Talk:Newroz as celebrated by Kurds

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Contents

[edit] This article has serious factual problems

First of all the 'reference' used [1] does not even mention this as a Kurdish festival.

Exactly, my point of using this reference, which is an official Turkish site, is to point out that Turkey now officially considers "Nevruz" as a Turkish holiday.Bertilvidet 16:16, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
information in this article is not neutral.

Now I am sensible enough to let you guys bring about a reference to justify the existance of this article, as clearly it should only be a section in Norouz. Until then, I am going to put a dispute tag --Kash 15:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

"Newroz" is one of many local prononciation varieties of Norouz the ancinet Persian New Year which is also celebrated by Kurds, Central Asian Turks, Azeris, Tajiks, Pashtuns and Bahai faith. As before, this article should be redirected to Norouz to avoid confusion. --ManiF 15:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


I appreciate this but please atleast put a reference to where you are getting your information about the festival from. I am sure it exists but not as it is described here --Kash 15:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I myself first began the article from that article but bothe Newroz and Nauroz, (nauruz , noroz...) have their own article. ~This article is the Kurdish version. Yours is the Persian one. Still there are many other different versions. Since both have their own material, there is no need for redirection. Diyako Talk + 15:37, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I once before mentioned that the Persian Nuruz(na...) is full of mistake and POV and uncited stuff. The Kurdish Newroz article is a wel-cited article. The admins will look at the article and will find that there is nothing wrong with it. Diyako Talk + 15:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
If so, then mention the sources at the bottom of the page under the heading "References" --Kash 15:48, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The are already seven eiight references in the article even in the front of the paragraphs which is more accurate than just in the reference section, but if this can help you I do it.Diyako Talk + 15:52, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Newroz and Norouz are not different, It's the same Festival with different pronunciations. This article should redirected to Norouz to avoid confusion. --ManiF 15:42, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
As you see they are totally different. Diyako Talk + 15:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
It is not. It's the same Festival. Your "source" is a Kurdish web-page. Newroz page was redirected to Norouz, before you decided that Newroz is a new festival. --ManiF 15:55, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

You mention this as a source: [2]

This is what? a film review? You can't use this as a source on an encylopedia, not as a reference to a historical event atleast! --Kash 15:50, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Before any discussion or tag abusing read here. I repeat the Persian version is full of mistake. Diyako Talk + 15:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

First of all, if you have any problems with the Persian one, discuss it in that talk page.

Secondly even that source mentions "Turkey has appropriated this 3000 year-old Kurdish/Iranian/Persian/Zoroastrian NEWROZ festival"

That sounds like they are the same things to me? --Kash 15:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Not exactly the same, They all have their own traditions thus there are different pages for them. Diyako Talk + 16:02, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
If they are the same thing but there are different ways of celebrating them then maybe they should be merged.

This event is coming up tomorrow, it's best to make one good article instead of having several different ones, with no references and full of mistakes --Kash 16:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Total dispute?

It seems that any articles mentioning anything about Kurdishness gets the totally disuted tag. Maybe you should create a tag for this, warning that some find mentioning of Kurdishness offensive. Until then please point out the concrete passages in the text that should be POV or incorrect. Bertilvidet 16:11, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Although there is no question that Kurds celebrate Norouz, the problem is that yesturday this article did not exist, it was part of Norouz, now all of a sudden its a new festival!? So for this, please put on some sources to back it up. --Kash 16:16, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Creating an article about sth. is not the same as creating what the article is about. "yesturday this article did not exist" is not a problem. --Fasten 18:00, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The historical part lacks sources, that is right - and that section is tagged. Where else is the problem? And you tag it as totally disputed...so please give us the arguments for lack of both NPOV and factual accuracy. Bertilvidet 16:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
See you talk --Kash 16:26, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Raison d'être of this article

As far as I understand, the main dispute actually is whether this article has its own raison d'être. I proposed on the norouz talk page that we create a proper article for the Kurdish version of Newroz. My argument for this is, that Newroz is a very important event for Kurds as a manifestation of their identity...My knowledge is solely about the current political significance about Newroz as a celebration of Kurdish identity. I guess the history is the same, and I dont know if the current ways of celebrating it are the same among Kurds as among Persians. It would be OK for me if this article solely deals with political implications of the Kurdish celebrations of Newroz - in the case that the history, traditions and rites are the same. Bertilvidet 16:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


If Norouz has political significance for Kurds, it can be mentioned in the Kurdistan page or the Kurdish people page or if we have a page related to Kurdish politics or even briefly in the Norouz article itself. Having separate articles creates the misunderstanding that Kurdish version is different while it is in fact identical. It is simply repeating the same stuff. One paragraph in the main page Norouz is enough to describe all the MINOR differences that exist. Their version is not just a different way of celebrating the beginning of spring, as some editors like to argue, it is the same IRANIAN way that includes Persians, Lurs, Balouch…etc as well. The differences are as much as the differences in style of one Iranian city to the next.

Gol 09:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

This is rather silly, I would go with Norouz and the Kurds as an article. But to get another transliteration of the same concept and try to sell it as a distinct entry is just a no go for me. Kaveh 09:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stop the destruction

Would people please stop deleting this article. If you dont like the content, participate in the talk. Bertilvidet 16:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page protection

I've protected this following a request, but we don't as a rule like to protect articles with the current-event tag on them, so could someone give me a quick rundown of the dispute, and how many people are involved on each side? SlimVirgin (talk) 16:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

There is a spring festival with different traditions among several western and central Asian peoples. This article is on the Kurdish version of the festival. Some people claim that this article should be merged into the Iranian article. But in fact there is no need for that. The Kurdish new year festival deserves its own article. Diyako Talk + 16:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for protecting the page. Hopefully this will give us more incentive to reach a compromise. Most of the debate is conducted at Talk:Norouz. As far as I understand the people deleting the article / redirecting it to Norouz, the question is whether the Kurdish celebration deserves its own article. On both sides some people have shown willingness to reach a compromise. As a compromise I suggest that we rename this article to "Kurdish Newroz celebration", as I believe it deserves an article, mainly on the grounds that the festival is an important manifestation of Kurdish identity - and keep a comprehensive Newroz/Norouz article that deals with the history og Newroz and the different way it is celebrated. Bertilvidet 17:02, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we already resolved this, restore/move Norouz and the Kurds and redirect this back to the main article. Kaveh 17:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
There is a 'Kurdish new year' and has a 'celebration'. This 'celebration' which is called 'Newroz' needs its own article. There is no need for merging.Diyako Talk + 18:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Norooz is an Iranian festival or Iranian new year festival. I have provided academic sources for that in Norooz page. Even in Kurdish pages, it should be mentioned that this is an Iranian festival. There is NO academic source that states that Newroz is a Kurdish festival. Diyako! We need academic sources (not a kurdish forum or webpage made by separaists or political activists.) in wikipedia. --Sina Kardar18:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

First your source does not claim Norouz is Iranian or at least merely Iranian, your third source is biased and is not a neutral one. I have discussed it before. for eample look at its biased slogan in the right corner above the page that says if there is no iran I'll die!! or that petition against oppressed azeri people In Iran. Secondly, My sources are not Kurdish although there are many Kurdish ones but I only have provided source from non-Kurdish sources or at least articles which are written by non-Kurdish people and I still can provide more. Third, As I said there is a Kurdish New year [3] and Newroz is its celebration and deseves it own article. Diyako Talk + 18:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


