Template talk:New South Wales cities

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The discussion from the Australian Wikipedians' notice board regarding the creation of this template is included within the speech marks below. Blarneytherinosaur 07:11, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] New South Wales Cities box

I've been pottering away on making a New South Wales cities template in my sandbox. I got the idea from the {{Victorian Cities}} template. I figure, if the Victorian's can have one, why not NSW? Does anyone have any suggestions, eg. cities I have missed?

Also should we be making other templates like this for the other states as well?

Blarneytherinosaur 08:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Gralee?
Not a bad idea at all, but we need a precise definition of what fits in here, or it's going to fill up in no time, with places like Gralee. - Randwicked Alex B 08:57, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Gralee, Whoops! I meant to remove that one.
I suggest we include those places that have been declared to be cities, as defined at Local Government Areas of New South Wales. I went through the list there and collected as many cities as I could find, so I think they should all be there, but someone might notice if one is missing.
There are a few quirks, like Taree being the centre of Greater Taree City Council and, I believe, therefore a city, but Port Macquarie only being within a Municipality and therefore not a city, although it is larger. I don't know if we should have an exception for cases like that, or just stick with the official definition.
Also I would exclude those "cities" that are within the Sydney metropolitan area, which are already listed under "Local Government Areas of Sydney" in the Sydney regions template. (The Victorian cities template doesn't have the "cities" within Melbourne, and I think this is a good idea.)
Blarneytherinosaur 09:35, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Defining whether a place can be a city or not based on its Council area is flawed, take for instance Tamworth Regional or Bathurst Regional Councils, both are centred around the major centres of Tamworth & Bathurst that in their own right would qualify to be called a city. Isnt there an official definition (by the NSW Goverment) that determines what is classed as a city or not? --59.167.7.100 03:42, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
The dictionary of the Local Government Act 1993 [1] defines a city as following:
“city means an area constituted as a city under Division 1 of Part 1 of Chapter 9.”
The Local Government Act 1993 No 30 Chapter 9 Part 1, Division 1, 204 Constitution of areas states that:
"(1) The Governor may, by proclamation, constitute any part of New South Wales as an area."
[And in 206 Constitution of cities]
"The Governor may, by proclamation, constitute an area as a city."
I believe that according to the Government of New South Wales unless a place has been proclaimed a city it is not a city, no matter how large its population is. Therefore I propose that this template should only contain those places in New South Wales that have been proclaimed a city and that are not within the Sydney metropolitan area (because they are already included in the Sydney regions template).
I shall now move the template out of my sandbox and add it to all those cities listed in it.
Blarneytherinosaur 06:34, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

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The problem with this template is that the list seems to be completely arbitrary. Although the above seems to claim that it was based on the article Local Government Areas of New South Wales, this article is not in any way a list of those places that have been proclaimed cities in the history of New South Wales. It's simply a list of the current status of LGAs. At any rate, if it was based on the current LGA status both Armidale and Goulburn would have to be removed - neither is currently an official 'city'. Until such time as an accurate list of proclaimed cities can be compiled, common sense should prevail and places such as Bathurst, Griffith and Tamworth that are known to be cities should be added to the list, and Hawkesbury should be removed for being within the Sydney metropolitan area. 203.217.44.25 19:44, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I have had a look at the Department of Local Government website and using the clickable regions map, compiled this list of official cities by region.

:Richmond Tweed

  • Lismore City Council
Mid North Coast
  • Coffs Harbour City Council
  • Greater Taree City Council
Hunter
  • Cessnock City Council
  • Lake Macquarie City Council
  • Maitland City Council
*Newcastle City Council
Sydney surrounds
  • Blue Mountains City Council
  • Gosford City Council
  • Hawkesbury City Council
Illawarra
  • Shellharbour City Council
  • Shoalhaven City Council
  • Wollongong City Council
South Eastern
  • Queanbeyan City Council
Murray
  • Albury City Council
Murrumbidgee
  • Griffith City Council
  • Wagga Wagga City Council
Central West
  • City of Lithgow Council
  • Orange City Council
North Western
  • Dubbo City Council
Far West
  • Broken Hill City Council

:These are the official cities according to the Department of Local Government. I propose that this should be the cities included in the New South Wales cities template.

:(I have included the cities in the Sydney surrounds region, because they do not currently appear on the Sydney regions template. If we decide not to include them here, we'll just need to convince the people who maintain the Sydney regions templalte that they should be included there.)

: Alternately, we could change the template so that it shows two groups, those places that are official cities, and those that are "major population centres" with a specific population criteria for inclusion in the latter.

