Talk:Nicolaus Copernicus

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Nicolaus Copernicus article.
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Nicolaus Copernicus was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake.

Date of review: 18 September 2007

Please visit /Nationality to read and contribute to discussions regarding Copernicus' nationality – thank you!

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[edit] Copernican heliocentrism separated

As it was propsoed for quite same time, I've separated Copernican heliocentrism in order to shorten the main biography, and keep that article focussed on science, without frequent edit wars or vandals. Please edit the remaining, hastily shortened section, and expand the new article. -- Matthead discuß!     O       08:43, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copernicus as monetary reformer

To cover also the work of Copernicus as monetary reformer, which has merits of ist own, I've linked an "forgotten" article: Copernicus and coin reform. There, also the ever-popular political/national backgound conflicts had been discussed on Talk:Copernicus and coin reform. -- Matthead discuß!     O       08:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC) .

[edit] Anybody against Prussian as denomination?

Copernicus (latin, real name was Koppernigk) was a Prussian. Thorn and Frauenburg were cities of the Prussian Confederation who rebelled against the Teutonic Order and requested the protection of King Kazimierz IV Jagiellon. These cities became part of the Kingdom of Poland as Royal Prussia after the Thirteen Years' War. So the denomination as Prussian is neutral as far as I can see. Any objections?

Additionally, the Province of Prussia was never a part of Germany (neither Holy Roman Empire nor German Confederation) until 1871. The population was mixed linguistically. In the region of Prussia the people spoke mostly German in major cities, Kashubian or Polish in rural areas, and Lithuanian in the area of Memel.

Prussian is neutral because it combines both the Polish and the German heritage. It refers to a historical region. --Der Eberswalder 19:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Fine with me, was proposed before as someone pointed out who deleted your entry and moved it to Talk:Nicolaus Copernicus/Nationality. You want to use Casimir IV Jagiellon and Kingdom of Poland (1320–1385) (for the situation of his birthtime), though. -- Matthead discuß!     O       21:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
These people were all Prussians, regardless who governed them or which language they spoke. The part where Koppernigk came from was called Polish Prussia or Royal Prussia (western part). The other part was Brandenburgian Prussia or Ducal Prussia (eastern part). Those who revert should say why they revert. Prussian is a term like Kashubian or Lithuanian. It is different from German or Polish, this is not the issue here. This guy was undisputedly a Prussian (in the old sense of this word). --Der Eberswalder 00:48, 14 January 9th 2007 (UTC)

The reason I reverted was because there was no consensus/discussion regarding an insertion of nationality on the nationality talk page. You should wait a bit more before changing the article, allow a discussion to take place. My edit summary could have been a lot better, I'm sorry for that. Philip Gronowski Contribs 01:00, 14 January 9th 2007 (UTC)

Rather than be in favour of putting the word "Prussian" in front of "astronomer" until there's disagreement, I'm against "Prussian" as long as it doesn't have widespread agreement. While Prussian may be the most accurate one, the term "German" often springs to mind, as well. This feeling would be compounded by the fact that the German name was highlighted and put first. Without a doubt, not everyone would tolerate that and therefore the previous version, probably the fairest as it avoids asserting any nationality-point of view, should be kept until there's agreement otherwise. For that purpose, it would be advisable for you to read the archives and then argue on that basis, that is, if you haven't come to another conclusion by then, which, I hope, you might. I'm not talking of the "right" point of view concerning his nationality, nor confirm or deny that "Prussian" might be the most accurate version from a historical point of view. I'm talking of a conclusion in special regard to the dispute. Sciurinæ 11:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

His name was Nikolas Koppernigk. He later latinized it into Copernicus. The part of Prussia (region) he came from was a part of Poland (Royal Prussia), so he was a Polish citizen from a German-speaking Hanse town. Nobody disagrees about this. --Der Eberswalder 05:50, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What country was Copernicus born in and where did he live ?

