Talk:Nihon Shoki

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[edit] Fabricated Foreign Relations in Chronicles of Japan

Nihonshoki fabricated or exaggerated a considerable amount of its contacts with Korea and China - this is a proven fact. There is a list of examples with claims that Gaya (Minama) being a Japanese colony [1], the Korean kingdom of Baekje paying tribute to the Yamato court being prime cases.--Jh.daniell 00:42, 25 May 2006 (GMT+9:00-Tokyo)

Proven by Mr. Choe Yong-shik? Who the heck is he anyway? --Saintjust 16:05, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Here are some sources: Kojiki and Nihongi, Japanese history chronicles, state that the Yamato kingdom had always influenced events in Korea by sending in troops, sometimes as many as 100,000, and maintained an outpost in Korea. They also state that the Kammu's mother's clan was given the status of a retainer under the emperor after the Baekje kingdom fell. These claims are viewed by many different scholars as unsupported propaganda. Many Koreans, Westeners and some Japanese raise questions about the completeness, objectivity, and reliability of the surviving version of these Japanese sources. They argue early parts of Kojiki and Nihongi were fabricated or exaggerated by the Yamato court to legitimize its rule.

Some Japanese historians and most Korean scholars agree that the Kojiki and Nihongi cannot be read as complete historical truth. Tsuda Sokichi, a Japanese scholar, concluded that the earlier sections of these histories were made up to justify imperial rule. Thus, a myth that Jingu conquered parts of Korea in the Kojiki is rejected as fairy tale inserted by Yamato scholars because of later tense relations between Silla and Yamato. Most scholars agree that the founding date of Japan as 660 B.C.E. and the first thirteen emperors of Japan are mythical and not based on historical fact. Additionally, the Nihongi attributes dates two sexagenary cycles or 120 years of history before they actually happened to make the relatively young Yamato state as respectable as contemporaneous Korean and Chinese states which shows another evidence of bias of the writers. (A sexagenary cycle of sixty years was used to keep a measure of time on a calendar.) [2]. Although the Nihongi and Kojiki state that Korean Kingdoms paid tribute to Yamato, it is not believed by most historians. [3]. [4].

The Nihongi is partly based on Korean history books which have now been lost. [5]. [6]. Korean sources used in the Nihongi are the Baekje-gi (Record of Baekje), Baekje Sinch'an (New Record of Baekje), and Baekje Pon'gi (Original Record of Baekje). Records written in Baekje may have been the basis for the quotes in the Nihongi but textual criticism shows that scholars fleeing the destruction of the Baekje Kingdom to Yamato wrote these histories and the authors of the Nihongi heavily relied upon those sources. [7]. The use of Korean place names in Nihongi is another piece of evidence that the history used Korean sources.

Many of the myths of these two histories also have many similarities with traditions in China, Manchuria, and Korea. [8]. Tortfeasor 17:50, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chronicles?

While it may be a logical and/or literal translation, I cannot imagine that anyone would find "Chronicles of Japan" to be more recognizable than "Nihonshoki". I looked at the title of this article and I assumed that it concerned either (a) some fictional series called Chronicles of Japan, like a novel series or an anime, or (b) an umbrella article encompassing Nihonshoki, Nihongi, Kojiki, Heike Monogatari, Heiji Monogatari, Taiheiki and a whole bunch of others. I propose moving this to Nihonshoki, the far more common and more recognizable name of this document. LordAmeth 19:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Support - move to Nihonshoki. --Endroit 20:19, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Support move to Nihonshoki. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 23:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - Nihonshoki is more commonly used. --Sir Edgar 01:30, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Support Concur with above. Tortfeasor 03:09, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Support Agree with Sir Edgar's statement --Jh.daniell 13:11, 25 May 2006 (GMT+9:00-Tokyo)
  • Support And if only to fight drive-by page moving. ~ trialsanderrors 06:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - If you search "nihonshoki" in Google Scholar or Google Books, Goolge suggests "nihon shoki" as an alternative spelling. The number of hits for "nihon shoki" is greater than that of "nihonshoki" in Google web search, Google Scholar, Google Books. --Kusunose 06:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
    • So, shall we take a vote as to one or the other? Nihonshoki vs Nihon Shoki? LordAmeth 11:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
      • The title of this article has always been "Nihonshoki" until May 24, when somebody moved it to "Chronicles of Japan". I believe that we should move it back to "Nihonshoki" first before discussion the move to "Nihon shoki".--Endroit 17:01, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
        • Okay, well I'm moving it back then. Certainly seems to me there's enough consensus here. LordAmeth 20:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move, obviously. —Nightstallion (?) 12:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nihon Shoki