Blarneytherinosaur 02:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I have just revised the template so that only cities are listed in the cities setion, but I have created a major population centres section for those local government areas with a population over 20,000 people only. Blarneytherinosaur 11:50, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can ascertain those LGAs in NSW that are not cities that have a population over 20,000 are:

  • Armidale 22k
  • Ballina, New South Wales 37k
  • Bathurst, New South Wales 37k
  • Byron bay 30k
  • Clarence Valley, New South Wales 53k
  • Eurobodalla Shire 34k
  • Goulburn Mulwaree Council 27k
  • Great Lakes Council, New South Wales 34k
  • Kempsey 27k approx
  • Mid-Western Regional Council, New South Wales 22k
  • Port Stephens Council, New South Wales 63k
  • Port Macquarie-Hastings, New South Wales 69k
  • Richmond Valley 21k
  • Singleton, New South Wales 22k approx
  • Tamworth 50k approx
  • Tweed Heads 79910

Blarneytherinosaur 11:53, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I also moved Grafton from "cities" to "Major population centres" because it is not a city, but does have a population of 49422. Blarneytherinosaur 12:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with using Local Government areas to define this list into the categories used - reform in local government reciently has changed the way that councils in the future will be structured. Cities like Tamworth have been declared cities previously (http://www.tamworth.nsw.gov.au/asp/index.asp?pgid=9281&cid=48883&id=71866) but because they now fall in a 'Regional Council' they are not shown as a city, rather a major population centre. --bacco007 12:39, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The reason I had been using the Local Government areas was that it was the easiest way to find out whether a place had been proclaimed a city or not. As far as I am concerned, if someone can prove that a place has been proclaimed a city, it should be in the "Cities" section. I will move Tamworth there now. If anyone knows of any other places that have been proclaimed a city but are not on this list, please add them and provide a source on this page. Blarneytherinosaur 01:27, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

This may be of assistance - http://www.gnb.nsw.gov.au/name/results?first=1&placename=&status=None&designation=CITY&lga=None&map=&parish= - the GNB is one of the official registers of naming in NSW bacco007 09:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Brilliant resource, bacco007. I'll peruse it and see if there are any more changes we need to make. Thanks. Blarneytherinosaur 04:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I've gone through the search results from the Geographical Names Board of New South Wales that bacco007 posted here yesterday. Here is the list places in New South Wales, outside of Sydney, that have been proclaimed a city:

I will merge this list with that from the Department of Local Government and the hybrid list will become our "cities" list. I believe that most of the major centres will be included in this list, and therefore we can get rid of the "Major population centres" section of this template. Any objections? Blarneytherinosaur 04:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] City proclamations

Under a proclamation by Governor Loftus, on 20 March 1885, the following settlements were proclaimed/confirmed as cities, under the authority of the Crown Lands Act 1884 (48 Vict. No.18):

Armidale, Bathurst, Goulburn, Grafton, Newcastle, Sydney.

Irrespective of any considerations as to population, economy, or other factors, these places were all legally proclaimed cities as of that date, if they had not already been. In the case of Sydney, it was proclaimed a city on 20 July 1842 under the Sydney Corporation Act (6 Vict. No.3). Goulburn was claimed to have been proclaimed a city by virtue of Royal Letters Patent issued by Queen Victoria in 1863, however the legal validity of this document (and all others like it) was thoroughly discredited through several legal cases before and after, so it can be regarded as an unofficial proclamation at the very best. Regardless, all the named settlements were certainly cities in every legal sense with effect from 20 March 1885.

In the same proclamation, the status of all other towns and villages in NSW was also proclaimed/affirmed, and so it would probably be in your interest to obtain a copy of the proclamation for your own records, perhaps? It was published in volume 1 of the NSW Government Gazette, 1885. The State Library will have a copy, or possibly your local historical society if you are lucky.

Penguin75 13:57, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I have relied on the Geographical Names Board of New South Wales, a state government body, for a list of proclaimed cities. Their website states that they are "the official body for naming and recording details of places and geographical names in New South Wales." I will bear your suggestion in mind in the case of any inconsistencies in their list. Blarneytherinosaur talk 07:24, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] See Talk:List of cities in Australia#What is included in this list?

This discussion is relevant to all cities in Australia and this template should be consistent with the list contained in that article. I am going to change the template to reflect the list, and I suggest that future discussion should take place on that article's talkpage, not here.GSTQ 23:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Noted. I'll direct any further discussion there. Blarneytherinosaur talk 00:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
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