Sina, I would like to invite you to Turkey in order to assist a Newroz celebration here. You will see that millions of Kurds use this opportunity to reclaim cultural rights and to display pride. If you see that - or read some articles about it - you will realize that contemporary Newroz celebration is much more than an Iranian event. Bertilvidet 18:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

To discuss the background of Norouz is besides the point. The fact is that Diyako has created a new article out of a redirect page for the same concept (but a different transliteration). Start any article that doesn't entail this ambiguity and we will discuss its merits there. For now this page should be restored and redirect to our main previously accepted entry. If you want to rename that entry gain consensus there. If you want an article in relation to a specific population, pick a clear title. Kaveh 19:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


There was a wrong redirection and I started a new article which directly discuss the matter, it is not sin! About several weeks ago there was a redirection from 'Kurdish terroristic propaganda' to 'Kurdish music' article by user Khoikhoi whicgh I made the wrong redirection deleted by an admin. Afghanistan, Iran and Tajikstan all are Persian-speaking while Kurds are Kurdish-speaking, They have their own name for their festival. No need for Persian names. Diyako Talk + 19:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Norouz is not a Persian name, نوروز is and Newrouz, Norouz, Norooz and all others are merely transliterations of the same word! You seem a bit caught up in pronunciations, I must say I am startled. User:SlimVirgin, please restore the redirect and allow the user to justify his changes before any further alteration to the previously accepted naming convention. Kaveh 19:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes I know that exactly, but here the Newroz is the Kurdish common title for the Kurdish celebration of spring. Diyako Talk + 19:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. The title for such articles must follow a a well defined style like: "Norooz in Kurdistan" or "Norooz in Tajikistan" or "Norooz in Turkey" ...Read my comments in Norooz Talk page. --Sina Kardar 19:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
And this is the English Wikipedia and you have taken over a redirect for Norouz. Create an unambiguous entry for what you feel warrants an independent entry. We will discuss the merits of your arguments there. Kaveh 19:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

And all sources provided by me are English not Kurdish. Diyako Talk + 21:09, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Here is an article from Turkey clearly indicating that the Kurds all celebrate an Iranian festival. http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/4112557.asp?gid=74 69.196.139.250 21:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Hürriyet is a 'Turkish' newspaper! Diyako Talk + 21:05, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Interesting what another Turkish newspaper writes: http://www.zaman.com/?bl=national&alt=&trh=20060317&hn=31004 Bertilvidet 21:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean ? Turks are Iranian or Persian POV ??!!!! Hey guys! we do not need these sources. We have enough academic source at the end of the page Norooz. No doubt that this is an Iranian festival. --Sina Kardar21:09, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not going to interfere whether Norouz is Iranian or Akkadian or whatever. But I'm discussing that Newroz is the Kurdish celebration of spring, Don't agree? then ask admins for mediation. Diyako Talk + 21:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I have provided several academic sources. You might not care whether it is Iranian or not. Your personal view has no value here. I provided several academic sources but you were not able to provide even one. You are not expert and your personal view does not count. --User:Sina Kardar21:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

You sources are not better than mine which directly discuss the Kurdish new year. Diyako Talk + 21:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

My sources were academic (encyclopedia iranicca and center for iranian studies at univ london). You have NOT provided any ACADEMIC source yet. --User:Sina Kardar21:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Norouz is all the same festival Diyako and all the sources support this. The only Kurds that claim it is different are just seperatists, right? I mean even the pictures used on the article you have made up is all from a political party demonstration, admitted the photographer himself. --Kash 21:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
The contemporary celebration is not all the same. The Newroz celebrations in Turkey are highly politisezed. The photographer himself aka Bertilvidet 21:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I prefer a mediation and discuss the matter with admins rather than Iranian users. Diyako Talk + 21:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Whatever is the nationality of our co-editors is indeed irrelevant!!! Bertilvidet 21:30, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Because many Iranians are so proud that claim that Kurds are wild and have no culture no history nothing, but Iranian culture!! Iranians educated them, Iranian made Kurds to be human. They cannot be neutral. Diyako Talk + 21:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Please discuss the issue rather than your prejudicies! Kash has not expressed such views in this debate! Bertilvidet 21:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately this is your personal preoccupation. Not only Iranians but also persians do not think like this about Kurds. Provide a source that says "Iranians believe that they educated Kurds". or a source made by Iranians indicating that Kurds are non Iranian. --User:Sina Kardar21:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Calling Kurds as well as their culture and tradition to be Iranian is another insult made by Iranian and many other people. Diyako Talk + 21:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
OK ! If being Iranian is insult, I now delete my insult!!!!! Now you should provide basis for your claims and insults. --User:Sina Kardar21:45, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Please discuss the issue rather than determining others' nationality Bertilvidet 21:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC).

The only choice is mediation. Or renaming the Kurdish article as bertilvidet said, Kurdish celebration of Newroz. Diyako Talk + 21:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

This is getting quite trite. I do not wish to participate in this discussion anymore, a waste of time. Kaveh 21:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Please all of you friends forgive that That I discussed the matter of Iranians and Kurds. It does not belong to wikipedia or at least to this article. I was tired but It was my 'bad' .Diyako Talk + 22:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Compromise?

The only choice is mediation. Or renaming the Kurdish article as bertilvidet said, Kurdish celebration of Newroz. Diyako Talk + 21:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree. We should agree on a consistent style for all sister pages. What title do people suggest for a page on Norooz celebrations in Lurestan ? What is going to be the title for the page on Norouz celebrations in Tajikistan ?? Here is a bbc report of Norouz of Tajikistan [4]. You see there are many interesting things in it and it needs a title. --User:Sina Kardar 21:56, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


This people who you are refering to all are Persian or conseiderd as Persian-speaking., Kurds speak another language and have a different but common name for the spring festival. This name is common and 'widely used' in English than any other word for Kurdish celebration. Kurds celebrate a Newroz festival this is all. Diyako Talk + 22:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
It is not true. There are many non-persian speaking areas like azerbaijan. It is strange that you are saying that Lors are persian or persian speaking !!!! Very good sign !! Please read this academic source. [5] --User:Sina Kardar22:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I myself do not consider lors as perrsians, but their culture is heavily influenced by Persian. Diyako Talk + 22:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with using the word Newroz in the body of the article (not its title). The title of all sister pages should follow the same trend and also consistent with the mother page. --User:Sina Kardar22:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear Sina Kardar, What title u suggest? Diyako Talk + 22:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

My suggestions is the following:

If the title of the mother page is going to be Norouz then: I suggest Norouz Celebrations in Kurdistan (Newroz) and the same trend for other places : Norouz Celebrations in Tajikistan, Norouz Celebrations in Azerbaijan etc. It depends also on other peoples votes. --User:Sina Kardar22:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

