User talk:Neurobio

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[edit] Cheap tactics revelaed

You may want to read some of the cheap tactics confessed by Fadix and THOTH [1] :)

You may also want to check Fadix's hillarious RfA draft [2], I cannot wait the time he submits this, he's clearly going to make a fool of himself :) 24.211.192.250 17:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Armenian Genocide

You're right Turks don't sufficiently defend their rightful position and they only stay in defense only reacting to Armenian attacks from time to time. The main reason is that Turks are not obsessed about this issue as much as Armenians. It's as if Armenian's whole being in this world, on the other hand an average Turk doesn't know about this issue and doesn't care about this issue, especially Turks living in Turkey. Most Turks are not aware of the anomosity of Armenians and their obsession on this issue.

Much can be done in this article, but I'm going through a busy time period in my career, so I cannot promise to contribute heavily, however I'll try to support others.

I think the best strategy is to stay away from any discussion that is not directed at contributing to the article, that's only a waste of time. We should pay extra effort to keep discussions focused. That's Fadix's main weapon, providing irrelevant sheer amount of information to counter his opponents claims.

With regard to the article, We should not accept framing the issue as the main position vs. Turkish goverment position. Their objective is to degrade the opposing view to Turkish government position. However, it's not only Turkish goverment who does not buy their claims. Turkish people (not only goverment), scholars like Lewis, Lewy, etc. and countries like UK, USA, Israel, and many others don't accept it. We should push strongly framing the article position supporting genocide claims vs. position opposing claims.

One also needs to make distinction between not accepting genocide and denial. The position we should push for is that this is unsettled history (as opposed to saying it did not happen), further research is needed to reach a conclusive decision, findings so far don't support genocide claims, to the contrary the large death toll is mainly due to intercommunal warfare, diseases, etc.

I also think more can be added with regard to comparison with the Jewish holocoust. The main difference -missing in the article- is that there is not an equivalent of Nuremberg trials. Armenians so far could not show the courage to go to an international court. This is quite important, which needs to expanded in the article. The Armenian lobby's strategy is to put pressure on politicians, exploit western democracies and get legistlation passed in these countries, as opposed to bringing their case to an international court or agreeing to forming a committee of international historians to research the issue. We should try to clearly reveal this sick strategy in the article.

I'm not a historian, so I cannot say much about the validity of death toll statistics or the events that led to relocation decisions, but I'm suspicious about the claims articulated in the article.

Finally, we should push for adding tallarmeniantale site to the external links. They are scared to death from this web site. Their arguments (racist web site, providign false info) are baseless. There are links to even terrorist organization web sites such as PKK, in other articles. So there should not be problem for tallarmeniantale given that it's most well known non-govermental website.

Yeah, there are lots of things to do. One more thing unless somebody requests unprotection, the article will stay protected.

Cheers Deepblue06 23:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

For the record, I wasn't banned due to anything for the Armenian genocide article. I'm quite positive that I can get THOTH and Fadix punished if I spend some time for that, but I don't think this's worth the effort. Fadix accused me at least 3-4 times for being somebody else, and he keeps accusing others, and he's quite incivil in this posts, actually that's why I decided to ignore him. One can make a very good case for him, and report either to admin notice boards, or RfC, or to incivility board. The same thing goes for THOTH. He made many personal attacks.

As far as I know, Lutherian got a few blocking punishments due to selective espionage on part of some users like Khoihoi and Angus... who just report bad things about users opposing genocide claims but ignore incivil posts of Fadix and THOTH. We also have a few anon idiot users who are posting curse words (as if that's going to help countering ARmenian claims), actually, I think it's good to ban those users anyway, no matter which side they support. Deepblue06 23:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

FYI [3] Deepblue06 00:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad that at least some admins have common sense [4] Deepblue06 22:34, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FYI

I've noticed this, the same gang in business [5] Deepblue06 10:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Your support comment at [6] would be helpful. They nominate all articles for deletion which they perceive as against their cause. They want to silence any person that speak differently, it's disgusting. Deepblue06 03:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No Problem

You are welcome. Andycjp June 2006

[edit] Behavioral test

Hi there, neurobio! I've replied on my talk page. --David Iberri (talk) 20:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Contact

You can use the following to e-mail me [7], cheers Deepblue06 23:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Davison

Reverted again,and I will keep reverting the addition of Davison, within 3RR limits, until we get a more recent source that a 20-yo open letter. This tells me that Halacoglu and his collaborators didn't find Davison's Essays in Ottoman and Turkish history, 1774-1923 palatable, which makes me seriously doubt whether it supports the "Turkish Government" position. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

That would only be true if the article said "these people signed an open letter". Since it goes far beyond that, oddly enough, I'll keep removing him. What now ? WP:3RR I think. 0, 1, 2, 3, 4. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


Regarding this edit. I reported you for 3RR violation, but I am not Armenian. Your threat of disruption reported to the Admin who blocked you for 3RR here. The Armenian Genocide article is need of very many improvements, in particular in the "Turkish Reponse" section (which is close to unreadable and presents the case poorly). There are many edits you could make which would be uncontroversial and constructive, especially as regards Halacoglu's work. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Could you please check my edit here to make sure that it keeps the sense of the original argument. If you think it doesn't, can you let me know what's wrong with it. Please do have a look at the Halacoglu section following that if you have time. Thanks. Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] apologies

