic) for a year before the Australian High Court ruled that the government of the state of Victoria acted in an illegal and discriminatory fashion by changing the name." I don't think either of us wants that though. - Francis Tyers · 17:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I've considered your sources. Four of them are acceptable. An extra three are acceptable if we put the name in context. You have not provided 60 sources and I challenge you to list them if you have. At most you have provided 20 reliable sources for my (non-exhaustive) ~~412~~ ~~420~~ 422 reliable sources. If we did the maths, this would result in "*Slav*Macedonian*language" being used 4% of the time. Which I'm quite sure we can all agree is an excessively minority usage. - Francis Tyers · 17:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I dispute your 412 sources as repetitive from the same sites e.g. you have listed UN and EU more than 20 times each, COE some 80 times(!) etc. For me even 4% + Ethnologue + Australian case + Greece + dispute in general would be more than enough. Of course, claiming I only have 20 sources while you yourself did the search and came up with 21 books alone is silly... Niko Silver 21:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Your sources repeat too. I applied the same restrictions to yours as mine. - Francis Tyers · 23:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The World's Major Languages (Bernard Comrie ed.) ISBN 0195065115 is another one for my side. - Francis Tyers · 23:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Up to now

Note: Francis Tyers asserts that this section contains numerous unreliable sources and false assertions.

Aussie edu
ISO stuff
Freedomhouse.org report
COE
Historiography in the Former and New Yugoslavia
Lumsden
Die bulgarisch-jugoslawische Kontroverse um Makedonien 1967-1982 and review
Both terms from the Defence Academy of the UK
CNN
CNN another one
This from ECMA (see Ecma International)
This talks about that language in Greece, and is puzzled as to if it is distinct or same to the one up north. (from Europa diversa)
Multilingual European Subsets in ISO/IEC 10646-1 from CEN (see CEN)
and this
This, from this Berkeley guy
ODIN
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=108775
European Center for Modern Languages
dmoz.org
Rosetta project
This from Mercator
Another
Slavists’ convention...
UN
chief Wilkinson
...Who in p.307 also says: "The language of the Slavs of Macedonia was classified [by the Naval Intelligence Division (UK) Maps, in 1944] as Macedo-Slav and it was shown in Jugoslav and Greek Macedonia but not in Bulgaria."
Poulton
Lunt
Shea
Ethnologue
In 63 instances Britannica chooses to call the language in its literature links as South Slavic Macedonian
+112 for Macedonian (Slavonic) in AU.
+ 21-3=18 books

So I got some 220 sources total. Hey! I want more than one third from that lead! :-) Niko Silver 00:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Evidently you didn't get the memo about reliable sources. You claim "160", but the majority of those are unreliable. I could equally claim 80,000 with the same certitude. - Francis Tyers · 00:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Really Niko, listing stuff like this is doing your argument a great disservice. - Francis Tyers · 00:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Paleorama has great dinos and stuff in the main page. Maybe I should feed you to one of them to get done!^[1]Niko Silver 00:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

:)) - Francis Tyers · 14:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Sources are up to 220. I want half the lead! Niko Silver 10:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

You're living in a completely alternate reality. I think I've proven my point. :) - Francis Tyers · 14:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you guys still at it? If you go on, then even those dinosaurs are going to refuse to eat you, because you're too damned old and tough. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think I'm going to give up, he's quoting "Paleorama" vs. many notable linguists, international organisations, academics, news organisations etc. He has a case for including "Macedonian (Slavonic)" providing the context I gave is used. My previous compromise proposal still stands, to have "Slavic Macedonian language" in the dab note.- Francis Tyers · 14:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I am really dissapointed you don't notice:

Lumsden, Stallaerts, Hammel, Wilkinson, Poulton, Lunt, Shea as academics
another 18 books
Britannica (63 times), ODIN, Ethnologue, Rosetta project, Mercator, Freedomhouse, Australian Press Council, and the Defence Academy and the Naval Intelligence Division of the UK as third-party sources
ISO, ECMA, CEN as standardizing organizations
UN, COE (EU), ECML (EU) as international organizations
CNN as a news organization
the Australian case
Various sources describing the dispute etc

Maybe you should take this elsewhere if you insist...Niko Silver 15:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Really guys, I know almost everybody's already said this, but don't you believe you have very good chances of finding yourselves assigned the prize for the lamest dispute ever in wikipedia?;-) I must admit I simply don't get it how people can find so interesting a discussion on minimum rewording of the lead; be careful, or I may be tempted to become really rouge and block the article for a year, obviously at the wrong version ;-).--Aldux 22:16, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah! That would be mine! :-) Niko Silver 22:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

^ Death threats! Death threats! Come on, ban him, immediately!

[edit] By the way

What are these long lists, vre Nicos?! I got dizzy woth this intimate dialogue with Francis!!!--Yannismarou 13:09, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I am a founding member of the Epsilon Team and Francis has confessed being in the payrol of the FYROM irredentists. We found out about each other after we had already become friends; no wonder why we are involved in obsessive debates. Fut.Perf. hates dinosaurs with obvious relationships to my secret leader and intervened. Dinosaurs are said to have secretly agreed with northern species for the name Slavomavedonia, but were overthrown before they could apply the solution. This is an attempt to hide the true facts from WP, which involves rouge admins. The Truth^TM will prevail! Niko Silver 14:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow! This is even more complex than the murder of Kennedy. I need time to think about it and digest the waves of information!--Yannismarou 20:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hey Sandy

Thanks for correcting me in coprolalia. Sorry for the apparent WP:OR, but I thought the intro needed to say this is a nuthouse case. Anyway, keep me in mind whenever you need to correct Greek stuff. :-) Niko Silver 19:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the help on Greek stuff (I really wasn't sure on the translations):I wouldn't really say it's a nuthouse case, though.I know some very accomplished and fine people who have coprolalia as a symptom of their Tourette syndrome.When I have time, I'll try to tune up the article to better explain.Regards, Sandy (Talk) 19:39, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Umm, possibly my English/Medical knowledge doesn't help to explain. I meant the intro needed some kind of hint that this is a non-normal mental situation/state. Niko Silver 20:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Help...

