User talk:Nightngle

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Ok ~ Starting a talk page, since I've been playing outside the sandboxes. While I tend to be nervous about making people mad, this is actually a good thing to shake that off and plunge in and see which ripples become good things and which ones I can learn from. If I've dabbled in places and not observed proper protocols, please let me know and help point me in the right direction. I'm actually a good workhorse for working on consistency between pages, making minor edits and that sort of thing. However, I am very new to this, so I know I'll make mistakes along the way. I like the idea of being bold, but am more of a "Be Mild" kind of person.

Contents 1 First controversy 2 Reference to An Argument Against People of Color 3 infobox for hindu religious figures? 4 Greetings 5 Buddhism Portal 6 Nursing Portal & wikiproject 7 Welcome! 8 TSC Lowe 9 Thanks for the assessments... 10 Welcome 11 Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion 12 Quorn 13 Buddhism Article list 14 History 15 Orphaned fair use image (Image:Pema Chodron.jpg) 16 Template 17 Helping out with the Unassessed Wikipedia Biographies 18 Wikiproject Biography March 2007 Newsletter

[edit] First controversy

On the Thich Nhat Hanh page, there is a tug of war going on with the phrase "people of color". There have been a couple of retreats by the OI for "people of color", and I added that fact to the TNH page, as one of several focused retreats given. The phrase was deleted, considering it controversial. I've recommended taking the discussion to the Colored article, since that article addresses the negative connotation of the phrase as well. Here's what I've written on the Talk:Colored page:

Connotation of the phrase "people of color"

The article states that the phrase "people of color" is offensive because it makes a distinction that implies being white is the benchmark. While I do understand this is true, on the other hand, when you do a Google search on that phrase, over 8 million results are found. On the first couple of pages, those results seem to indicate to me that ethnic and racial minorities use that phrase extensively to create activist organizations to support one another. Wouldn't it be a more neutral point of view to say that the phrase "people of color" is used in the positive ways of banding people together for social change and support, as well as being of a negative connotation to others?

Strikes me as challenging to both address issues for a minority group yet still remain respectful and neutral in judgements. Kind of like the hypothetical situation of a group of women of similar age, weight, height, hair color, same dress color, etc. across the room - one of them black - yet, feeling uncomfortable saying "Mary is the black woman". Is it just as dis-respectful to an aspect about Mary that is an important part of her identity to omit that obvious distinction?

I appreciate any input to help me understand this important issue.

I certainly want to be sensitive and not use the wrong terms. However, I wonder how one could conduct and promote a retreat that was especially aimed to support, well, people of color if one can't use that phrase. If you use too generic a term, like "people who feel alienated in society" or "a retreat to discuss the issues of race, racial identity, and the stuggles of being in the minority" would people come who then would feel like fish out of water in that group as well, or would you loose the intention of wanting to reach out to people who wouldn't realize you were talking to them? Seems equally wrong to say "this is a retreat for everyone but whites". Does it sound like I'm foundering here?? Someone toss me a life preserver and help me understand. :) Nightngle 15:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reference to An Argument Against People of Color

Cheryl, thanks for the work done here. Here's something I've written regarding the issue of whether to use the phrase "people of color."

http://www.woodmoorvillage.org/2006/07/featured_post_b.html

Thanks,

--Ncordova 08:21, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey Nacho! Thanks for the thanks, and thanks for the link to your blog. You make some very interesting points about "people of color", I hope you take the discussion to the OI as well. My feeling is that the bottom line becomes context for this phrase, like so many others.

On the OI site "wiki", I have to admit that I can't quite figure out how to use the "php wiki". To illustrate what OI wiki pages might be like, I've been working here at the world wild site. If you go to the bottom of Thay's page and click on Category:Order of Interbeing you'll see the pages related to the OI - some of which I've worked on or created. These pages are more of an encyclopedia flavor, and I would guess that similar OI pages would have a more "friends of Thay" feel to them. It would be interesting to see the difference between sites. This site has an important mantra of "neutral point of view", which in a lot of way would be a good thing to promote on our pages as well. I know it's made me think harder about what I write, since I know that folks who don't look at Thay or the order the way I do will scrutinize the work. No throw away assumptions or flowery language welcome. ;-)

I did go ahead and write up a page for Sister Chan Khong here, even though Mitchell asked me to take down her bio page on the OI site. The more I learn about her, the more I believe that history should record her hard work during the Vietnam war and that the OI should recognize her efforts to create and maintain our order. Whether she "rubs some people the wrong way" or not, what she's done is nothing short of awe inspiring.

At any rate, hopefully, we can download this software onto the OI site soon and get the fun started with OI members creating and editing articles! Nightngle 01:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] infobox for hindu religious figures?

Would you be interested in make a Hindu version of your Buddhist infobox?--D-Boy 21:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

For the categories, I guess a good example would be on Adi Shankara and Ramanuja. The color we use for Hindu articles is orange or a saffron color. You can see it on most Hinduism articles.--D-Boy 20:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The infobox would probably be the same except for Practice School:, Lineage: Order:.--D-Boy 20:40, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's a first draft of the Template:Infobox Hindu teacher/leader

We could use the box in Adi Shankara for the religious leaders. I had also thought of it. --^Babub→Talk 06:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greetings

[edit] Buddhism Portal

Hi Cheryl!