As I have commented above, Nihon Shoki is more common than Nihonshoki; about 41,600 hits vs about 30,300 hits on Google Web Search, 2520 pages vs 525 pages on Google Books, about 626 vs about 206 on Google Scholar. Also note that when you search "nihonshoki", Google says "Did you mean: nihon shoki". I propose moving this page to Nihon Shoki per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). --Kusunose 07:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC) P.S. If you exclude 'wikipedia' from Google Web Search, results are about 37,000 vs about 13,700 --Kusunose 08:00, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

While I myself have edited "Nihon Shoki" to "Nihonshoki", I can agree with your point. "Nihon Shoki" appears to be the more common usage. Even though I have always known it as "Nihonshoki" that doesn't make it right. In addition, there is the common use of "Samguk Sagi", not "Samguksagi". In reality, "Nihon" and "Shoki" are two kanji words, but placed together. But then again "Nihonjin" is not "Nihon Jin", is it? And what about "Nihonjinron"? I would say it should remain at "Nihonshoki" until conclusive evidence shows it should be moved.--Sir Edgar 05:02, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Based on the evidence presented by Kusunose, I support moving this article to Nihon Shoki. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 21:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Have you put a notice for this proposed move? It must follow proper procedures. The article was just moved to "Nihonshoki". There must be good reasoning for another move to "Nihon Shoki".--Sir Edgar 00:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I have formally requested this move. --Kusunose 02:20, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Nihonshoki → Nishon Shoki – The latter is more common than the former, see above. --Kusunose 02:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
  • Support (above discussion) Tensaibuta 02:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support per what I said above.--Endroit 02:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support per above and evidence below. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

Can we get a list of credible, major sources that use the two different forms and compare? My research so far indicates:

"Nihonshoki"

Akita prefecture: http://www.pref.akita.jp/tiiki/wg2001/eng/sports/sumo.html
Embassy of Japan (in Morocco): http://www.ma.emb-japan.go.jp/francais/donnes_historiques.html not in English
National Diet Library of Japan: http://ndl.go.jp/koyomi/e/history/02_index1.html

"Nihon Shoki"

BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1684975.stm
Britannica: http://www.britannica.com/ebi/article-9319650
Encarta: http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefEdList.aspx?refid=210027407.
Columbia Encyclopedia: http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/J/Japan-lit.asp
National Research Institute for Cultural Properties, Nara http://www.nabunken.go.jp/english/chr.html

I think this is important as we've already moved the article once recently and to do it again so soon would, in my opinion, require careful research and judgement. Please add to above list. No need to sign. --Sir Edgar 01:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

There was a unilateral move from "Nihonshoki" to "Chronicles of Japan" and we voted to move it back. But that's irrelevant to the currently proposed move to "Nihon Shoki".--Endroit 15:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I have added National Diet Library of Japan, Encarta, Columbia Encyclopedia and National Research Institute for Cultural Properties, Nara. --Kusunose 07:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Was there any notice given to time period of this poll?

Did the starter of this poll inform everyone that there was a deadline for voting? No. I resent the fact that there was all this uproar about no time period given for the poll in Talk:Dokdo and yet nobody is screaming foul here. Personally, I thought we were still looking at the list of credible sources using "Nihonshoki" and "Nihon Shoki". I was waiting to see conclusive results prior to casting my vote. Five votes (two of which were placed in an improper fashion) hardly forms a "consensus", in my opinion.--Sir Edgar 01:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nothingness

I find this part completely unnecessary: "This does not necessarily imply that the persons referred to did not exist, merely that there is insufficient evidence to conclude that they existed or can be assigned to a particular period of history. It is much more likely that they were chieftains, or local kings, and that the polities they ruled would not have encompassed all, or even most, of Japan." Huh? Not only are there no evidence but to believe that someone lived 100+ years and was born from a Sun goddess doesn't seem credible to me. It is not even likely they were chieftains that ruled all or even most or even remotely most or even more than a household. It is like saying "even though there is absolutely no evidence for King Arthur, he probably existed but was more like a regional ruler than a king". Complete garbage. 66.171.76.237 04:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

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