I deleted that category, but it seems there are some incoming links to it. Would you mind removing them for me? --HappyCamper 13:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, don't worry :-) No fuss at all. This place is too serious sometimes, and I got a healthy laugh reading through the comments! --HappyCamper 13:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that will be okay to leave them there. Thanks again for your help! --HappyCamper 13:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Phi Phi pics

NikoSilver, nice shots from Phi Phi.The Muslim village shot doesn't link through correctly (although, clicking on the image page, I do get the full-sized version).Can you fix that up?Also, I assume you took that yourself (as with the other two)? - Thaimoss 16:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC) P.S. You know the name of that village? - Thaimoss 16:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll see to it and try to fix it (mine worked). Yes, I took that pic myself too, but the captain/guide's English was really poor, and even if he said the name, I don't remember it. Sorry for that. I had hired a speed-boat from Phouket. You might also be interested in correcting/fixing up the James bond Island - Thailand. The picture is accurate, I have a similar one, but no word about the capitalization etc... Niko Silver 21:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Niko, I've taken a first run at the James bond Island - Thailand.Want to move/rename that to Bond (capital 'B')?

Actually 'James Bond' is a nickname due to the movie. They told me the real name but I don't remember at all. Thank God someone else knew it. Now I guess it's ok! Niko Silver 11:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ???

Dear Niko, What is the relation that you use my name in FpaS talk page.?Sory, what is wrong with me? Regards. Must ^TC 20:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Nothing Mustafa, don't worry, it was a joke. FPaS advised you not to use test-templates to experienced users, and I used it on him (thereby implying he is unexperienced). I linked your talk to show him where I read it. Have fun. Niko Silver 20:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cretan War

Thanks for the congratulations. Kyriakos 20:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Typo-Tipo...

Send another message to Khoi. Must ^TC 20:51, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Either he won't get it (didn't warn you not to use test templates), or it will be an old joke for him, as I bet he's wikistalking all of our talk pages! Niko Silver 20:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You malakas!

Of course it was...not. ;-) Khoikhoi 23:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

LOL!

BTW, what ever happened to your pathetic signature?

Khoikhoi 23:57, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

You can't read #remarks can you... Click here to spare me the copying... Niko Silver 00:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see. :-( Khoikhoi 00:14, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Wait, what? Khoikhoi 00:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

icur#*&*@&^%! Niko Silver 00:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I need a lawyer too... :-( Khoikhoi 01:50, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

They seem to have disappeared... Khoikhoi 01:57, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cooperation board launched

A new (and overdue) Greek and Turkish cooperation and notification board has been launched here. Stop by, have a look and sound off! Cheers! Baristarim 07:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Something you will get jealous of >D

Title says all. ~~•S e an•gorter• ^{Get a signature!} 07:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

And why'd you change your signature? ~~•S e an•gorter• ^{Get a signature!} 07:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I am glad the new shop is in good hands. Have fun. I got bored. Niko Silver 09:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey, not all signature makers get popular, 'cause someday I'll have no customers. Mind if I bring you one? ~~•S e an•gorter• ^{Get a signature!} 04:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Being popular is a vanity. Especialy in an artificial environment such as WP. Yes, you are welcome to send requests to my (old) signature shop. Niko Silver 10:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nationalistic botanists

I gotta quit.The exchange was a nice break to the tribal warfare over in Y land, though.Don't forget though that the truth is stranger than fiction.KP Botany 00:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My RfA

I wonder where you got the idea to come over and vote for me :)! Thank you very much for your eloquent remarks and vote in support. Biruitorul 15:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Our last discussion was indicative of your morale. I noticed your RfA and thought I should browse you. I liked the findings. I only vote for/against people I've seen around. Niko Silver 15:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you want to throw a look in this terrible mess of nice ideas! Niko Silver 15:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

That page is funny! I'll try to answer soon. Biruitorul 16:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your support there for my remark about communicating with banned users. - Jmabel | Talk 04:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kaltsef

Blocked & protected. :-) I actually knew that his username meant "sock". As for Tarlis incident, you're going to have to prod it or go to AfD (WP:HOAX is not a CSD). Andio, Khoikhoi 00:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greetings

PLEASE JOIN THE GROUP: Wikipedia:WikiProject Cyprus

There is MUCH to do but the road ahead will be a blessed road in the end. Cheers.(UNFanatic 15:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Janissaries

I tried to find some evidence on whether the janissary system was universally hated or not. Please check it out on the discussion page:. What do you think? --Free smyrnan 23:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template use

Γειά σου! Οφείλω να σε ενημερώσω οτι χρησιμοποιώ στην αρχική μου σελίδα [[11]] ενα template που έχω την εντύπωση οτι δημιούργησες. Ελπίζω να μην σε ενοχλεί.Kapnisma 09:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request