I've just joined Wikipedia and added my name to the list at the Buddhism Portal. I've also tried to contact the other people there, and not got any replies yet.

In particular, the portal manager, deeptrivia seems to be away/missing. Is this normal? I'd have thought there'd be a more active Buddhist community! Rentwa 08:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nursing Portal & wikiproject

Hi, You may or may not be aware that User:THB has crated a Nursing Portal and Nursing Wikiproject aiming to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Nursing. It would be great if all Wikipedian nurses got involved. — Rod ^talk 19:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome!

[edit] TSC Lowe

I wanted to thank you for the words of encouragement on my Thaddeus S. C. Lowe bio. All of a sudden it is being read and with favorable comment. Thanx--Magi Media 06:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I have placed the article for FA nomination after having made some suggested adjustments. Then I received a Barnstar during Peer Review. Would you be so kind as to support the nomination? --Magi Media 14:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for the assessments...

...of Robert Hager and Steve Kroft! Gzkn 01:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome

Welcome to Wikiproject Buddhism! Just dig right in.

On a side note, I noticed a discussion above about "people of color" as I was getting ready to edit your page. As a "person of color", I rather enjoy the phrase, and have never seen it percieved as anything other than an activist (or friendly and inclusive) term. Other people might have a different philosophy, but I have yet in my 39 years to experience it. I didn't read the full discussion - hope this helps, and again, Welcome!NinaEliza (talk • contribs • count • logs • email) 02:17, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion

The scope of the project is rather hard to be specific with, particularly with recent vandalism to the project page. Basically, it is the intention of the project to, in no particular order,

• (1) function as a back-up in the event that any existing project in the field collapses, which to me personally seems likely given their number and the rather limited scope of some of them, so that those articles can remain under some sort of management,
• (2) deal with the larger subjects of religion, such as the pages on Religion, God, and so on, which would include material which falls outside of the scope of any of the existing projects, and
• (3) to provide a place where the religions which do not fall under the scope of any of the other existing projects, such as Baha'i Faith, Iglesia ni Cristo, Ayyavazhi, Falun Gong, Unification Church, and so on, can receive some concerted attention. If this is of any appeal to you, you would be more than welcome to join, as would anyone else interested in these subjects. It is also my hope that, if there should ever prove to be sufficient interest in any denomination/sect/faith/word of your choice, to help in the creation of either a seperate project dealing with that group or a dedicated group within the Religion project to focus on them. Thank you again for your curiosity, and I wish you the best of luck editing and in dealing with some of the other editors that you are almost certain to face at some point. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Badbilltucker (talk • contribs) 14:50, 22 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Quorn

While I may have been a bit fanciful in my reason for the edit on the Quorn page, I think that the revision I made not only was relevant, but didn't violate NPOV in any way. Could you please explain to me why you feel that the information I added violated NPOV? I ask especially because this is the first time (except for some revert wars I got into the middle of regarding Kashmir) I have ever been accused of being in violation. Considering that I cited the information I included, and it is most relevant to the controversy, I would appreciate an explanation, or else I can only assume that you have made a bad-faith edit on the Quorn entry. 02:45, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Colorful anecdotes are not needed in this article, especially the one you added. It was clearly added to be gratuitous, not to add to the allergy issue of the product which is covered well already. Why haven't you gone to the article about Peanut or any other food that people can be allergic to and added specific, graphic descriptions of those reactions? Why not one of the other examples instead of the one you choose? Obviously, the quote (including a double !!) is inflamatory and meant to discredit the product, or just to gross people out. I absolutely stand behind my edit - the specifics of someone's diarrhea is not needed in this article. Nightngle 15:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The reason the "double !!" was included was because that is how the complaint listed on the cited website displayed the quote. The reason I edited Quorn and not Peanut is because I had already been exposed to the CSPI website with the alarming quote I used. While you personally may consider the quote to be "inflammatory and meant to discredit the product, or just to gross people out", the quote I put in adds to the nature of the controversy, and therefore I am putting the information back into the article. Thanks for the discussion, and I really wanted to give you a good chance to explain your side, but I don't think you have made your case. Jfiling 10:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that you're edits in the past show the kind of editor that you are. I will be deleting that post - it is not a NPOV. It is you who need to make your case - you added a specific quote from an individual with no explanation for why it is germaine to an encyclodia article. No other food that people have allergies have quotes from individuals with their specific, graphic experiences listed. You need to support the inclusion. Nightngle 21:40, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your personal attack on me means, but I am filing a Request for Comment on this matter, after reverting your edits. I will again state that the only reason I added that quote was to show the depths that the CSPI has sunk to in trying to discredit Quorn, which is germane to the "Controversy" section to which I added it. I'm not going to get into a revert war, because of the Request for Comment, so if you choose to once again revert it we can simply wait Jfiling 23:30, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea why you would consider my revert a personal attack. It is not - I have clearly stated my opinion on this matter and stand by it. Just because I don't back down from my position doesn't mean I'm attacking you personally. If the site accepts personal quotations on this page, it opens a door that I don't think should be opened. If the negative quote is allowed, why would it not be fair to add positive quotes or testimonials to balance that? Each article would become a free-for-all with personal opinions quoted to create and support a point of view. Nightngle 14:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Buddhism Article list