To everyone, particularly Eberswalder, you write, that Copernicus was born in Royal Prussia. Even thought it says this in Wikipedia, it is nevertheless wrong. So is much of what gets input in Wikipedia. Therefore please do not copy it. (As sample please read all the 'Mikolaj of Rynsk, the Polish knight' = Talk/Nicholas von Renys discussions and back and forth, especially this part Rogala Clan Heraldry Snobbery and Document Falsification

A very rare, one of the earliest detailed maps, is from 1492 (1500) and depicts the roads from Germany to Rome (map in reverse direction)[1] City of Thorn, (Preissen Preussen (Prussia), where Copernicus was born. The country was Preussen, Prussia. The name Koeniglich Preussen (engl.Royal Prussia), did not exist during Copernicus' lifetime. It only began to be used by the 18th C during the time of the electors. Also the kings of Poland were kings of Poland only. They were dukes of Lithuania, Kiew, Masovia western Prussia etc. So lets stick to the most accurate information. We do not need more people to copy nonsense and worse, like for example the Nicolas von Renys, born of Polish Rogala clan (see Talk/N.Renys). This EN-Wikipedia, just like the DE do not reflect most accurate info and all you have to do is jump in and quickly fix it. We asked you already to go very careful. Look at all the endless debates and the countless histories. It took many months to just get some points agrred on (not really right), but when you want to go one step further, a whole group again gangs up and all the work is wasted. I hope you get it. Thanks. Best regards Labbas 17 January 2007

The name Royal Prussia might not have existed but the part he came from was annexed by the Kingdom of Poland. In my edit I did not use the term Royal Prussia but Prussian Confederation. --Der Eberswalder 05:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Polish kings were ruling over crown of Poland. The kingdom of Poland encompassed Masovia and Royal Prussia. The treaty and later discussions and arguments made it very clear, that Royal Prussia was considered part of Poland and Polish kings ruled it as part of Poland. Just read the Sejm discussion during final unification and you will know all the arguments presented by Prussian opposition and Polish Sejm Szopen 08:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the Monastic State of the Teutonic Knights was parted in 1466 with the 2nd Peace of Thorn. The eastern part (except the Archbishopric of Warmia) stayed under the Teutonic Order (they became Polish vassals until 1657), and the western part (including the eastern Warmia) was annexed by Poland. That is what these German Hanseatic cities wanted. For that purpose they founded the Prussian Confederation because they thought they would get more autonomy as Polish citizens than as Teutonic citizens. The entire country was still called Prussia, regardless to which political union the parts belonged. --Der Eberswalder 10:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, with addition that those were not just German cities, but Polish gentry as well. Confederation was founded by mainly German-speaking cities and mainly Polish-speaking gentry. Both kinds of citizens considered themselves _probably_ primarily as "Prussians", however. Some people argued, that if not the partitions, there would be Prussian nation on the shore of the Baltic - however during XIX century Polish-speaking Prussians become Poles, and German-speaking Prussians become Germans. Szopen 12:17, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
It is comparable to the Swiss. They are neither Italian nor French nor German, they are Swiss. --Der Eberswalder 13:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

No, it's NOT! During Kopernik's time Prussia was not a country (for the next few centuries) and Switzerland was. He was born in the Polish city of Toruń (not part of Prussia till 1792) and spent most of his life in the Polish province of Warmia. Space Cadet 16:57, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Sure, everything and everybody was, is, and will be Polish - especially English Wikipedia. -- Matthead discuß!     O       02:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh, sure, ridicule me, accuse me of stuff, put words in my mouth, instead of answering any of my points. Pretty low. Space Cadet 04:44, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
He did not answer your points probably because they are (sorry to say) rubbish. Place of birth and living do not define nationality. What would you say about Jews who had lived in Poland for centuries? They didn't even have their own country, so maybe there were no Jews at all until 1947? Or what about Poles in the era of Partitions of Poland? 62.29.136.15 20:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Prussian Law, Culmer Kulmer Law, Kulmer Handfeste Citizenship meant being or becoming a burgher a citizen of a city ( not countryship). The Hanse cities Elbing Danzig Thorn etc were city republics and a person became a citizen of that particular city. A requirement was Deutscher Zunge (German language). Sample of some laws valid for all of Prussia (East and West) as written down:

...in allen gerichten, zu culmischen rechte gelegen, soll man klagen und richten zu deutscher sprache. 1594 Culm

...im ganzen lande Preussen soll vermoege culmischer handfeste einerley culmische muenze seyn, von klarem und reinem silber, dergestalt, das 60 schillinge 1 mark waegen sollen. 1594 Culm

Preußische Landrecht:...im ganze lande zu Preussen soll einerley Culmische pfund, scheffel, tonne, ellen und allerhand ander maße und gewichte seyn... printed in Rostock 1620 Labbas 19 January 2007