Hello Niko. I need your advice if you're in a position to help. Originally when I created my account (User:Evlekis), you sent the welcome note. Am I to assume that this makes you an administrator! I don't know, anyhow, my only purpose is to extend articles, correct what I see as errors and generally edit much like any other user. I am occasionally subjected to revert-wars and I am in the middle of one at the moment. A User:DJ Bungi seems to have little better to do than design his own articles with regards persons from the former Yugoslavia, particularly those born within the old country, and remove their country of birth as being Yugoslavia. He never does this when the subject is born before its creation (ie. you won't find him removing Venetian Republic and replacing it with Croatia etc). He also likes to wipe out Cyrillic translations of peoples names: I apply Cyrillic names to people born in FYR Macedonia, Serbia or Montenegro at any time as the Cyrillic alphabet is to those places what the Greek alphabet is to Greece; naturally, if a person born anywhere else declares FYR-Macedonian, Serbian or Montenegrin nationality/ethnicity etc, then I place Cyrillic for much the same reasons, in that it is a sign of the people of the respective nation (whether they choose to use it or not). It does not take much space and it causes offence to nobody. Country naming is itself biographical and relevant to the article's subject. When he does this, he often reverts pages to old editions which wipe out many more details. I always believed that editors have the right to add info, others have the right to query it, but removal needs to be justified and one is not allowed to remove details simply because he doesn't like them: I hate the fact that NATO put bombs on Yugoslavia in 1999 but I don't alter the page as though it never happened! A recent example of a revert-war with Bungi boy is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Seka_Alek%C5%A1i%C4%87&diff=83890276&oldid=83418871

It took me a while to spot it but when I did: then came this -

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Seka_Alek%C5%A1i%C4%87&diff=90381671&oldid=89266504

Anyhow, assuming there would be more than just a protest against Cyrillic and his misfortune of seeing Bosnia once in Yugoslavia, I realised that my own reverts may have been deleting something vital from his preferred version, I read through it and the only significant feature was a Bosnia-bio-stub. So I replaed the old edits having included the bio stub as such:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Seka_Alek%C5%A1i%C4%87&diff=91345309&oldid=91219206

...to which the next edit was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Seka_Alek%C5%A1i%C4%87&diff=91554248&oldid=91345309

How do you deal with someone like that? No doubt when he rises from his pit as sun sets he will retrun to his nonsense.

So I then reverted the edit back to its original (but I will replace the Croatian link). Are you in a position to warn him officially that such behaviour is vandalism, if not, to whom do I go? Thanks for your time Niko. Evlekis 10:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. For some reason it won't show on your system. This was all on the English language Wiki but it is possible that when you click on the link (which takes you to the page via the search bar, that is externally), it takes you to something else. Fair enough, do you know any admin personnel? I'd be glad if you could give me the details of someone who might be able to help! Ευχαριστώ! Γειά σασ για τόρα! Evlekis 14:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Niko, it is all clear now what you meant. I think this is a behaviour dispute because he has a habit of removing Cyrillic examples of people's names and their country of birth as Yugoslavia when everyone knows that's how it was in 1981! I think the anti-country argument is that "country is not necessary" so in a sense, it is a mixture of content and attitude. Duja is a good editor but at the moment I'm waiting for him to get back to me on something else totally different, and there is no such thing as a neutral POV editor who is Serbian, not atleast if you happen to be Bosnian and set on your own narrow vision! :) Thanks again for replying and helping as best you could, thanks also for your time, keep up your good contributions! Evlekis 16:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to have dragged you into an ugly issue, thanks for the involvement and getting us one step closer to ending a stupid dispute. The behaviour if the original reverter was annoying so I'll handle it as best I can (I did try talking but got no responce, just the continued page-reverting). That Bosnian language source by Fossa says very little anyway but I have returned Yugoslavia as a birthplace and will insist that this part of the text stays: the rest of the page is modelled on Fossa/Bungi or whoever he is. If there is any more nonsense form their side now, we know who the trols are, but thanks for helping again and sorry to have called you away from your own key areas. Evlekis 11:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] By a London-based agent of the E.Y.Π.

Arghh! The composition of the Supreme Cabal Regime's politburo has been unveiled! How are we going to rule the world now? We The people must believe that There Is No Cabal; we've got to make a cover-up, so that they don't understand that we are the old Backbone cabal. I'll promptly consult with our leader. (And, then since we're all England-based, we of the politburo can take a beer at the pub ;-)).--Aldux 14:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

WTF? Have we been uncovered?--Euthymios 17:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes. We'll have to wear Kaltses on our heads from now on, not to be recognized! Niko Silver 17:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you think you could be a mediator at the edit war taking place here?--Euthymios 18:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't give a [removed it myself] about the tags on it. The very worse I can think, is someone trying to reason with him in -say- Bulgarian, and him not responding, therefore keep being banned! Niko Silver 18:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

BTW I hope none of my fellow members of the EYP had anything to do with Litvinenko's death. Hectorian told me something the other day which made feel worried - you should always tell me these things! :-D --Euthymios 18:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Booo! I'm using BA next weekend (Polonium) and staying in one of the Millenium hotels in London! Even my e-mails will be radioactive after that! Niko Silver 18:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

What days will you be around? I'll buy you a (non)-radioactive beer. - Francis Tyers · 18:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Replied by encrypted e-mail. Secure the area. Niko Silver 18:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

And it only gets better! I'm a member of L.A.O.S. and Chrissi Avgi, a schizophrenic web vandal unacceptible to wikipedian community, in addition to being a suspected sockpuppet of Aldux, and confirmed sockpuppet of Euthymios. ;-) Khoikhoi 23:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

And "GAY". :-) Khoikhoi 23:35, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Haha! Thats a classic :D - Francis Tyers · 18:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

No, all we have is Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Kaltsef. Do you think we should tag the IPs as well? That would be too much work. Khoikhoi 11:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess we can start by looking at the ones I blocked, as well as the IPs Aldux & Fut.Perf. blocked. However, it's getting late here, and I gotta get some sleep. Talk to ya later, Khoikhoi 11:24, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and this was fine. Just remember to subst sockpuppet templates. Khoikhoi 11:24, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Khoikhoi 11:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Tanfikl (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log) -- another one gone down the drain. Since I gotta run now, let some of numerous watchers of this page please see what to do with his non-attack contribs. Duja► 16:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Just logged in for a few minutes. Will go ahead with this in a couple of hours. Niko Silver 18:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm deeply offended by this [12].