But the point is that the Kurdish celebrations are not only in Kurdistan. 200.000 participated in Istanbul yesterday, and throughout Europe, among the diaspora, there are many events. I am convinced that the contemporary Kurdish celebrations - highly politisized - differ a lot from the Iranian celebrations. Bertilvidet 22:50, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
About Lors: yes it is true. Because here it is in favor of you, they become Persian. and on Persian language page they suddenly become non-persian. I really like your style! --User:Sina Kardar22:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I am against the use of 'Kurdistan' in to this, as far as I know Iranian and Iraqi Kurds don't celebrate it different to Iranians (I had a long discussion about it with my Kurd friends) --Kash 22:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Dear Kash, I was not aware of the difference. What do you think about my new suggestion ?--User:Sina Kardar22:58, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Dear Bertilvidet, we can also think about "Norouz celebrations among Kurds (Newroz)" as an alternative. Please notice that when you search for let's say "Iranian culture" you will be reverted to "Culture of Iran". It does not mean that those few milion Iranians out of Iran do not share Iranian culture. --User:Sina Kardar22:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
It may be also OK to use Kurdish Celebrations of Norouz. The word Norouz must be there to make it consistent with the mother page.--User:Sina Kardar23:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


The word Kurdistan will be disputde by many users (from middle east) who see it offensive! also it does not include all Kurdish people. Many Kurds live outside Kurdistan. The word Norouz has no meaning for Kurds. My suggestion is to remove any refering to this problematic word of N****z... and Instead agree on Spring celebration among Kurds or Kurdish spring celebration or Kurdish spring festival... But I should see what is others opinion esp Bertilvidet who I accept him as a quite neutral person. Diyako Talk + 23:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know Kurds do not speak in English. There exist a main article. All sister articles must be consistent with it. --Sina Kardar23:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Immediately I do not agree with the logic that - in this case - the articles necesarily should have the same name. The Kurdish celebration is known as Newroz (when referred to in English and in the Kurdish written with Latin alphabet) - but on the other hand if this is the issue that divides us I will not insist. Bertilvidet 23:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

How you mean?Diyako Talk + 23:19, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
"The word Norouz has no meaning for Kurds." Was that meant to be a joke?! I have many Kurd friends who actually call it Norouz, they actually have a problem with 'Newroz' mentioned here. They say its used in a political context where it means 'uprising' --Kash 23:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Kash may I ask you leave this argument that you have Kurdish friends that think so or don't think so?! Diyako Talk + 23:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Kash. "Norouz" is also used in Kurdish media. I have already provided references for that.--User:Sina Kardar23:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

But it is not common and widely used among Kurds. Both in English and Kurdish the accepted term is Newroz, and you have not the right to change the Kurdish related facts...Diyako Talk + 23:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Time out. I agree with Sina that the debate is getting trite. We are only the same four people, and from both sides there have been severel unbecoming comments. I will withdraw for the night, and hope some people will come fresh to problem. Shab bekheir / Sew bas Bertilvidet 23:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I am also TIME OUT! Good night. Count the people in the world you hate, then you would know how much you are far from humanity. --User:Sina Kardar23:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
First - Diyako your claim is almost insane. 40% if not more of Kurds live in Iran and speak Persian as first or second language. Whole of Iran know exactly what Norouz is as its their public holiday and the word is Persian so they would know exactly what it means. That should already be enough to discredit your "The word Norouz has no meanings for Kurds" argument.

Time out indeed. --Kash 23:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

20%, and they are Kurds nothing alse, for assimilation of Kurds by Iranians and resistance of Kurds see Britannica. The only name for Kurdish celebration of spring both in English and Kurish is Newroz nothing else, don't agree? ask for mediation. Diyako Talk + 23:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
You seem to be the only one who doesn't agree. Read my comments above and think about. if you don't agree with anything, go a head for mediation. --Kash 00:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I just stumbled onto this page. I think this page should be merged into Norouz. If not that, then create Kurdish celebration of Newroz, and make it a {{main}} under a subsection on the Norouz page. This seems like a necessary and obvious answer. Despite the different transliterations and pronunciations, it's the same festival.

If this page exists, then others could likewise make Noe-Rooz, Norooz, Noruz, Novruz, Noh Ruz, Nauroz, Nav-roze, Navroz, Naw-Rúz, Nevruz or Nowrouz, since they all, along with Newroz, are different transliterations of the same word. Cuñado - Talk 02:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Follow up: I just realized that someone made Norouz and the Kurds. That's just as good as 'Kurdish celebration of Newroz', and serves the same purpose. Cuñado - Talk 02:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible version for Norouz

I've updated the Norouz article, but in my user space, so no one gets mad. It's currently at User:Jeff3000/Norouz. Please take a look and comment, and make changes on that page. If enough people think it's ok, we can move it back to the Norouz page. It includes part of this page, and then links to it. -- Jeff3000 05:48, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Support I back you 100% and want to thank you for making the proposal on your user page and for keeping the cool in the heated cross fire!

This particular debate seems to be conducted at Talk:Norouz#Possible_version_for_Norouz Bertilvidet 10:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Newroz as separate from Norouz

Newroz/Norouz has been celebrated for 3000 years. It is "deeply rooted" in the traditions of Zoroastrianism. It LONG outdates the Persians, those living in modern Iran, and the Norouz article makes it seem as though it is an exclusively Persian celebration, that is celebrated by other countries and populations only because they were once part of the Persian Empire. This is why Newroz and Norouz should stay separate. Newroz or Norouz is as much a Kurdish celebration as it is a Persian one, as the Kurds and the Persians and all other populations who traditionally have celebrated have some ancestral or religious commonality.

It is NOT exclusively Persian, contrary to what the Norouz article leads those who read it to believe. That article's history of Norouz section is primarily Persian, and Norouz in Modern Iran... nuff said.

And your pathetic, "academic" sources... please. Just because someone holds some sort of degree in history of the Persian Empire, does not mean they know everything remotely related to it -such as Newroz/Norouz.


Hey guys, we had an extensive discussions yesterday on this issue. It seems that Diyako is just editing and editing without paying attention to other people's sources and comments. No body agreed on this title: "Kurdish Celebrations of Newroz". The article must be deleted or renamed to "Norouz among Kurds" or "Norouz Celebrations among Kurds (Newroz)". The name of the mother article is "Norouz" and it must be kept in all sister articles. This article must be consistent with the main article on Norouz. --User:Sina Kardar08:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Persian article (Norouz) by itself has no widely accpetd term while among Kurds the common word is Newroz, any other term does not belong to Kurdish word. when you directly discuss Kurds then you should use the term Newroz not other irrelevant terms. Diyako Talk + 08:58, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The word that are used in academic sources are: Noruz, Norooz, and Norouz and it refers to the festival in general including kurdish one. I do not want to repeat myself. Read yesterday's discussions and sources. It seems that you don't have a good memory. No academic source used the word Newroz as its title.--User:Sina Kardar09:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


This is you who should read the yesterday discussion, as i said 10000000 million times the name of festival for the Kurdish people is Newroz, is it hard to understand???

http://www.kevinmckiernan.com/article_turkey.html Diyako Talk + 09:05, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I wrote all yesterday's dicussions. You did NOT provide any sources yesterday. You can say it 100000000 times more. What you personally think does not count. We need academic sources. Come out of politics. --User:Sina Kardar09:09, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Sina you cannot just my sources. Wikipedia:V. I have provided enough sources. All my sources are verifiable, reliable, neutral, and directly discuss the case of Kurds. Diyako Talk + 09:12, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


