Talk:Nick Baker (prisoner in Japan)

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[edit] Baker-Devlin Spat Proposal

Before

In November 2004, after Devlin had emailed a 30-page document entitled "The Nick Baker Deception" to other media and supporters, Iris Baker called him a spammer and claimed he had harvested emails from the support site.[20] Since she claimed Devlin had said she had "suppressed information"; "deceived the media and the public" and made "anti-Japanese statements" she also invited him to make these claims whilst in the UK so that she could proceed with a libel action. Devlin said Iris Baker's claims were "a ludicrous diversion from the inconsistencies in the case".[21] To date no libel suit has been filed.

After?

In November 2004, after Devlin emailed a 30-page document entitled "The Nick Baker Deception" to media following the case, Iris Baker accused him of being a spammer and of harvesting emails from the support site. She also indicated her intention to sue him for libel. [20] Devlin said her claims were "a ludicrous diversion from the inconsistencies in the case". [21] Sparkzilla 10:01, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Could you move this over to medcab, where there is a space for compromise suggestions, please? David Lyons 10:29, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I am not interested in mediation. Please respond here. Sparkzilla 14:24, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Then why have you responded several times on the mediation page and also tried to accuse me of bad faith on the NPOV talk page? David Lyons 16:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of pages from Internet Archive

Before contemplating the removal of sources from the Internet Archive (notably the appeal defence pdf), it should be considered that the only person authorised to remove pages from the Internet archive is the site owner who, according to the whois record, is Iris Baker [1]

Removing the appeal defence pdf pages from J4NB proves that members of the support group are involved in a cover-up. If the same pages are removed from the Internet archive it will provide clear evidence of Iris Baker's involvement. Sparkzilla 14:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation request

Is this case still active or can I close it? --Ideogram 13:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I understand that Medcab requires both parties to agree to mediation. Since Sparkzilla refuses, as far as I am concerned, it is closed. David Lyons 13:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Closing. --Ideogram 13:46, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed user talk page discussion

Removed a CoI discussion originally held on my talk page and wholesale copy & pasted here by Sparkzilla. It gave the impression it was originally discussed here, was out of context and further, contains material not compatible with an article talk page. Removed material. I have added a further explanation to Sparkzilla's talk page. David Lyons 05:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

This information does not belong to you, and you cannot remove it. It is germane to the discussion of your CoI regarding Nick Baker, and to the discussion of Baker in general. Just keep reminding yourself - is this really what I want to be doing with your time? Sparkzilla 06:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm wondering why you want to hide this information so much. You deleted it both from your own talk page, and are trying to delete it here. The truth is that you are down to arguing about ONE sentence in this article, but you simply can't stop fighting because your life is so sad that you can't stop. Sparkzilla 06:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
"...but you simply can't stop fighting because your life is so sad that you can't stop" is an example of what shouldn't appear on this talk page. Originally, at the beginning of this section, few lines above here, I put a link to the material - that doesn't seem like the action of someone trying to hide information. I will add here what I put on Sparkzilla's talk page as further explanation:

Sparkzilla, In future, if you wish to ref whole discussions - link to them, that way it is clear to all where and in which context it was held. For example, in this case the original discussion started under the title "You requested mediation" on my user talk page and ended up as "Conflict of Interest"on Nick Baker's page. Please also bear in mind that material that might appear on a user talk page may contain material incompatible with an article talk page. As a reminder:

  • The purpose of a Wikipedia talk page is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page. Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views.
  • Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article.
  • No personal attacks. A personal attack is saying something negative about another person.
Bearing that in mind, please feel free to join in for some constructive discussion. Thank you.

Thanks. David Lyons 06:34, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

So here you are arguing about arguing - kind of proves my point don't you think. You obviously have NOTHING better to do in your life than come here and try to get some attention from me. You remind me of that quote by Winston Churchill: A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. The sad thing is that you still think that somehow there's a way you can win. You can't. You lost a long, long time ago. It's over -- get a life. Sparkzilla 06:45, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I am keeping copies of this specific user's correspondence, Sparkzilla. He/she/it makes quite a few claims alleging abuse by other users here on WP and obviously is of the opinion that he/it/she is immune to the same rules of civility. The great thing is, eventually this person will lead WP into a libel suit because he/she/it is occasionally accusing others of breaking real laws--made through real treaties by real legislative bodies--that are subject to real penalties. WP has been informed of this recklessness and that records are being kept. And I am making a record of it all. Malangthon 14:17, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question re notability

I wouldn't go so far as to question the notability of the subject, but the phrase " Baker's story was reported on to some extent by western media, but almost completely ignored by Japanese-language media" does lead one to query this. Also, wouldn't a better title be "Nick Baker (Japanese prisoner)"? -- PageantUpdater • talk | contribs | esperanza 11:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you should judge the subject of an article's notability by the intro, but by what the rest of the article reports. One of the "notable" facets of this subject is that, although Baker's story has been reported on by several major media outlets in the west, the Japanese press has ignored it. This in and of itself is notable because it begs the question of why this would be so, and if it is part of a larger pattern. Cla68 12:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I too have a problem with the current title "prisoner in Japan". It is not very future proof, since he is presumably not going to be a prisoner forever. "Japanese prisoner" is equally problematic as it suggests Baker's nationality could be Japanese. How about Nick Baker (convicted in Japan) or, Nick Baker (imprisoned in Japan)? David Lyons 16:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
We have tried several revisions of the title in the past and "prisoner in Japan" seems the most simple and basic description that disambiguates this Baker from others and points to his notability. "Japanese prisoner" doesn't work because he's not Japanese.
Regarding future-proofness: When he is released he will still be notable as having been a prisoner in Japan, unless he makes some bigger news in some way. Even if Michael Jackson retired, he would still have been known as an entertainer. Even then he would be Michael Jackson (entertainer) compared with Michael Jackson (English actor). See Michael Jackson (disambiguation).
"Convicted in Japan" and "imprisoned in Japan" are also problematic for disambiguation. If we write "Nick Baker (imprisoned in Japan) it might lead people to think that it applied to a time when the other Nick Baker was imprisoned Japan. "Prisoner in Japan" relates to Baker himself, not to actions that have been taken against him. It begs the question of who imprisoned him, who convicted him, which could be seen as NPOV. It's better, and probably policy, to use passive voice in titles. Perhaps someone could find the relevant guideline and ask to ask there...Sparkzilla 00:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I think Sparkzilla makes sense with his reasoning for the current title. "Nick Baker (convicted drug smuggler)" is probably a little too POV. Cla68 08:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Or just (prisoner)?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Weggie (talk • contribs) 09:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC).
Why don't we move the other Nick Baker article to: "Nick Baker (naturalist)" and make this one the straight "Nick Baker" article? Cla68 04:01, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
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