It's not right! Why can't I be the sock-puppet master? Now the E.Y.Π. won't pay me anymore! Oh well, I can always become a member of the Macedonist Cabal (obviously, TINC) ;-)--Aldux 18:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, easy. Ask Francis! Niko Silver 18:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Since we have been uncovered, and the possibilities of a cover up are limitted, i am just letting u know that i will be in Switzerland for some time... I had thought of moving to the UK, but it is rather dangerous these days for us, spies... E.Y.Π. pays well and i have secret accounts in Zurich, so, i can live a wealthy life in a salle... I am worried of my health, though, since i had that terrible meal in a sushi restaurant. U can trust British Airways, though, cause i will travel by car, through Italy. Sorry, Aldux, i hope i will not contaminate a fellow cabalist... LOL:-D Hectorian 18:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

By the way, i am also offended by the message that offended Aldux, but for different reasons: Don't I deserve a comment next to my name?:(... why do the others have? I am not just "Hectorian";-) Hectorian 18:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Hectorian the money-launderer! Niko Silver 19:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Damn! I should had kept my mouth shut! (but it is still "innocent" compared to what the others have been accused for:)...). Hectorian 19:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! anarwtiomouna ti lathos eixa kanei stis references... Hectorian 15:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irrendentist template

I just copied something from Wikipedia:Templates/cleanup and changed a few words.Incidentally, a little while ago I started moving all of the Thessaloniki images over to Commons, in order to get rid of the gallery in the article, but it got out of hand, as there was some kind of edit war over the images at the time.Perhaps I should get back to that... Jkelly 23:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Θέλεις μπουζούκια; Πήγαινε...

...ρε εσύ που ξέρεις απο "παραλία", μήπως θα μπορούσες να ρίξεις μια ματιά σε αυτά που κάνει τούτο δω το newbie: Stathis Psaltis (talk • contribs). Εγώ ψάλτης και να είμαι, απο σκυλάδικα δεν κατέχω... Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Ναί, είναι τουλάχιστον notable και οι δύο. Και τα δύο άρθρα προσφέρονται για επέκταση γιατί οι τύποι είναι κάλτ (μέχρι πολύ κάλτ!). Όσο για τον χρήστη, δες εδώ και πάτα και "βιογραφία" (φαντάζομαι δεν θα έχει σχέση βέβαια, αλλά είναι επίσης κάλτ!) Πρόσθεσα searches στα τωκ-πειτζ. :-) Niko Silver 10:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Email

Check it :) - Francis Tyers · 12:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Mitsos

Δεν σου λεω να με υποστηριξεις, απλα δες το και πες την γνωμη σου. Cheers Mitsos 16:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image:HistMac.gif

I've just restored the local version of this - the copy on commons was reported as being broken in strange and interesting ways. As the author, could you have a look at them and see what's up with the commons one? Shimgray | talk | 00:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand. I uploaded the correct versions in both commons and en:wp anyway... Mind telling me what the problem was? Niko Silver 18:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Congtratulations

I saw that Macedonia (terminology) finally appears in the main page. Cons!--Yannismarou 07:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Congrats from me as well. Good job! /FunkyFly.talk_ 16:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys, but as you know it wasn't just me. Francis Tyers, FunkyFly, Politis, Telex and PMAnderson helped a lot. Niko Silver 19:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ok

Xronia polla (6 December). So it made it :-O! Can we add more to the map? The original kingdom was actually quite small and south of Thessaloniki (or, rather, Therme). And I am no sure about the Ottoman map, maps only began including Skopje and the area north of Veles, towards the end of the 19th century. So for the Ottoman years and its vilahet system, we should respect the Ottoman administration's system and simply point out that for those 400 years or so, it did not exist. Politis 15:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Efcharisto Constandis! WP has a... birthday in WP feature, but not a normal birthday (that I know of), not to mention nameday feature. Maybe we should discuss about this in WP:GR... Niko Silver 19:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks to all

...for all your comments. I am in London right now, and in great difficulty of accessing WP. I'll check all your requests from Monday, when I get back. Regards to all! Niko Silver 21:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Ti difficulty re! You're in London! :-) Btw exeis kamia idea pou tha brw non-copyrighted eikones gia ta Tassos Isaac kai Solomos Solomou? -- Avg 22:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Difficulty is due to lack of time. I've no idea about those poor guys. Check with User:Aristovoul0s and in the Cypriot refugees article. Niko Silver 19:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks chief! Have a nice time in Londinium!-- Avg 03:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Avg, nicosilver, these are the uploaded ones, if you need more just let me know [Image:Solomou shot by Kenan Akin and Erdan Emanet.jpg] [Image:Tasos Isaak murdered.jpg] Aristovoul0s 08:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Turkic-speaking

You're right. Let's carry the case to Wikipedia:Greek and Turkish wikipedians cooperation board. E104421 20:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] APOLYOMAI!!!

...Se 139 meres kai simera gia tin akriveia. Twra adeia fysika kai malista timitiki. Kata ta alla zw ena drama:)) Apo tin protomagia kai pali konta sas. Kales giortes!!!--makedonas 10:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Σωστος!

Καλα τους τα πες ρε! Μπραβο. Mitsos 15:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Niko, that contribution of yours seems to be more like a discussion, would you mind moving it to the RfC talk page? Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it seems like a discussion. It is an outside view. Mitsos 15:27, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind moving it anywhere. I mind it not be taken into account and unanswered. Niko Silver 20:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Θα την ενεργοποιησω συντομα φιλε μου. Cheers Mitsos 16:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks!

I was hoping that someone would notice sooner or later! I've been seeing that same thing pop up on several peoples pages and I was very confused. Thank you so much for your contributions! I appreciate your work and everything you do for Wikipedia to make it better and your actions are not going unnoticed. Thank you. Sincerely, Carlo V. Sexron 11:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC) Carlo V. Sexron

Carlo V. Sexron has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Smile to others by adding {{subst:smile}}, {{subst:smile2}} or {{subst:smile3}} to their talk page with a friendly message. Happy editing!