Where are those ENOUGH!!!! sources ? As always you claimed without offering evidence that "the boggus norouz please respect the Kurdish world" . SOURCE IT ! my friend! --User:Sina Kardar09:15, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Can not you see or read my sources?? I have provided several dozens of sources Is it hard to see them? do not kill Kurdish world. Diyako Talk + 09:18, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I am waiting for your sources on the above claim. --User:Sina Kardar09:19, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


I don't think you are my friend that I to be your friend. You do not resdpect anything Kurdish. ignore my sources. Don't forget I'm not new on wiki. Diyako Talk + 09:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I am waiting for your sources. Do not change the subject. --User:Sina Kardar09:22, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok see below, Diyako Talk + 09:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Newroz and the Kurds, Kurdish celebration of Newroz

These all sources and dozens other sources are these verifiable? If so then find an admin that says these sources are not verifiable and Diyako lies. Diyako Talk + 09:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I am still waiting for your sources. Claim1: "the boggus norouz please respect the Kurdish world" where is its source ? Source it then we go through your other claims. State the claim and source it. --User:Sina Kardar09:38, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Please don't change the matter of Kurds and newroz. So you accept that Newroz is the Kurdish celebartion of Newroz. Diyako Talk + 09:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I have not yet accepted your first claim let alone thinking about others. Why don't you source your strong statement ??!!! --User:Sina Kardar09:42, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Second claim by Diyako: "Newroz is the Kurdish celebartion of Newroz." --User:Sina Kardar09:43, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


You are changing the matter, Norouz in the case of Kurds is boggus, and uncorrect, and to the Kurdish culture an insult. Do Persian people like to be called Farsis? I was warned for that although I provided several sources that in English the term farsis is correct. Diyako Talk + 09:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I am waiting to see sources for both claims separately. (I have also sources for Farsi-Persian story.) --User:Sina Kardar09:50, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Your source reads: ....Kurdish/Iranian/Persian/Zoroastrian NEWROZ festival, calling it merely, like Europeans, a spring!!!! festival! You provided a source against yourself !!! -- User:Sina Kardar09:52, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Diyako, your disruptive behaviour has been reported to the admin's incident board. Please do not repeat the 'farsi' thing, you have already been warned twice and you will most probably be blocked if you bring it up again.
Look sina, Maybe you are young, I do not like playing and wasting my time Duscussing with you has no result and wasting time. This is why I prefer to discuss the matter with others than you. Diyako Talk + 09:53, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

If there are Kurds living in Iran, where Norouz is a public holiday, they perfectly know what it is. Do not push your POV. --Kash 09:53, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Kurds in Iran are a minority and they are KURDS. Diyako Talk + 09:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Whats your point? Iranians in UK are a minority, but they perfectly know what Christmas is. Do not make any more disruptions here, as I said I have reported you on the admin's notice board and I suggest you keep out of this --Kash 09:57, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I like it at least some admins will watch the discussion and will find the truth. Diyako Talk + 10:05, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


Thank you very much Diyako for your ENOUGH sources. --User:Sina Kardar09:56, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
You are welcome, I provided many sources but people who are BIASED dot not SEE the truth. Diyako Talk + 09:58, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Diyako please see Wikipedia:Don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point, also read Wikipedia:Verifiability reads: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." --Kash 10:03, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

You have ever read them?!Diyako Talk + 10:05, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
And all of my sources are verifiable, Mayor of London is not a Kurdish separatist. Diyako Talk + 10:06, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
No. None of your sources claim that it is a different festival than Norouz. The Newroz basically a PKK movement as it is mentioned in many of your sources. What Mayor of London says in an interview can not be used as a source to support your rootless claims, just as much as Ahmadinejad or Bush's claims do not qualify on this matter. Also, Kurds are Iranian people atleast linguistically, so do not say "its an insult" again. --Kash 10:12, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Anyway there IS a Kurdish celebration of Newroz you cannot censor or kill that. Kurds are or not not Iranic is another matter does not to this Anti-Newroz discussion.Diyako Talk + 10:15, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
You can not also deny its Iranian nature. [6][7]. --User:Sina Kardar10:22, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Please read the source provided by Dyiako: [8]. This clearly says that Turks use Spring festival instead of Newroz festival just to suppress kurds. Then Dyiako himself replaced the word Norouz with Spring !!!! in Norouz page. The source also says that Newroz is both Kurdish and Persian (no distinction). --User:Sina Kardar10:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
because you used the term Norouz and did not accepted Newroz so I replaced it with that which I find it much better than Norouz. Diyako Talk + 10:38, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Your personal view does not count. Newroz = Norouz accoring to the sources that we have. and your replacement with Spring is an insult to Kurds and Iranians according to the source that you yourself provided. --User:Sina Kardar10:42, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Why u cannot undesrtand khanoom/agha!! There is a KuRDISH NEWROZ and It deservs its ownn article. The sources clealy says Newroz. Diyako Talk + 10:44, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Your source is against it. --User:Sina Kardar10:45, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Newroz is both Kurdish and Persian

Source provided by Diyako, shows that Newroz is Iranian/Persian/Kurdish/Zorostrian festival. No distinction between Kurdish and Persian Newroz. Newroz is also used for Persians. --User:Sina Kardar10:57, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


Yes, and we can state that in the article. Diyako Talk + 11:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kurdish researchers believe that Newroz is a Persian festival taken blindly by Kurds

I personally believe that Norouz is an Iranian festival (Iranian includes Persians, Kurds, Lors , ...). This is also reflected in the academic sources that I provided previously. However there are KURDISH researches who believe that Newroz is purely Persian and has been taken blindly by Kurds. Here is an article by Dr. Hussein Tahriri:Newroz --User:Sina Kardar10:19, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


Excellent sources! atlast we have one reliable source, from a Kurd friend. We should use this to rewrite the article, and perhaps add the PKK involvements (there is already pictures of the demonstrations in the article) --Kash 10:25, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Goood!! you can add this to the article, I appreciate such info. It is nice!! I like it. Diyako Talk + 10:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Excellent! we are done here. The article clearly says: "If Newruz is the celebration of the coming of warm season, is it a Kurdish, Persian, or belongs to both of them. After the fall of the Medes the Kurds have been under the influence of the Persians. The Kurds could have got this celebration from the Persians. The Kurds have done no research on the origin of Newruz. The available research is from the Persians, and they regard Newruz as an Iranian national celebration." This is vital to be included --Kash 10:27, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you Dear Khashayar. Diyako Talk + 10:27, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Time out for me, the article looks very neutral to me, I think the article fails to mention the similarities between the Kawa (infact I don't think they are different persons at all) and Kaveh, who was ofcourse in Shahnameh, same as Zahak all of these are Shahnameh characters.. but the article fails to mention this obvious thing --Kash 10:37, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The article make no distinction between Persian and Kurdish Norouz. Newroz is Persian, as the author claim. --User:Sina Kardar10:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, we can state that in the article that Dear Hussein Tahiri believes so. Also, he spells it as Newruz! Diyako Talk + 10:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

This is also another source provided by YOU that says there is no distinction between Persian and Kurdish Newroz. [9]. If This is the case we do not need to have two pages for the same thing. Newroz is Persian and equal to Norouz. Here is the statement in your source : Kurdish/Iranian/Persian/Zoroastrian NEWROZ festival. --User:Sina Kardar10:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Hello friends. It seems that some hours away from the screen decreased the tensions and increased the willingness to seek a compromise :-) Have you seen Jeff3000's propasal? I think it is a very good settlement. Please weigh in at Talk:Norouz#Possible_version_for_Norouz Bertilvidet 10:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
It seems we are coming to a common conclusion. There are sources provided by me and Diyako, both saying that Newroz = Norouz is an Iranian/Persian/Kurdish/Zorostrian festival. --User:Sina Kardar10:45, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

are you ready to rename the Irani article to Newroz? Diyako Talk + 10:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