I thought we were tuesday :-O lutherian 18:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Armenians in the Russian Army

Hopefully we're talking about the same army here but I don't deny the fact that there were Armenians in the Russian army, perhaps more than you listed. The Russian Empire's Caucasian Army must have consisted of God knows, how many different ethnic groups asides from the Armenians: Georgians, Tatars, Chechens, Russians of course, Assyrians, Yezdis, etc etc. The assertion from the Turkish government at that time was that 150,000 Armenians had turned tail en masse, which was not true. I remember Henry Morgenthau also commenting on this and his exact words were that half the Armenians worldwide were living inside the Russian Empire. As a royal subject of the Tsar, all men were by law, liable for military duty, whether they be a Muslim Azeri or a Christian Georgian or a Christian Armenian, it didn't matter. I'm quite sure many Armenians were enthusiastic about joining the Ottoman Military in order to serve their country. Take a look at the Ottoman officer on my page, that's my grandfather's, cousin's father. The picture has been preserved for decades and I was lucky enough to scan and upload it on to here. His brother was a soldier too and he was demoted, sent to be a pack mule, and killed by his own Turkish comrades. The man in the picture, learning of his possible fate, tried to escape but was killed. Theirs too many irregularities, anomalies if you will, that didn't give the correct sense that a standard relocation process was occurring.--MarshallBagramyan 00:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Whois data

The Whois data for anonymous users is accessible from Wikipedia. If you go to User talk:85.98.108.2, which is empty, the wiki software defaults to editing the page and doesn't show the whois links. If you use the full URL, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:85.98.108.2 the Whois shortcuts appears. Whois data is not personal info. As it says on the page, "If you're concerned with privacy, registering also hides your IP address." Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

No problem, but it wasn't supposed to be nice. Anyway, apologies for not fixing up the census stuff yet as discussed. I haven't forgotten. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

I am sorry about that. In case you haven't noticed already, Fadix has left Wikipedia—and for the dumbest reason too! Heck, I've been blocked way more times than he has. Anyways, my concern is that the Armenian Genocide/Ermeni Soykırımı discussion page is turning into a place for people to just insult each other (from both sides). A break might always be a good idea, I think that in addition to having a Greek and Turkish wikipedians board of cooperation we should have one for Turks and Armenians as well... —Khoikhoi 19:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Halacoglu

Thanks for the offer. Citing the books is preferable to web links, web sites come and go but it should always be possible to find the books. There would be no harm in having the links as well though. I see no reason why there should be an edit war over this. If you need any help, please let me know and I'll do what I can. I should be able to check Facts on the relocation of Armenians (1914-1918) next month; the national library here doesn't have it, but the one in Scotland does, and I'll be visiting the next time I am over in Edinburgh. Angus McLellan (Talk) 09:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I will get started with the Halacoglu stuff today. I'll put it in a sandbox so you can check it over before I add it to the article. I'll let you know where it is when I am done with the first draft. Angus McLellan (Talk) 09:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Nothing to do with Halacoglu, just keeping everything in one place. Well, you can take my "prominent" edit as an example of WP:POINT in action; still the people who are left are prominent Ottoman historians, no disputing that. I also disagree with KM's "Denial" subheading: denial and opposition both exist, but they are not the same thing. But I'll leave that for later. The disputed "propaganda anti Turkish site" that Lutherian deleted and which was reverted, is actually complete rubbish, and if were Lutherian, I'd have left it in. Angus McLellan (Talk) 17:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] armenian genocide

hi there. I know that this article has caused serious headache and problem to you in the past. Fadix who was the main trouble maker there left wiki for good. maybe now you can consider coming back and helping us for the sake of Neutrality. see u.neurobio 11:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Greetings. The reason I am not very active on that particular article was not Fadix (I am not intimidated by incivility and other nonsense). Until 23:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC), I intend to stay away from that article as per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Coolcat, Davenbelle and Stereotek
I am not very knowlegable on the issue. But articles pathetic shape is so apperant, it does not require knowlege (there was a propoganda posters at a point).
What I might recomend is arbitration to resolve the current nonsense going on mostly on the talk page.
--Cat out 12:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


Neuro, I dont know how to put copyright tags to the images I uploaded. Could you help me out on this Also I would like to put the images I uploaded to the article. You can find them in our regular discussion page. See you

--Sokrateskerem 17:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

"POV" simply means supporting a certain type of view. The image isn't doing that that I can see; rather, it's demonstrating the holiday created to memorialize the event. --InShaneee 02:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Calm down. If you're hoping to get it removed, you're going to have to take it up on the talk page, though I know the consensus there was to keep it. As to it being 'propaganda', if the holiday was actually celebrated, then it's a fact, and can't be POV. Rather, it should be emphasized as a part of the history. --InShaneee 02:33, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