[edit] Family Names

Αναφορικά στα ονόματα των Ελλήνων, νομίζω θα έπρεπε να προσθέσεις οτι δισύλλαβα σε -ας, -ης δείχνουν καταγωγή από Μακεδονία/Ήπειρο. π.χ. Γάκης, Λάκης, Τόλκας. Αν ανοίξεις έναν τηλεφωνικό κατάλογο Μακεδονίας θα το καταλάβεις και εσύ. Αυτά τα θυμάμαι από ένα μάθημα γλωσσολογίας στο πανεπιστήμιο, ο καθηγητής που το έκανε μπορούσε ο κερατάς να σου πεί από που κατάγεσαι με βάση το επίθετο! (Εμένα παρ΄ότι καυχόμαι περί της Μακεδονικής αυτοχθονίας μου -με αποδείξεις ο πιό ανιχνεύσιμος πρόγονος μου διαβιούσε εν Θεσσαλονίκηι το σωτήριο έτος 1832- με έβγαλε από την Άνδρο!? ) Θα προσπαθήσω να βρώ ποια βιβλία είχε για πηγές. Πρέπει οπωσδήποτε να διαβάσεις αυτό το βιβλίο [[13]] Kapnisma 18:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Haha

Fixd. - Francis Tyers · 09:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:

I promise not to revert anymore.If you could help me prove my point, however, that would be great. -- Clevelander 22:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hey

Can you let me know why I cannot have Alexander the Great and the Vergina Sun on my userpage but others can? Macedonia 23:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eυχαριστώ

Καλημέρα NikoSilver,

Για να αρχίσω, σε ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ για τη βοήθειά σου, και βεβαιώνεται ότι θα υιοθετήσω τις συστάσεις σου.

Na σου po thn alidia, εξετάσει τη σελίδα σου (κάτω από εκδώστε), για να μάθουν τους κώδικες, ελπίζοντας να μάθω πώς να κατασκευάσo τη σελίδα μου, και μέχρι τώρα έχει πληρώσει μακριά. Ελπίζω δεν σας ενοχλεί;

Έχοντας αναφέρει αυτά, το μόνο πράγμα που δεν έχω τον κύριο είναι πώς να κεντροθετήσει τα στοιχεία, παραδείγματος χάριν, το ελληνικό έμβλημα, ποιος θα επιθυμούσα να κεντροθετήσω στη σελίδα μου, μαζί με το κείμενο κάτω από το.

Εευχαριστήστε άλλη μια φορά.

Philhellenism 05:07, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Pithanos vandalopolemos sto arthro tis Byzantinis autokratorias, an theleis voitha na fygei to parasito, an perimeno apo tous ksenous tha erthei anastasi. Miskin 01:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Kai opos sou eipa, mallon mou esteiles spasmeno link. Miskin 01:09, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Votestacking and WP:POINT

So what is going on here Nikos? You honestly expect me to believe that the creation of this article was a coincidence, and some Greeks users came back from sleeps of 1.5 months to vote was also such? This is a really poor attempt to deflect attention from PGG. Many administrators are aware of this. And there will be a report at ANI. This is ridicilous! Why did you sign up for the coop board? To have some fun? Are there Turkish editors creating "Macedonian genocide" articles and emailing each other per WP:POINT coz of some dispute at a greco-turkish page? How did you learn about this AfD? This whole charade is a clear breach of policies on disruption and WP:POINT. This failed coup attempt (no pun intended) resulted in the loss of hours of manpower from othere Wiki articles. Really great work man.. If somebody sent you an email, why didn't you send one to me for example? That would have been the "goodfaith" thing to do, right? We are all board members at the end of the day, no? If somebody created a "macedonian genocide" article, I would have definitely let you know.. Whatever man... Baristarim 11:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words. The Truth^TM is that we Greeks have special telepathetic senses. Some of them even flied from accross the world to vote in this. You see, with all this technology we have, we don't need to look at each other's contribs, or talk-pages to see what they are up to... As for the article, if you haven't noticed, my view is that the content is legitimate, and I hated the fact that it would be wiped out. (I think Yanni's, Yandman's and your proposals aren't that far from each other). I just saw Fut.Perf.'s invitation to you in our supreme council. We're gonna be exchanging more technological advancements! Feel free to join. Bye now, have to go ahead and wipe out some Slavomacedonians! Niko Silver 11:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Aha. The next time a Turkish user creates a "Macedonian genocide" article and twenty Turkish users come for a block vote, I would let you know of the AfD. The least that could have been done was to inform other users. It was not an article about some lame unimportant topic/title. This is not a US/THEM issue. Yandman clearly stated in his AfD that people could "vote to keep, delete, rename or move". Why not suggest a rename or merge etc if you were interested in content? Whatever man, what went down with the WP:POINT et al was not class. You could have at least left a note at the coop board talk page, just like when I had done when I came across a weird article.Baristarim 11:27, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Baris, please, I was clear from moment 1 about my intentions regarding the content (thereby endorsing those other options you specify). Second, there was virtually no time left between me voting and you jumping in with rhetoric, insults and accusations. I would have probably done all that which you suggest had I not been attacked immediately and mercilessly. Check my contribs the last few days. It is evident that on top of that I didn't have any time for WP. Niko Silver 11:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:RfA

Thanks once again for your kind words. I'll think about it. You can see a more detailed response in my talk page.--Yannismarou 18:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] THANK YOU

NikoSilver.... ise levendis!!!

Thank you heaps for amending my page to my licking. I really appreciate it.