No because it is not the most common word in the whole Iranian continent. My personal view does not count. WE sould follow academic sources as encyclopedia Iranica or britannica or Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies or UNESCO proposal. --User:Sina Kardar10:50, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

--User:Sina Kardar10:52, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


Ok, Then what about the article Kurdish celebration of Newroz? IAn article that directly discuss the issue among Kurdish people as well as it's history, events, varioations, Diyako Talk + 10:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The article should be either merged with the mother one or We can also keep a page on "Norouz among Kurds (Newroz)" as I suggested before (as a daughter page). But according to the sources that you provided, we should make it clear that this is not a different festival, just a local version. We should also mentioned that It is Kurdish/Iranian/Persian/Zoroastrian NEWROZ festival. --User:Sina Kardar11:04, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
and I had already added this to the article.Diyako Talk + 11:12, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

You can help by editing or adding info to the article, but since the common name for it in the case of Kurds is Newroz I prefer the title to use the word Newroz, or at least Something like Kurdish celebration of Newroz. Diyako Talk + 11:09, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

We have to be neutral and consistent. My suggestion satisfies both requirements: "Norouz among Kurds (Newroz)" --User:Sina Kardar11:12, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

In the case of kurdish people it is Newroz [10], drop the Norouz. Diyako Talk + 11:13, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

You are neither expert nor representative of Kurdish people. There are Kurdish articles using the word Norouz. My another suggestion is : Title ="Norouz among Kurds" and then introduce Newroz in the body. --User:Sina Kardar11:16, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I wonder how you are denying the truth!! Is it hard to understand that there is a Newroz on this planet??????? Diyako Talk + 11:19, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Don't wonder toomuch. I wrote my comment before you add the source. Your source does not exculde other things. Provide a source that clearly make a distinction between Norouz and Newroz, indicating that for Kurds we have to use Newroz not Norouz. You already had a few baseless claims like this before (the insult story!). Again we need to be neutral and consistent. --User:Sina Kardar11:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


Prohibiting and censoring Newroz is a political pressure against Kurds (I don't meen you). It is important for Kurds. http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27869.htm
Is it hard to understand Newroz=Norouz and it is not Kurdish ?!! I do not remeber that I denied the existence and usage of Newroz. This is another baseless claim.

Provide a source indicating that Nowruz is a political issue in Iran and among Iranians. Provide a source indicating that Turks have only problem with Newroz but not Norouz. --User:Sina Kardar11:26, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Here the discussion is on Kurds not Turks and the fatc that in the case of Kurds Newroz is correct, and preferd by Kurdish world. Diyako Talk + 11:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe some people are concernd on the case of Kurds in Iran, As you see none of my references are on Iran but~. Diyako Talk + 11:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Provide a source saying that there are some politicians who want to destroy Newroz and replace it with Norouz. --User:Sina Kardar11:30, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Find a statement by me, saying that Newroz is not suppressed in Turkey. I have never said such a thing. Both Norouz and Newroz !! are probably suppressed in Turkey. --User:Sina Kardar11:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

So let both have their articles. Diyako Talk + 11:34, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

There is no distinction between Newroz and Norouz. I used both of them just to show that your claim and distinction is wrong. We do not need two articles as you could not make a distinction between the two. We have enough articles saying that Newroz= Norouz. --User:Sina Kardar11:38, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


What....? No they does not claim they are the same. sure there Afghans/Persian, Tajiks, etc have a spring festival but Kurds have their own version which is Newroz. Diyako Talk + 11:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

It is not true. Newroz is not for Kurds based on your own source. Another claim: 'in the case of Kurds Newroz is correct and Norouz is wrong. Source ? Our sources uses all words for all ethnic groups. No distinction. --User:Sina Kardar11:42, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


Newroz is associated with the Kurds. Diyako Talk + 11:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I never said it is not associated with Kurds. I suggested title as "Norouz among Kurds (Newroz)" which means I knew this point. But: It is not ONLY associated with Kurds and it is NOT different form Norouz (your own source).

The source that you provided (academic or not?) suggest to use Nauroz for all countries. There is a problem between Kurds and Turks and it only applies to Turkey. We can mention this in all articles. But the standard word would not be Newroz but Nauroz or Norouz. Is your source in a position to define spelling for the world ? Is it academic ? --User:Sina Kardar11:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


Dear Sina, Kurds and Kurdishness is not a country. I do not care what you name the Norouz article. But the fact is that there is a 'Newroz' (with any defintion) and has its own story and events, I'm defending existnce of such a article. Diyako Talk + 11:59, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I think there is no point to talk about the statement (Nauroz for all countries) in your source before we prove that the authors have expertise on the issue. The statement is very strong and we need to be careful. --User:Sina Kardar12:09, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
If it is going to be a page on Norouz in Kurdish regions the title must be "Norouz among Kurds (Newroz)" which means:
  • 1. the universal name is Norouz (refer to main article on Norouz).
  • 2. Kurds use this spelling in Turkey and it has become serious due to political reasons.
  • 3. Kurds in Iran and other Iranian Kurdish media use Norouz and also other spellings.

This title is neutral and quite satisfactory. --User:Sina Kardar12:03, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

No3 is another matter and I leave it for others, No2 is Correct. No1 There is a Kurdish Newroz and it has become universal and quite common in English. result: How is that the important term of newroz goes in parantheses? Diyako Talk + 12:10, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

First of all No3 is very very important and we can not put it for later times! Second, Evenif we are going to take your suggestion then we should say that "festival X among Kurds is known as Newroz". In other words, the title would be : "X festival among Kurds (Newroz)" . --User:Sina Kardar12:14, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Even the title provided by me might be misleading because your source says that Newroz is also Persian. So we can not use the wrod in a way that it means it only belongs to Kurds.--User:Sina Kardar12:18, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

This is another matters you can create an article for that, but there is a Newroz and I defend it. Diyako Talk + 12:20, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

You need sources for your defence. Your personal view is not important. I again insist on the importance of No3. Newroz is not a holly word for Kurds in Iran (camparing to Norouz and Norooz). Because other spellings are used in their media. It seems it does not make any sense to follow this discussion, as you only talk about your personal view rather than following wikipedia policies. --User:Sina Kardar12:25, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Ben bin kere dedim kurtler konusunda newroz dogru. buna bak! http://www.dpa.de/en/stylebook/mideast.htm Diyako Talk + 12:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The Kurds' Newroz is similar to neighboring Iran's Noruz and has been celebrated for at least 3,000 years, long predating Islam..Diyako Talk + 12:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conclusion?