Just wanted to make sure I clarified why I restored the category you reasonably deleted from the list. Believe me, I agree that the current categorization schema is in serious need of work. Both the Dharmic and Levantine (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) groups have articles which are currently categorized in such a way as is basically inappropriate and occasionally almost laughable. I have every intention of trying to fix all the existing errors once the lists are made, so that we have a better idea which specific faulty categorizations exist and which other categorization options already exist. Right now, however, I am still in the early stages of collecting the data, and as a result don't have a full grasp yet of the existing categorization scheme, particularly as I'm going article by article and category by category to ensure that they're all gotten. If, however, you ever see a categorization which you believe completely inappropriate, by all means remove or change the category on the article page itself. I can understand that some of them might be particularly offensive or ludicrous, and have myself already seen some of the latter. Thanks for your understanding. Badbilltucker 16:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Not to worry, Bill (may I call you Bill? :) - I just thought I'd help out. I've been meaning to go through some of those root articles for awhile. I like that you're working on these category schemes, it's very helpful! I was just doing a bit of housekeeping. Lots of over-views of Buddhism tend to be taken from older sources where Western writers (starting with Schopenour, and the Theosophists) tended to translate Buddhist texts from their own world view and paradigms, so we find some problematic terminology - Acsetism being a good example. Keep up the good work - you're doing the heavy lifting, I'm just following behind and working on the details. It's all good. Nightngle 18:17, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

Dear Cheryl,

It seems that you or someone has erased the reference to Thay as a Zen Master. I have re-inserted it.

At the time that I did all the research for this article last spring I was in contact with Sister Annabel, Brother Phap Nguyen, Brother Phap Bi, and, through them, with Sister Chan Khong. At the time it seemed quite clear as to what the question was, and it seemed quite clear as to what Sister Chan Khong's answer was.

In any case the direct authority is Thay himself, who signs our ordination papers as "Dhyana Master ... of the Lam Te Dhyana School". If this is not so, then why doesn't Thay sign the certificates as "Dharmacharya ... of the Lam Te Dhyana School"?

Several comments about the discussion in the archives:

1. The paper by Nguyen and Barber, in the book edited by Prebish: I have this book in front of me, as I also had it last spring when I was doing this research. Nguyen and Barber interviewed two Vietnamese clerics, from which they derived the statement, "In contrast, Thich Nhat Hanh, though he was never known as a Ch'an master in Vietnam, has become known as a famous master in the West." From this some people have gotten the meaning that Thay was never received Dharma transmission. Since Thay received Dharma Transmission on May 1, 1966, just 10 days before he left Vietnam both sides of this issue can be literally correct. Thay was not widely known as a Ch'an master in Vietnam because he wasn't named as one until just before he left Vietnam. Nguyen and Barber's statement is literally true though it has been widely misinterpreted to mean much more than it says.

2. The archives contain a statement that the Plum Village web site contains no reference to Thay as a Zen Master. This is simply not true. Let me say that again, simply not true. Look for example at http://www.plumvillage.org/howToHelp.htm in the second paragraph. More to the point is the wonderful paper by Thay Phap Dung, "A Letter to Friends About Our lineage", which refers to Thay as a Zen Master and gives our lineage back for 8 generations of Zen Masters.

This is the first time I have looked at the Wikipedia since our discussion last summer. It made me literally sick to my stomach that people could be so destructive, seemingly just on a whim, such as the fellow who seemed to vow to erase all copies in the world of the phrase "Zen Master", or even worse, the many parties who act out of jealousy or political anger against Thay.

Bert Mayo, Chân Tuê. An, Order of Interbeing

[edit] Orphaned fair use image (Image:Pema Chodron.jpg)

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[edit] Template

Hi. Thanks for your nice comments on Template talk:ModernDharmicWriters. Unfortunately, the template is up for deletion. Maybe you want to comment on this? Regards, --Bondego 09:43, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments about the template. I think the high number of authors that could qualify for the template could indeed be a problem in the long term. But at the moment, these articles are still very incomplete and underdeveloped. In the short term, the template may also help a bit to bring some focus to these articles, which currently have often NPOV and serious WP:BLP problems. In the long term, when we have more of these articles which are also well developed, the "category only" solution would be better IMO. This is the kind of template that will maybe become obsolete sometime in the future. Regards, --Bondego 23:01, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Helping out with the Unassessed Wikipedia Biographies

Seeing that you are an active member of the WikiBiography Project, I was wondering if you would help lend a hand in helping us clear out the amount of [unassessed articles] tagged with {{WPBiography}}. Many of them are of stub and start class, but a few are of B or A caliber. Getting a simple assessment rating can help us start moving many of these biographies to a higher quality article. Thank you! --Ozgod 21:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiproject Biography March 2007 Newsletter

The March 2007 issue of the Biography WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. Mocko13 21:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)