Ελπίζω ότι να έχης Καλά Χριστούγεννα και μια καλή πρωтоχρονιά. Philhellenism 06:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template

Καλημερα! please, see [14] Iappreciate your opinion. Kapnisma 09:07, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Καλημέρα, το είδα και απάντησα εκεί. Niko Silver 16:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Mήπως μπορείς σε παρακαλώ να μου πείς πώς μπορώ να μεταφέρω το Countries Visited δίπλα απο τον πίνακα με τα προσωπικά και κάτω από το Wikipedia:Babel στη σελίδα μου ;

Οι βλάκες είναι ένα εξαιρετικό δοκίμιο κοινωνικού και ψυχολογικού περιεχομένου που μπορεί να φανεί πολύ χρήσιμο σε όσους καθημερινά βρίσκονται στη δυσάρεστη θέση να αλληλεπιδρούν με τη συγκεκριμένη κοινωνική ομάδα. Σκέφτηκα οτι μπορεί να σου φανεί χρήσιμο. Kapnisma 08:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hey man

I was talking to this Greek girl last night in the hostel, and obviously we were talking about where we'd been in Greece (she was a Greek-Australian). So anyway, she's like did you go to see this grave near Thessaloniki, and I'm like "no", so anyway she's all, "well there's this thing there, a shield or something." — I go, oh with the /vergina sun / on (hover over the link to see how I pronounced vergina). Anyway she laughed and told me the correct pronunciation, I might keep saying it my way though, its pretty funny :D — well it made me laugh, hope you at least crack a smile. - Francis Tyers · 09:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Did it work? I suppose the other pronunciation alternative^[1] wasn't that inspiring,^[2] huh? Anyway, I don't know what the Greek-Aussie told you, but the correct is Ver-yEE-nah (stress the caps and say it fast). Did you use any other language? Niko Silver 16:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

LOL! She got it right, yeah :) I'm trying it out now in the office (no one else is around), and I think I've about got it, although I have trouble with the (I think) /ɾ/ sound. Negative on the other language, but then she wasn't a stereotypical Greek girl, so not such a great loss :) - Francis Tyers · 16:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you pronounce fuego in Spanish? Yeeeeah in English (albeit with a longer y sound)? Like maybe in What, or better in Whooosh... (Pheeww... Glad we didn't risk spreading your anti-Hellenic genes amongst our pure race...) Niko Silver 16:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

:D - Francis Tyers · 23:02, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of Greece WikiProject Newsletter - Issue IV - December 2006

The History of Greece WikiProject Newsletter
Issue IV - December 2006

Project news

This is our fourth Newsletter and the last of 2006! Please comment on its form, the way it is delivered , its content etc. We need your ideas and contributions!
Check the new sub-section of the main page Article style and content. Comment on its content and feel free to propose changes or additions.
Check the just created letter for welcoming new members, and feel free to implement modifications in its form!
Καλά Χριστούγεννα (Merry Christmas) to the 29 members of the project, and do not forget: new initiatives are needed in order to keep our project working!

Current proposals and discussions

The Greek and Turkish wikipedians cooperation board has been launched. Stop by, have a look and sound off!.
The Wikipedia:WikiProject Greece has been created. Check the discussion here concerning the interactions of this and the History of Greece project.
Discussion continues at Talk:Pontic Greek Genocide in order to achieve and improve consensus.

To stop receiving this newsletter, or to receive it in a different format, please list yourself in the appropriate section Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Greece/Outreach#Delivery options.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yannismarou (talk • contribs) 14:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Wikiprojects

For me, the only plausible solution is merger. The problem is how is this merger is going to be implemented. WP:GREECE probably has the most appropriate title and a broader scope, but WP:HOG has a much better backround, organization and structure, and it is an active project (whereas WP:GREECE is actually inactive since it was created). We must see how we'll combine these things. And I'll expect a response from the other two members of WP:GREECE.--Yannismarou 16:38, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Look, can you modify the search results that you gave in your view in the RfC? "greek genocide -wikipedia" gets only 1,450 hits, not 1,1million. It is extremely misleading. If you don't want to modify your view, I will simply add a subsection right under your view about the correct figures, if that's ok with you.. Baristarim 21:13, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Please write slower than you can read. Niko Silver 21:16, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Aha. So did you take a look at this [15]? It says "1,450" hits. Do you have some sort of... anti-common sense firewall? Or don't you know that the correct form of google search on Wikipedia is by using the "exact words" feature? So are you modifying your view, or should I create a subsection right under it with the corrected figure? Same thing for Google scholar search. Pls read my posts before replying.. Baristarim 21:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Responded where you posted this the first time. Niko Silver 21:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Can I spam your page one more time? :) Well, I saw your post. It's fine. In any case I have to go now. Merry Christmas! Baristarim 22:11, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Hah! That's the way to do it Baris! Thanks. Merry Christmas to you too! Niko Silver 22:13, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I wish that you are enjoying the holidays with your family! I am sorry btw; I just looked at Alf's and the anon's userpages. Baristarim 21:23, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] :)

I was wondering if you'd spot that :)) - Francis Tyers · 13:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

The edits of W.E.S.U.C.K.B.A.D are scrutinized by the GREEK CHAUVINIST JUNTA!! Niko Silver 13:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

HAHA! :D - Francis Tyers · 13:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

PS. I feel kind of left out, how can I become a member of the GREEK CHAUVINIST JUNTA? :/ - Francis Tyers · 13:41, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Still unaware? But you are! You have been assigned to the cabal for straw argumentation!! Niko Silver 13:48, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Enjoy -- one, and another. - Francis Tyers · 15:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My Request for Adminship

NikoSilver/Archive 8

Thanks for your support on my successful Request for Adminship (final result 78 Support /0 Oppose / 1 Neutral) I have now been entrusted with the mop, bucket and keys. I will be slowly acclimating myself to my new tools over the next months. I am humbled by your kind support and would certainly welcome any feedback on my actions. Please do not hesitate to contact me. Once again, many thanks and happy new year! All the best, Asterion^talk 16:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Мојот проблем со твојте модификации