My understanding of the general consensus (after the new structure of the Norouz page) is that this page can now be redirected to Norouz, and the full article on the Kurdish Newroz (however it is decided to be spelled will be linked as it is on the Norouz page. Is that correct, and if so can we get this page unprotected, and redirect it to Norouz. -- Jeff3000 23:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

If our friends agree to the title of the article Kurdish celebration of Newroz then as a compromose I agree to redirect the blanked Newroz article (this article) to the page Norouz. It seems logical to me. Diyako Talk + 23:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Agree, I think however first we should have approval from at least Kash and Sinar Kadar at Talk:Norouz#Possible_version_for_Norouz as they have been very engaged in the debate. I have asked them on their respective user pages to weigh in. Bertilvidet 10:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Assyrian king?

"According to the Kurdish legends, Newroz celebrates the overthrow of Zuhak (Dehaq) the tyrant, an Assyrian king"

I'm abit confused; was this Zuhar a real king or a mythical story? Because I can't see no Zuhar as king in the Assyrian kings page? Chaldean 03:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This is actually an Iranian legend. You can find it also in the Shahnameh, and the king in question is there called Zahak. This is again a ridiculous claim of Kurdish editors, calling this Iranian legend a Kurdish one. I can only feel pitty for the uninformed reader who arrives on this page and is confronted with this nonsense. Shervink 15:59, 28 April 2006 (UTC)shervink
This may well be an iranian legend (note iranian includes Kurds). However the Kurdish form of Newroz-legend and the celebration differ from other iranian legends and celebrations. So your claim that this is nonsense is not true, still i agree that it should be made clear that Newroz is not exclusively a Kurdish celebration.

[edit] Norouz and Newroz are different transliterations of the same word

Is this article seriously claiming that Newroz and Norouz are two different things??? If this is meant to be a joke, it is not funny. This article should be deleted. One article for Norouz is obviously sufficient. Shervink 15:59, 28 April 2006 (UTC)shervink

Newroz is a redirect to Norouz. Hope this sorts things out. Bertilvidet 16:04, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

The kurdish name of the tyrant king is Azh-Dahak not Zuhak. Zuhak, used by Firawsi, is the arabic form of Azh-Dahak. Azh-Dahak is derived from Rshti Vega Azhi-Dahak(Astyages).

[edit] Mythology Section

It should be added that the Kurdish year starts 612BC with the defeat of the Assyrians and the end of the, in a kurdish point of view, lowland-assyrian tyranny. And there is perhaps a grain of truth in the Kawe story, in case of a war between the highland Kurds and the lowland Asyrrians. And the end of the assyrian "tyrannt" kings reign over the Kurds. This has later become a legendary tale with Kawe's upprising, but there is a clear symbolism here. The story has later been corrupted through Zoroastrian influence to the extent that the tyrrant king is no other than Azh-Dehak(greek- Astyages, arabic- Zuhhak) whose troops slayed Zoroaster and overthrew his patron king Vishtaspa. This corruption is clear as Azh-Dehak is demonized by the zoroastrians, a good example is that the only word for dragon in persian is Azhdeha(Ezhdeha). It is also important to note that Kurds were never in any large nubers Zoroastrian, this is a common misunderstanding among Kurds today. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.66.17.145 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Pictures

We have a set of pictures on this article which all look like from the same rally in Turkey. I think it is best if we remove one or two to make the overall look less political? --Rayis 14:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reliability of the source

Here is the exact wording from the source that is being used:

"The most important holiday is Kurdish New Year (Newroz), on March 21, celebrating an ancient Kurdish legend marking the independence of Kurds"
Rasbridge, Lance Andrew; Kemp, Charles (2004). Refugee and Immigrant Health: A Handbook for Health Professionals. Cambridge University Press, pg. 236. ISBN 0521535603. 

I've also changed the wording somewhat, and added a second source. -- Jeff3000 01:03, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The name

Will you please stop unilaterally moving this page around? The name has been subject to intense debate when the article was started roughly one year ago. The Kurdish celebration is spelled Newroz, which also is the spelling of Kurmanci using the Latin alphabet. Thank you for understanding and cooperation. Bertilvidet 11:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Would people please take this serious. If in doubt make a Google search, and you will realize that all Kurdish sources as well as major English language media, such as BBC, International Herald Tribune, The Guardian etc. spell it Newroz. Wikipedia is not a platform to impose some kind of ethnic or linguistic supremacy. Bertilvidet
Also, such a stupid revert war leaves a horrible mess. Please calm down and appreciate the heterogeneity of our world! Bertilvidet 13:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Eh? "calm down"?! You are the one who keeps reverting it back to what you want. I find it very disrespectful for you to think that any edit I or anyone makes that you don't like is "bullying an ethnic" (group). Please assume good faith, for all you know if it wasn't for my proposal for merge and encouragement to improve the article in the discussion, this article was in a much worse situation than it is now. Regards --Rayis 14:17, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh and also regarding your comment here, "Iranian" is not an ethnic group, if you are referring to Iranian peoples, Kurds are included in that --Rayis 14:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Insisting on moving the page to the transliteration "nouroz" when we all know that the Kurds use "Newroz" which is internationally recognize, without giving any explanation or addressing my comments, does really seem like bullying and disrespectful of an ethnic group. Bertilvidet 16:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the change you made. How come you never discussed this in the talk page? because I don't believe this is true at all, Persians only populate just over half of Iran. I don't see anywhere in the article that says "As celebrated by Persians"? or are you claiming that thats the way Persians celebrate it, while all other ethnic groups celebrate it differently? perhaps you should share these theories in the Norouz talk page so we can dicuss them. --Rayis 16:37, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
About the second comment there, that's not true either, the largest estimate for Persian ethnic group is 40 million while largest for Kurds is 37 million (both on Wikipedia), so unless we are picky here I think you are just making a point --Rayis 16:41, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

1) I made this change because you were right on that, my point was Persians, not Iranians - I would expect you to appreciate that. 2) WP:BIAS is not about sizes of populations, rather on the contrary as most of the world does not have a computer with internet access. Bertilvidet 17:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Celebrated in Kurdish regions"

Is there any source or evidence that shows that it is celebrated differently in Iranian Kurdistan by Kurds there, to other regions of Iran? --Rayis 13:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy

Rayis has put up an accuracy tag. If there are no reliable sources which show that the accuracy of the article is wrong, I will remove it in a day. Users cannot unilaterly believe that an article in inaccurate. They have to provide sources, and in those cases, they can be included in the article to fix it. -- Jeff3000 16:41, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

See above. Please provide sources for generalised statements otherwise the data is inaccurate. Regards, --Rayis 16:43, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Which statements, please provide a list here, and I will easily show that they are true. -- Jeff3000 17:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Please provide the specific sentences here. -- Jeff3000 17:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Basically, at the moment I am referring to the opening sentence "The Kurdish celebration of Norouz refers the celebration of the traditional Iranian new year holiday of Norouz in Kurdish regions."
This would be more accurate in my opinion if it was reverted to the original sentence "by some Kurds" or something similar. The truth is that I dont think there is consistency among how all Kurds celebrate it, mainly referring to Kurds in Iran and Kurds in Turkey, I really doubt that they celebrate it the same way or even have similar beliefs about it's legend. For example, it is well publicised that Kurds in Turkey have huge political protests on Norouz. Do Kurds in Iran go to streets and form demonstrations and wave Kurdish colours in the air?! I think you would agree with me that whatever a source says it has to be taken in context. I am sure you would agree to this, regardless of what "Refugee and Immigrant Health: A Handbook for Health Professionals" may say. --Rayis 18:12, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Of course not all Kurds celebrate it in the same way, and that is noted in the article. There is a sentence on Iran, a couple paragraphs on Turkey, a paragraph on Syria, and a paragraph on the diaspora. You are also stuck to to the Health professional book, but notice that that statement is backed by more than one reference, and in truth most of the books that I've referenced also back it up. I have to go now, but when I come back I'll go searching through those books, add those references to the sentence, remove the health reference, and reword the lead sentence to state something to the effect that not all Kurds celebrate it the same way. Note that for Iran, the source is "The Kurds: A concise handbook" which states, referring to why the Kurds in Turkey starting to use Newroz as political means:
"Perhaps New Ruz has just been getting better press because of the prominence that its staunchest adherents - the Iraqi and Iranian Kurds - have been enjoying through their more frequent popular uprisings."
Thus the Iraqi and Iranian Kurds have used Newroz in political means. -- Jeff3000 18:36, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I am not "stuck" with anything, please keep it WP:Civil. I don't necessary agree with that conclusion, but as always I look forward to your contributions. --Rayis 18:53, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) states that one should use the most common name. For the Kurdish celebration it is clearly Newroz as evidenced by Google searchs:

  • "norouz kurds -wikipedia" - 1,530
  • "newroz kurds -wikipedia" - 34,200
  • "newroz kurdish -wikipedia" - 71,400
  • "norouz kurdish -wikipedia" - 5,610

I will be changing it. -- Jeff3000 16:46, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure you moved the talk pages right, this way we have lost the history for the talk page --Rayis 16:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On Dehak (Zahak)'s background

I have provided views of different Kurdish scholars on the subject. Some believe that he was a Persian Tyrant, while others associate him with Astyages the last King of the Medes.Heja Helweda 21:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Although this is a legend but all legends somehow have a root in realities and historical events. Dehak does not seem to have been a Persian. The most possible alternatives are either Assyrian or Azhi Dehak. Assyrian because Assyrians were very tyrant rulers who used to harass all the peoples of Media and neighbouring areas. It also may have been Azhi Dehak the Mede King.
it is also possible that Dehak represents both, as is said here. Asoyrun 12:38, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually Zahak goes back to pre-median time. He is mentioned in the Vedas along with Kawah..the legend was later reformulated by Ferdowsi. --alidoostzadeh 02:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Heja's attempt to label Dehak as Persian is in no way accurate. First of all it cannot be justified by historical events att all: Out of four pre-islamic great Iranian empires two were Perasian: Achaemenids and Sassanids. Achaemenids were overthown by Alexander the Great, who is a wellknown figure which is impossible to have been confused and mistaken by people; If Kawa was Alexander then people used the name Askandar for him not Kawa. Sassanids were overthrown by Arabs whom cannot be confused by Kawa, at all!! Indeed Kurds and most Iranians fiercly resisted arabs invasion for centuries. Arabs were not regarded as saviors. Even Parthians cannot have been Zahak because Kurds over all had good relations with Partians.
Second as far as I know even Sharafkhan Bedlisi did not identify Dehak as Persian. Indeed Sharafkhan had good relations with Persian Kings. So please dont spoil the legend by adding "Persian Zahak"!! Asoyrun 01:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shahnameh and Kurdish myth

I think it would be appropriate if we put the Kurdish myth as presented by the Kurdish Institute of Paris in the first paragraph and move the Shahnameh's story a bit down after that, since this article is mainly focused on the Kurdish viewpoint regarding Newroz/Norouz not other ethnicities. Afterall Shahnameh's stuff is just another legend not a historical fact.Heja Helweda 21:44, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

NO it wouldn't Kurdish institute's viewpoint is OR and not neutral source. If you look at Mary Boyce Zoroastrians and recent studies, Zahak is three headed dragon in Avesta. .. also all classical sources put Kawa from Esfahan. --alidoostzadeh 00:02, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The point is to represent different points of view hence following a NPOV policy. We have to learn that different people may have different interpretations and just respect them.Heja Helweda 00:20, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Nope NPOV holds when only there are scholarly sources or primary/secondary sources. This is not a matter of opinion. History of Zahak , Kawah and Avesta, Shahnameh and many classical texts will be brought forth. That is NPOV. Not what some who knows what type of racist with inferiority complex who lacks academics credentials and academic publications says about Zahak. Stating a lie as a fact and trying to give it weight is unacceptable. Your argument is like given weight to say some misguided nationalists who claimed Kurds as mountain ... and then stating it as a fact. --alidoostzadeh 00:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The other myth

Heja helweda stated that it is "another myth in which Dehak is portrayed as Persian." and cited Kurdish Institute of Paris (2001-03). Newroz 2001: In Diyarbekir the celebrations brought together, in a calm atmosphere, 5000,000 people but there were many incidents in Istanbul. Retrieved on March 13, 2007.. After reading the page, there seems to be no significant difference between the legends, except the tyrant is Persian and not Assyrian. The page does not state that is a fundamentally different legend. Thus I'm removing the paragraph, and stating in the original sentence that the ethnicity could be one of two things. Regards, -- Jeff3000 21:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kurdish Spelling and Pronunciation

'Newrooz' is not a Kurdish spelling,
In Kurdish the word is pronounced as [naʊroz] which according to Kurdish alphabet is spelled as 'Newroz' since '/e/' in Kurdish alphabet represents short /a/ as in 'cat' and /o/ represents O as in door not /u/ as in Persian, Arabic or Turkish versions of the word. Furthermore in Kurdish never two O'es come together.
Therefor I remove Newrooz.
Also NûRoj is the translation of the original Avestan (religious language of Aryans) word in modern Kurdish. Roj is the Kurdish word for 'day' and 'sun'. /j/ in Kurdish represents a consonant as in /si/ in television. Asoyrun 01:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The Newrooz spelling I added was from the same article that quotes NuRoj. Oh and for reference, both words of No/Nu/however you spell it and also Roz, Ruz, Rooz is also in modern Persian and they both mean the same things as they do in Kurdish. They are both Iranian languages so the words are share linguistical origin, unlike any Turkish or Arab words you were thinking of --Rayis 11:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually Avesta/Pahlavi is Rooch and not Roj. --alidoostzadeh 00:02, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Izady's false claim

Azhi Dahak is still venerated as Sultan Sahak by the adherents of the Yarsan religion[1].

This is utterly false and Sahak is seen as equivalent to the divine. Sahak and Zahak are two different names and one can not use folk etymology to connect them. --alidoostzadeh 04:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I respect your personal opinion, but you have to back up your claim with sources not just words. Izady's book is an important reference on Kurdish people.Heja Helweda 05:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
It is not a personal opinion. I have lots of direct sources in original Ahl-e-Haq language and Persian. Now what is your direct reference? Minorsky is more qualified than Izady. As far as I know Izady's book has a lot of errors. Minorsky has a more detailed article in EI about the subject and none of the manifestation of Sultan Sahak is related to Azhi Dahak . Also please stop relating the three headed dragon Zahak to Sultan Sahak (which is really an attack on the ahl-e-Haqq religion as if there was not enough already but I am suprised by Izady), Persians and etc based on non-academic sources. Is it not better to start with the Avesta concept and understand the concept of Zahak in Avesta and Vedas which are the oldest texts? And any sort of mythological claim should have proof from direct academic sources. --alidoostzadeh 05:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Identifying the last Emperor of the Medes with Sultan Sahak is not considered as an insult or attack by the Kurds. It just points to the antiquity of the Yarsan beliefs which predate Zoroasterianism.Heja Helweda 23:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
It is baseless and lacks sources. It is not in the Ahl-e-Haqq manuscript. Also Minorsky has all the cycles in Encyclopedia of Islam for the manifestations. Yarsan was founded by Sultan Sahak but it has some beliefs which may seem pre-Islamic but that is another discussion. I am just discussing the cycles based on Ahl-e-Haqq manuscripts. Izady's whole remark on Zahak is not realistic as I mentioned since Avesta and Veda pre-date Achaemenid times and the Achaemenids really did not have anything to do with the myth. --alidoostzadeh 00:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why?