Copernicus was as Polish as Reinhold Messner (from South Tyrol) is an Italian. He is, in a way, and he is not. Messner is Tyrolian from Tyrol and Copernicus was Prussian from Prussia. Easy.
--Der Eberswalder 13:51, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Is our article on Prussian Confederation wrong? It says:
"formed on 21 February 1440 by a group of 53 gentry and clergy and 19 Prussian cities, under the leadership of the Hanseatic cities of Danzig (Gdańsk), Elbing (Elbląg), and Thorn (Toruń)."
or maybe the section on the Thirteen Year War in the Royal Prussia article is wrong, it says;
"During the Thirteen Years' War ("War of the Cities"), the Prussian Confederation, led by the cities of Gdańsk (Danzig), Elbląg (Elbing), and Toruń (Thorn), as well as gentry from Chełmno Land (Kulmerland) asked, in February 1454, for Polish support against the Teutonic Order's rule. The rebellion also included major cities from the eastern part of the Order's lands, such as Kneiphof (Knipawa), a part of Königsberg (Królewiec). The war ended in October 1466 with the Second Treaty of Toruń, which provided for the Order's cession to the Polish crown of its rights over the western half of Prussia, including Eastern Pomerania (Pomerelia), Elbląg (Elbing), Malbork (Marienburg), and Chełmno (Kulm) districts."
and our Peace of Toruń (1466) article states;
"In the treaty the Teutonic Order lost the territories of Pomerelia (Eastern Pomerania) with Gdańsk, Chełmno Land with Chełmno and Toruń, the mouth of the Vistula with Elbląg and Malbork (Marienburg), and Warmia (Ermland) with Olsztyn (Allenstein). The Order also acknowledged the rights of the Polish Crown for Prussia's western half, subsequently known as Polish or Royal Prussia. Warmia became autonomous Prince-Bishopric. Eastern Prussia, later called Duchy of Prussia remained with the Teutonic Order until 1525 and the grandmaster was supposed to swear a personal oath to the king of Poland and furnish him with military. In order to avoid giving the oath, the grand masters simply made it their practice not to visit to Prussia."

[edit] Multiple edits to Nicolaus Copernicus today

Please review this article as several anonymous IPs struck this article today and did a lot of edits. I tried to keep up with them but some edits may have slipped through. Ronbo76 00:48, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your efforts. My hunch is that many recent-change-patrollers shy away from potential content-related conflicts. Though the IP was skilled in the ref-system, it's hard to make out what he or she was tampering with the brackets. Preview or Wiki-sandbox could really help in his case.
Regarding the content changes, I must agree in part with the IP. As far as I can remember (almost a year ago), Copernicus's mother was German and his father in all likelihood Polish or sth. Because of this, the source shouldn't be used to assert a nationality of Copernicus's family. But the rest of his edits (like the signature in the very first sentence and the general behaviour) were clearly unconstructive. Sciurinæ 11:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I was not too keen on the, thus a son. . ., nationality sentence either. But, this page has been on my watchlist since vandal IPs struck it a while back. When it popped up on my watchlist with edits by anonymous IPs, I reviewed the history to see what sections had been affected. And, yes, you are right that even in preview mode, it was difficult to discern what section had really been tampered with - the edits and refs were that good. In essence, I defaulted to the advice another user gave me about vandal patrol: if you can't figure out what are good edits versus bad (but do know that bad edits did occur), find a previous edition you are relatively certain about and revert to it. Then, let the white knight editors do their thing.
To get back to the nationality statement, I determined it had been there for several revisions. Suddenly it and another section were getting hit. The nationality statement should have been addressed here to potentially avoid edit wars as then users like me could discern what the general conscensus was. Unfortunately in my mind that sentence while poorly written does have a truth element to it, i.e., it would be similar to saying the U.S. was under the thumb of the King of England at one time.
I do appreciate that you approve of my humble efforts. Yesterday, the WP:WDEFCON, aka Wiki DefCon Meter, went to two late in the afternoon just as I was getting ready for a meeting. It was difficult to keep up with all my watchlist pages getting hit but I stayed in the battle as long as I could (even delaying dinner). Cheers, Ronbo76 15:15, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Why was the entry original signature Nicolaus Coppernic [1] by 207.245.84.70 (17 January) removed? It is an additional information. And why was the article protected anyway? I see no reason for this. He was simply a Prussian, neither a German nor a Pole. Compare it to the Swiss people, same principle. --Der Eberswalder 13:37, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