Здраво, имам проблем со ова, читај тука молам. //Dirak 22:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Здраво, проблем yok. Consequent модификации agree? (тука) Niko Silver 22:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Не, знаем. Барам мојата версија. //Dirak 22:48, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Не ή Ναί? Βαραμ μογιατα βερτσιγια βαράει πολύ η ρημάδα. Δεν βαράμ με тука καλύτερα? Niko Silver 22:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Не (=όχι). Εγώ μπάραμ να δημιουργήσω νεα δεδομένα - εσύ μπάρας να αντιγράψεις άλλο άρθρο (το οποίο μπάρα διορθώσεις). //Dirak 22:57, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Μπα, μπάρα εσύ τότε, αλλά φοβάμαι οτι μπαράς πολύ και θα μπαρακουραστούμε να μπαρακολουθούμε μπας και μας τη μπέσουν μπαμπέσικα (οι μπαμπάρες). Niko Silver 23:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok so be it. But I still object to "translation". There is no actual translation involved, as it is a proper name. Find a better way to word it. /FunkyFly.talk_ 22:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Ti trexei bre paidia? Malko po malko na kataloboume kai emeis :-) Kata ta alla, pragmati psilom... kai kolimeeenos, ox aman ;-) Politis 00:13, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your signature

What happened to your superior signature? ~~•S e an•gorter• ^{Get a signature!} 04:45, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I have decided to become inferior, just like the rest of us here. Probably temporarily... Niko Silver 10:22, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quality press

Hey man, what in Greece would be considered the quality press; e.g. like The Times or The Guardian in the UK. - Francis Tyers · 14:36, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Try (mostly in order of sales) "To Vima", "Proto Thema", "Eleftherotypia", "Ta Nea", "Kathimerini" and maybe "Ethnos" and "Eleftheros Typos". Useful link for cover-pages here. Niko Silver 16:26, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Εθνικισμός

Αληθεια πιστευεις πως ο Μεγας Αλεξανδρος ηταν "Μακεδονας" και οχι Ελληνας??? Εχασα πασα ιδεα για σενα... Mitsos 13:11, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Εσύ το πιστεύεις αυτό. Εγώ λέω οτι ήταν Έλληνας επειδή αυτοχαρακτηριζόταν Έλληνας και είχε τις Ελληνικές αξίες και την Ελληνική παιδεία. Εσύ πιστεύεις οτι έχει διαφορά αν βγήκε από τα αρχίδια Ελληνομακεδόνα ή Οτιδηποτεμακεδόνα. Το μόνο σίγουρο, βέβαια, είναι οτι δεν βγήκε από τέτοιο Μακεδόνα. Niko Silver 16:14, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Οι αρχαιοι μακεδονες ανηκαν στην ελληνικη Φυλη. Ηταν μαλιστα και συγγενεις με τους Δωριεις. Cheers Mitsos 11:12, 30 December 2006 (UTC) ωρα

Πιθανότατα ναί. Αλλά με τη δικιά σου λογική, οι Δωριείς δεν θα έπρεπε ποτέ να "μπασταρδευτούν" με τα υπόλοιπα Ελληνικά φύλλα. Οι Βυζαντινοί δεν θα έπρεπε να "μπασταρδευτούν" με τους Αρμένιους και με όλους τους υπόλοιπους. Ακόμα κι αν έχουμε "ράτσες" εμείς οι άνθρωποι, οι Έλληνες ιστορικά επέλεγαν (θελημένα ή αθέλητα) να διασταυρώνονται με "άλλες ράτσες" και με αυτό τον τρόπο να βελτιώνουν τη δική τους. Αυτό το πράγμα, δεν γίνεται με το να αποκλείεις τους ξένους. Γίνεται μόνον με το να είσαι απόλυτα ανοικτός σε όλους. Έτσι, διαδίδεις την κουλτούρα σου και τον πολιτισμό σου σε περισσότερους, ενώ παράλληλα τον βελτιώνεις κιόλας αφομοιώνοντας τα θετικά στοιχεία τους. Niko Silver 11:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Νικο, ολοι οι Λαοι του κοσμου προερχονται απο το "μπασταρδεμα" αρχαιων φύλων. Οι Δωριεις αναμιχθεικαν με τα υπολοιπα φυλα πουυ ζουσαν στην Ελλαδα (ετσι και αλλιως ειχαν κοινη καταγωγη) και ετσι εγινε η Ελληνικη Φυλη. Οι Βυζαντινοι δεν αναμιχθησαν με τους αρμενιους, και αν αυτο εγινε (ισως εγινε σε μικρη βαση) δεν εγινε με την θεληση τους. "Εσύ πιστεύεις οτι έχει διαφορά αν βγήκε από τα αρχίδια Ελληνομακεδόνα ή Οτιδηποτεμακεδόνα." Φυσικα εχει διαφορα. Εσυ ας πουμε αν εβγαινες απο τα αρχιδια καποιου αλλου δεν θα ησουν ο Νικος. Και αν ο πατερας σου ηταν Σουηδος, θα ησουν και εσυ Σουηδος. Ποιος σου ειπε πως Ελληνες επελεγαν να "διασταυρώνονται" με αλλες φυλες? Οσο για αυτο που λες πως οι Ελληνες γινονται καλυτεροι οταν αφομοιωνουν αλλους λαους, προφανως δεν εχεις καταλαβει τι εννοω. Αυτο που μας κανει Ελληνες ειναι το Αιμα μας, επειδη η κουλτουρα προερχεται απο το Αιμα, την Φυλη, την Καταγωγη. Κατα τη γνωμη μου, αδικως μαλωνουμε. Ηπαρχουν και εθνικιστες που πιστευουν οτι το Εθνος βασιζεται πρωτα στον Πολιτισμο και μετα στην Φυλη. Το θεμα ειναι, σου αρεσει να εχεις τοσους τριτοκοσμικους μεταναστες στην χωρα σου, να μας ταπεινωνουν συνεχεια στα "εθνικα θεματα", να αγοραζουμε γαλοπουλα με δοσεις, να τα σπανε συνεχεια οι "γνωστοι-γνωστοτατοι", να μπορει ο καθενας να βριζει το εθνος και την Ελλαδα και να καιει την σημαια ενω αμα πεις "ζητω το εθνος" γινεσαι ο "κακος ξενοφοβος ρατσιστης"? Εαν οχι τοτε πρεπει να στραφεις στον Εθνικισμο. Mitsos 13:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Διαφωνώ για το "αίμα" και βέβαια δεν είπα οτι επέλεγαν. Η κουλτούρα δεν μπορεί να προέρχεται από το αίμα γιατί το κεφάλι μας γεννιέται άδειο. Το ανάποδο συμβαίνει. Δεν μπορείς να τραβήξεις μια γραμμή στο μπαστάρδεμα στο σημείο που σε βολεύει (π.χ. Αρχαίοι Έλληνες ή Βυζαντινοί) και να αγνοείς το μπαστάρδεμα μετά από αυτή τη γραμμή.