Why you changed name of the article? First it is not only turkey, Kurds in Iraq and especially in Syria have had a similar experince with Newroz; Second turkey is not an accurate name for Kurdish lands. turkey is name of a bird, and turks are recent turkic-mongolic migrants from northeastern Asia. That's unfair, at least use name Anatolia, though Kurdistan is a more accurate alternative since not all Kurds live in Anatolia ( but in upper Mesopotamia). Asoyrun 00:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

watch of ethnic slurs regarding Turks or Turkey! you may be banned permanently. --Pejman47 00:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
and it is well discussed in this talk page, there is no any valid source that says that etymology differs, but due to alleged repression of government of Turkey (it is not a bird!), their practice of Newrouz have "other meaning and aspects", too. there is no difference in practice of Norouz by Kurds in Iran or Iraq with other citizens(and you know that). That move was the only way to keep this article. regards,--Pejman47 00:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
What about Kurds in Syria?? What about Kurds in Europe?? which ethnic slur you're talking about? Asoyrun 00:25, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I mean this: "turkey is name of a bird, and turks are recent turkic-mongolic migrants from northeastern Asia", in Europe and Iran and Iraq, they had and have freedom to do what they want in Norouz and doesn't have any other "hidden" meaning as in Turkey. if you have sources that says celebration of kurds in Syria have also a "hidden" message. You are welcome to move it to Newroz as celebrated by Kurds in Turkey and Syria.--Pejman47 00:29, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I did not know saying you are a turkic people offends you. Turks being recent immigrants is discussed in the article Turkish people. also Newroz in Syria has been discussed in the article. you have to read it once again. also hundreds of thousands of Kurds celebrate Newroz the same was as in turkey (Anatolia) and Syria. Asoyrun 00:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Where it has been discussed to blank the artyicle?? Asoyrun 00:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems that Norouz was also banned in syria too. So, you can move that to " Newroz as celebrated by Kurds in Turkey and Syria", and it was not blanking, it was merging because the etymology and other thing have been said in the main article. cheers. --Pejman47 00:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

What etymology??? It was mythology!Etymology of Neworz is the same, all derive from Avestan, but mythology is different. You removed the mythology section. Also you removed substantial parts of the article. Asoyrun 00:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I confused mythology with etymology (I am not native speaker of English!). The mythology was also the same, see the above talk. now I must sleep, till tomorrow. --Pejman47 00:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
For naming of the article I have no problem with Syria; Syria is an anciet name. but name of turkey has no historic background. It is also name of a bird in case you were no aware: Turkey (bird), and may sound confusing for many readres; though unfortunately you took it as an offense but that was not what i meant. turkey is a new name for Anatolia. I can agree on Newroz as celebrated by Kurds in Anatolia and Syria. Though it does not cover Kurds in diaspora but thats fine with me. Regards. Asoyrun 01:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
And etymology is only about the origin of the word and its usage, but mythology is about legends about the celebration by a certain people. Asoyrun 01:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Given the discussion on the Norouz page I did extensive research on the Kurdish celebration, and completely cited this article. There are reliable sources indicating that the celebrations portray a Kurdish identity in Turkey, Syria, Iraq and the Kurdish diaspora. That Iranian Kurds do or do not (there has not been any reliable sources to indicate it) does not invalidate the verifiable information that the festival is political in nature for the majority of Kurds, and who use the same legend, which differs from the original Persian legend (rightly or wrongly). Please do not remove cited information. -- Jeff3000 04:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi guys. Please kindly do not over-react to the assertion of Persian origin for Dehak. This is not intended as an insult. If you look carefully, the persian myth itself is depicting Zahhak as an Arab. How come this is not an insult and Dehak is?. The point is among different ethnic groups, there may be different ways of looking at similar legends. So, please, it is just a legend, do not quarrel over academic sources, because Dehak or Zahhak really did not exist in history. So arguing over Shahnama or whatever is pointless. They are characters created by people. Persians see it in a particular way and Kurds interpret it in another way.Heja Helweda 22:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Your source is not scholarly. What ancient Kurdish source considers Zahak as Persian? We cano not make up stuff and then say its legends without scholarly sources. Which Professor or scholar has mentioned such a claim. I can start a political website and claim Zahak was a Martian and then give a link to it. But that is not how wiki works. Also your are not the only Kurd here, so do not generalize. Another example... Sahak is just another pronounciation of Eshaq and in Armenian it is Sahak (see Ivanow who is more of scholar than Izady ). There is no etymological connection to Zahak. Sahak is just armenian loanword. And that is why Sultan Sahak is also called Sultan Eshaq. There needs to be a standard. Ibn Kathir (who you believe was a Kurd) also mentions Zahak as semitic Arab.. So does Ferdowsi. Those are classical sources by all means. I believe before Ferdowsi perhaps Tabari mentions this (I can double check). But one can not makeup sources that have no references from random websites which are non-academic and non-published. Anyways both Ferdowsi and Ibn Kathir are now not correct but at least they are classical sources. See here for more of the ancient background of the story: [11]. --alidoostzadeh 01:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Kurds in Kermanshah have Haft-sin. So we can say some Kurds..--alidoostzadeh 01:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but the article's name is not Newroz as celebrated by SOME Kurds or Newroz in Kermanshah. It should contain traits and traditions that are shared among all Kurds. You can add that some Iranian Kurds have haftsin, etc., but when you add the tag, it wrongly implies that all Kurds practice those things. Cheers and Hêvîya serkeftinê ji bo we dixwazim li sala nû de:)Heja Helweda 02:04, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Jazhni Nawroz tan piroz be. Piroz bet Nawroz la hamu. Nawroz has it's own pecularities in each region thus as long as a region celebrates it we should have. By the way calling Sahak as Zahak is considered an insult and since it is not academic, it should be removed from any such articles. thanx.--alidoostzadeh 02:33, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree, but the article is about Kurds not Persians, and those traditions are not part of Kurdish culture. Some Persians in the US also celebrate thanksgiving and christmas but that does not mean those are part of Persian culture.Heja Helweda 02:42, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I disagree. Some of these traditions are pre-Islamic and shared. I think you need to examine how each Kurdish region celebrates Nawroz to make a generalization about the whole. Also it can't be compared to thanksgiving as no one has migrated here. In Iran (even persian speaking parts) there could be variety of regional customs. As a whole though all customs relevant should be mentioned and not disregarded. --alidoostzadeh 03:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-03-10 Newroz as celebrated by Kurds

Please have a look at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-03-10 Newroz as celebrated by Kurds. Thank you. —— Eagle101 Need help? 04:07, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

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