the Original Signature tidbit was added by a user who was evading a block for POV pushing, personal attacks, violation of 3RR, revert-warring etc. etc. and was unverifiable. If somebody could go to the Archives he was claiming have the signature on file, then sure it can be added back in. But then of course it must also be dated and no other archive have an older dated signature on file that differs from the one claimed by this blocked user. If we were to allow this to be in the article without being referenced properly, anyone could make a improper reference like that for any topic. for instance 2+2=5, as recorded in the Archives of Varmia's Diocese. No Original Research means it should be from a published source, if we could find one then it would be great to add it back in, but then again whether his signature really matters is another dispute.
--Jadger 23:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Nicolaus Coppernic

Der Eberswalder, About the Nicolaus Coppernic signatures was publicized in Polish research by prof Marian Biskup. He is famous and realiable scientist at Nicolaus Copernicus University in Torun. Short decription of this research is on page: [2] Look for: “Z badań prof. Mariana Biskupa,” at the bottom of the page. You need some trusted interpreter but the administrators knows each other well. AS> —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.68.39.229 (talk) 10:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

Andrew, please stop evading your block for violation of policies 3RR, NPA, revert-warring, NPOV, etc. etc. You have now been blocked for a whole month, you will get nothing accomplished until you obey the rules.
--Jadger 00:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copernicus was an astrologer -- put this fact in the article

Why does the fact that Copernicus was a fully confirmed astrologer keep getting deleted from the article? You all aren't trying to whitewash history are you? Astrology and astronomy were still largely one and the same thing during Copernicus' time; the split between the two fields wasn't that far off from his death date, though. --172.145.6.40 11:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I do not but astrologer in modern meaning is an unscientific field. It is prediction of future by observing of stars. If Copernicus was practicing this kind of art ?--202.167.254.68 18:11, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Probably, Johannes Kepler as well. As science progresses, the view on each scientific discipline changes as well over time. --Der Eberswalder 11:07, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

If Copernicus or Keppler did not attempt to predict future by observing stars we should not name them astrologers. We need use modern standards and modern meanings. It can be made a notation that contemporaries could name then astrologer for the reason of different terminology, that’s all. AS>

[edit] Doubled fragment

Who will remove the doubled fragment: "The father of Copernicus, possibly a Germanized Slav [8], had been a citizen of Cracow, but left the (then) capital of Poland in 1460 to move to Thorn/Toruń (German/Polish). That Hanseatic city was also part of the Prussian Confederation, which, some decades before Copernicus' birth, had tried to gain independence from the Teutonic Knights who had ruled the area for two hundred years, but imposed high taxes that were hindering economic development. This led to the Thirteen Years' War and the Second Treaty of Thorn of 1466: Thorn/Toruń and Prussia's western part, called "Royal Prussia", became connected to the Kingdom of Poland, which had supported the uprising, while the eastern part remained under the administration of the Teutonic Order, later to become "Ducal Prussia"

from the article? --202.167.254.68 18:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The article is now unprotected; feel free to make this edit. Ral315 » 07:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Typo in caption

"Statue of a seated Copernicus holding a armillary sphere" - ∅ (∅), 10:54, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The article is now unprotected; feel free to make this edit. Ral315 » 07:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Status as Lutheran "saint"

I would request that the article include the fact that Copernicus is commemorated as a teacher by the Lutheran Church on May 24, and that he be added to the Category:Lutheran saints. Thank you. John Carter 15:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The article is now unprotected; feel free to make this edit. Ral315 » 07:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Seven parts of Copernican theory

The "seven parts of Copernicus' theory" could use some improvement. Part 1 (There is no one center in the universe) seems to contradict Part 3 (The center of the universe is near the sun). I suggest changing them to:

The major parts of Copernican theory are:
Heavenly motions are uniform, eternal, and circular or compounded of several circles (epicycles).
The center of the universe is near the Sun.
Around the Sun, in order, are Mercury, Venus, Earth and Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and the fixed stars.
The Earth has three motions: daily rotation, annual revolution, and annual tilting of its axis.
Retrograde motion of the planets is explained by the Earth's motion.