Ναι, μου αρέσουν οι μετανάστες και δεν τους θεωρώ καθόλου τριτοκοσμικούς. Τους θεωρώ πολύ χρήσιμους, και βέβαια όταν βρίσκονται σε ανοιχτόμυαλο περιβάλλον, μόνον ταπείνωση δεν επιδιώκουν. Χρήσιμοι γιατί παρά την ανεργία και τις δόσεις που λες, τελικά δεν είδα κανένα Έλληνα να παίρνει πιλοφόρι ή καλάθι στην πλάτη και να πηγαίνει στην οικοδομή ή στον αγρό. Έχουμε γίνει όλοι ψηλομύτικα "αφεντικά" (του κώλου) και θέλουμε "γραφείο" για να μην είμαστε άνεργοι. Ποιός θα δουλέψει τελικά σ'αυτή τη χώρα? Και αλήθεια, αφού είναι "κατώτεροι", γιατί θες να τους διώξεις και δεν τους ανταγωνίζεσαι στα ίσια? Δεν θα έπρεπε να είναι μεγάλη απειλή για έναν "ανώτερο", σωστά?

Η ταπείνωση, το βρίσιμο του έθνους κλπ που λες επιδιώκεται ως αντίποινο στο στενόμυαλο αποκλεισμό τους, που τους συσπειρώνει και τους ισχυροποιεί, αντί να τους κάνει να θαυμάζουν και να θέλουν να μας μιμηθούν. Παράδειγμα οι Πομάκοι, που ενώ μιλούν Βουλγαρικά και είναι απλά μουσουλμάνοι το θρήσκευμα, αντί να δημιουργούν μία υγιή ξεχωριστή κοινότητα στη Δυτική Θράκη, έχουν συσπειρωθεί με τους Τούρκους (για να προστατευθούν από τη ξενοφοβία μας) και έτσι τους έχουν τριπλασιάσει! Όταν το καταλάβαμε ήταν ήδη αργά.

Επίσης, διαφωνώ όχι μόνον με το ότι οι μετανάστες χειροτερεύουν την οικονομική κατάσταση, αλλά με την τραγωδιοποίηση της οικονομικής κατάστασης αυτής καθ'εαυτής. Η Ελληνική οικονομία είναι τούρμπο. Είμαστε 30στοι κατα κεφαλήν παγκοσμίως (χωρίς π.χ. τους τεράστιους εφοπλιστές μας), έχουμε 9-10% ανεργία, και γενικά πάμε καλά (άσχετα που γκρινιάζουμε). Τι να πούν στην Ανατολική Ευρώπη με τα 30άρια και τα 40άρια (%)? Όποιος θέλει να δουλέψει, δουλειά θα βρεί. Όποιος θέλει να ανέβει, θα ανέβει και μετά θα λέγεται "αυτοδημιούργητος" σαν τόσους μεγάλους και τρανούς επιχειρηματίες που ξεκίνησαν ξυπόλυτοι. Η εναλλακτική της γκρίνιας είναι πολύ λιγότερο αποδοτική!

Έχουμε κληρονομήσει και κληροδοτήσει ατελείωτα πλεονεκτήματα και κουσούρια από τρίτους και εξακολουθούμε να το κάνουμε. Αυτό που χρειάζεται είναι φιλτράρισμα στις αρχές και όχι βέβαια στους ανθρώπους. Άσε που έχουμε και υπογεννητικότητα! Κάθε ψυχή που Ελληνικοποιείται αυτοβούλως, είναι θετική. Αλλά αυτό δεν γίνεται ποτέ με φοβέρα, αποκλεισμό (και βέβαια με "μερική γενοκτονία")...

Όσο για τα καψίματα σημαιών και τέτοια, με βρίσκουν κάθετα αντίθετο κι εμένα, αλλά θεωρώ οτι προέρχονται από δική μας αντιπαλότητα. Niko Silver 14:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Μπορει να μην με πιστεψεις, αλλα οντως ετσι εγινε. Αρχισα να γραφω την μακροσκελη απαντηση μου, και οταν τελειωσα και πατησα save, μου βγηκε ενα μυνημα που ελεγε οτι δεν μπορω να κανω edit επειδη η σελιδα ειναι locked. Πηγα στο history na δω αν ειναι εκανε καποιος protect τη σελιδα σου, και ειδα πως ημουνα loged out! Θα σου ξανααπαντησω (βαριεμαι τωρα), απλα θελω να ξερεις πως δεν παρατησα ετσι την συζητηση. Mitsos 12:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

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