The existing seven parts were quoted in this Wired article [[3]], but I think that the article is a little misleading. Roger 20:01, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The article is now unprotected; feel free to make this edit. Ral315 » 07:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm a coward, but I can count. The text says "seven parts" but only six are on the list. I won't try to fix the article because I don't know what the right fix is, not having access to the Compendium. If the Compendium has seven points, the seventh should be listed; if there are different ways of reading the Compendium, then the word "seven" should be changed to "six." Martin X. Moleski, SJ 12:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] When observing the night sky, what did Nicolaus Copernicus what did he do?

Whenobserving the night sky, what did Nicolaus Copernicus what did he do? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.193.121.128 (talk) 23:16, 28 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Polish astronomer

There is no doubt he was Polish astronomer, according to encyclopedia Britannica. Its removal is inappropriate and near to vandalism. ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 00:15, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Yawn! You think that's the first time someone's thought of that? This argument comes up all the time; it really is better just not to mention nationality. You may believe you are correct, but if you insist on pressing your claims you'll be commiting yourself to a revert war which will waste lots of time and end only in the page getting admin protected. Regards, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 00:28, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Original research is now the policy of wikipedia ? Britannica is not the source anymore ? ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 00:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems that all the world knows Copernicus was Polish — except for Wikipedia. No one questions that Leonardo da Vinci was Italian, though Italy did not then exist as a state. But some question the Polish nationality of Copernicus, citizen of a Polish Kingdom that certainly did exist, and who defended Olsztyn against the Teutonic Order!

logologist|Talk 02:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The dispute goes far beyond wikipedia and has started long before computers existed. To decide this dispute, books were written, monuments erected and celebrations held. You can't believe Wikipedia is to join a side, do you? Has NPOV lost all its meaning on Wikipedia? You also can't have read the talk page if you believe that Wikipedia is alone in not proclaiming he was Polish. Worse, you might have read the talk page and decided to restart the same discussion over and over to make it impossible for anyone to read the whole page and cause everyone trying to fall asleep and drive others to despair by its Sisyphean repetition of arguments. Sciurinæ 12:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Shall we take up a discussion of the supposed Polish ancestry of the German, Friedrich Nietzsche? I think that has about as much merit as endeavoring to make a German out of Copernicus. As I mentioned in the "Copernicus" article's "Nationality" section — in a comment which you saw fit to delete — Polish history is replete with patriotic Poles of German extraction who have contributed much to every walk of Polish life. One of the more striking examples is the German-born and -trained Admiral Józef Unrug, who saved the Polish Navy at the outbreak of World War II and, on becoming a German prisoner-of-war, refused to speak German to German World War I brothers-in-arms and Nazi bigwigs who sought to win him over to the Nazi cause. This, when Unrug never fully mastered Polish. In short, ancestry and language-spoken do not necessarily, of themselves, define a person's identity. Copernicus' defense of Olsztyn against the Teutonic Order sufficiently demonstrates his loyalties. logologist|Talk 09:21, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Nietzsche? The myth of his Polish ancestry was disproven. Maybe Chopin would be more comparable concerning questionable single-nationality. Sciurinæ 22:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nationality categories must be restored

As it is standard for people to be categorised by nationality, excluding categories here does not have an appearance of neutrality at all, but is prima facie evidence that Wikipedia is taking a biased point of view. If necessary add multiple nationalities. I don't give a hoot about what nationality he was, but the current "solution" is no solution at all, but rather an admission of failure and an accomodation with biased agendas - and anyone familiar with how Wikipedia normally categorises people is liable to notice that. CalJW 00:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Please familiarise yourself with the previous discussion here before taking drastic measures on this subject such as putting up tags. Sciurinæ 22:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV tag

I have added a POV tag, due to the deliberate removal of the nationality information, without which this cannot be a full and unbiased article. CalJW 00:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

This article contains more information on the subject's nationality than any other I've seen on wikipedia (did you overlook the section?). Readers are to make up their own minds what nationality he has. To recall: "The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions." It is therefore not our job to assert any of them, or even the intermediate "Cat:Polish astronomer, Cat:German astronomer", as you suggested when you said "If necessary add multiple nationalities". It is also in line with Wikipedia:Categorization: "Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category. A list might be a better option." Sciurinæ 22:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy tag

And an accuracy tag because the article is deliberately incomplete and incorrect and thus seeks to mislead people about the issues relevant to the life and reputation of Copernicus. When I last saw this article - a long time ago because I have no interest in this topic - as I remember things the article seemed complete and informative, and it needs to be returned to that state. But I can't do that myself because I don't have any expertise on the topic. CalJW 00:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

If you have any specific concerns about accuracy, please don't hesitate to point them out. Omitting the assertion of nationality is not misleading at all. Quite the opposite, the assertion of nationality is misleading people about the issues relevant to the life and reputation of Copernicus. I've partly compared the state of the article in the version of one year ago and the difference is relatively small. Since you admit that you didn't have "any expertise on the topic" and because the article certainly isn't "deliberately incomplete and incorrect", I've also removed that tag. Sciurinæ 22:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Wimiwimi 19:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)NEVER KNEW THAT HIS NAME WAS... wat u just saidWimiwimi 19:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

You don't have any expertise on the topic, and no interest, but claim that the article is "deliberately incomplete" and "seeks to mislead people"? And you "remember" it having been "complete and informative" "a long time ago". I'd say these statements of yours deserve to be tagged for POV and lack of accuracy. -- Matthead discuß!     O       02:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "The astronomer who formulated..."

The current version of the opener is:

Nicolaus Copernicus (February 19, 1473 – May 24, 1543) was the astronomer who formulated the first modern heliocentric theory of the solar system.

That may be a little too Eurocentric. Perhaps the following more modest statement would put the work in the context of the development of European science:

Nicolaus Copernicus (February 19, 1473 – May 24, 1543) was the first European astronomer to formulate a modern heliocentric theory of the solar system.

I don't have any specific examples of non-European thoughts on helicentricism, but in the absence of an exhaustive trawl I'd prefer to remain conservative in the claim. --Tony Sidaway 17:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nationality according to Britannica and Encarta

Both Britannica and Encarta are major encyclopaedias and both classify Copernicus as a Polish astronomer. Now, why do you (Jadger) ask for citation [4] supporting this sentence: "Today he is often classified as Polish". Are you aware of any major encyclopedia (other than our wikipedia here) that does not classify him as a Pole ? --Lysytalk 19:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

the article does not say anything about encyclopedias for the sentence in question. The sentence in question is in fact created by weasel words. to state the sentence in question: Today he is often classified as Polish, in part based on the location of his birthplace in then and present-day Poland, though not only limited to that.
now, "often classified"? often classified by who? you say encyclopedias, but that's not what that sentence states. also, "often classified", how much is "often"? because one can easily say that he is "often" classified as German as "often" is a variable dependent on each person's views of what "often means". For instance, I often fill my car up with gas, but I also often use the bathroom, does that mean that I do both those the same amount of times? of course not. In order to verify that he is often classified as Polish, we need a hell of a lot of sources that all corroborate the same thing.
--Jadger 19:57, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Would "most often" be more precise then ? --Lysytalk 20:04, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
not really, because you would have to make a catalogue of all books that state something on his nationality, and tally up the ones that say he is of each nationality, and then you could say "most often _____" as that is clearly majority rules. you will either have to find more sources to back up your claim, or change the sentence to "Britannica and Encarta both state Copernicus is Polish". but that is hardly encyclopedic, as encyclopedias should rely on their rivals for information.
--Jadger 20:16, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I've re-read the sentence in question again, and to my non-native understanding of English, the "often" clearly refers to the second part of the sentence. I'll try to rephrase to make it clearer. --Lysytalk 20:25, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please add the link to the Ido Wikipedia

io:Nikolaus Kopernicus - Thank you,João Xavier, from Ido Wikipedia 23:02, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Done. --Flex (talk|contribs) 14:32, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes

The third of the paragraphs attributed to Copernicus is not by him. It is from the Foreword to De Revolutionibus by Andreas Osiander, and it's claim that the task of astronomy is merely to "save the appearances" is famously at odds with the pains taken by Copernicus to argue that the Earth really does move (e.g., in the second quoted paragraph). Please can someone correct this mis-attribution?

It would be useful to be specify the source of the other quoted paragraphs (otherwise they might be read as one extract). The first is from Copernicus' preface. It is also a bit misleading, as it might appear that C is about to deny that he is trying to do anything so "insane". (Actually the thrust of the rest of Preface is "but truth will out and history will vindicate me").

The second quoted paragraph is from De Revolutionibus Book 1, Chapter 8.

PaddyLeahy 17:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Apparently I've been around long enough to do it myself. I just deleted the Osiander quote; it doesn't seem appropriate in a list of quotes celebrating Dr C. Sometime I'll come back and add something authentic by C. to compensate, e.g. his praise of the Sun.

PaddyLeahy 07:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

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