==Ataturk photograph==--MarshallBagramyan 00:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC) Neuro, you do know that the forged image of Ataturk was quite intentional by Armenians don't you? As in it was made to show what litte indifference Turks make on people's sufferings and the crimes done by the Ottoman Empire? You actually thought that was a photograph that was made to make Ataturk look a bad guy who would pose in front of bodies and that we thought that Turks would never figure it out? Please tell me you did know that, the entire point was to show the world on how careless the Turkish government and people have been on facing their past. I can't imagine why anyone else would not think that was an intentional falsification.--MarshallBagramyan 16:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

well its in very bad taste and there are a lot of ignorent ppl out there who take such things at face value, and how insulting of you to suggest that it was made in good faith to show to the world that Turks are insensitive to the suffering of others! Shows how little you know of the Turkish psyche! lutherian 21:14, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
And likewise, you of the Armenians'. Turning to Neuro, I would say that such an event would be horrific. The important thing is that your "eye withnesses, stories, pictures plus massgraves" are nearly completely unsupported by people who were living and working with the area, whether they were American, French, British, Swedish, Italian, Dutch, German, or Austro-Hungarian didn't matter, they all reported that Armenians were being forcefully deported and executed without discrimination. these people "biased" in Armenians' favor is a cop out, pure and simple. I was watching a documentary where an Armenian currently living in Istanbul whose parents survived the death marches was accosted by a Turkish soldier while his wife was giving birth and exclaiming "We're trying to wipe you from the roots, and you're still breeding!?" in addition to several Turks and Kurds who were told by their parents and grandparents and admitting not only to what they had done but also sorrow. Calling the witnesses "biased" is a simple cop out of avoiding the awful truth. Take a look at that map of Kars on my page and match it up with the actual map of Kars. Notice any similiarities? An exact facsimile that is an artifact in Armenia today of a land where my grandfather grew up for six years until be forced to flee for their lives. Note also the picture of the Ottoman officer's photograph, an Armenian, killed by his own officers along with his brother. My nene, my great-grandmother, lived in Constantinople in 1915. She along with her sister and her father were deported through a death march where they recounted many examples of the extermination of them. She survived, thanks in part to Americans in an orphanage. Too many gaps, too many holes in your country's "version" of what had happend.
Its difficult since you were brought up in Turkey's anti-genocide atmosphere, conditioned to reject all claims while accepting that there were "some deaths". I'm just happy that people in your country are beginning to see through the government's lies and finally realizing that 1915 was anything but an ordinary year. Hopefully you will one day too. Regards, Armen.--MarshallBagramyan 06:24, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
In 1915, the Armenian population was nearly 1.8 million 2 million. By the 1920s, the population dropped to 65,000. Turkish claims of Armenian "brutality" and deaths stemmed AFTER the Armenians were deported and executed by 1916-1917. By then, any Armenians who did anything were members of the Russian Imperial Army, not Turkish citizens who had revolted. Its foolish to think that many of you aren't taught to deny this, or else I wouldn't be here quarelling with you and hundreds of other Turks who all deny it from ever occuring with such tenacity and passion. The French, the Americans, the Swedes, the Dutch, your allies the Germans and Austro-Hungarians, the English, the Italians, the Russians all claim the opposite of what you say happend and so according to them and the Armenian diaspora survivors that was originally shooed away in 1915, and the eyewitnesses of that time say you guys are lying and that revolts, mass desertions have been concotions, inventions to excuse the behavior your forefathers. I have met only 2-3 Turks who have accepted it and they are ones who emigrated from Turkey. I don't believe the story about the Armenian bands or the generous nene. We're deluding ourselves if we think an unarmed, ethnic minority was somehow able to commit a mass slaughter akin to a death toll from a World War II battle. The Kurds confessed and admitted to their crimes and we accepted their apologies. You people are now left in a small little gap that gets smaller and smaller as each year new countries recognize that 1915 was a Genocide.--MarshallBagramyan 00:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I have little reason to believe you and other Turks who make such claims. I forgot if it was Bayar or someone else from the defence ministry who went to the United States and made such claims only to be upstaged when he was unable to answer back the questions in the holes in his story of how supposedly his family suffered the same fate in 1915. You come to Wikipedia with the mindset that there was no genocide and have dodged issues left and right which puncture holes straight through your thesis. So please, excuse my skepticism.--MarshallBagramyan 01:55, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Warning

I dropped him a note (IMHO, it might well have been intended simply as a comparison, and he may not have realized it could be taken as a pretty serious insult). In the future, don't forget you can always politely remind users to be civil if they step out of line. Typically, admins only need to get involved when the two users have exaughted all attempts to work things out on their own. --InShaneee 16:55, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] YGM

You Got Mail ;-) lutherian 21:15, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] photo

Thats a great photo and much closer to the truth! I agree with you 101% on this lutherian 21:19, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] BTW

I did not write about the fact that you have writen the % before the number in one of your posts(and not once I believe). This is often the mistake native Turks make, since the 'yüzde' is written before the number, still the Ottoman influence. So as translating Princek, or in the past, the way you wrote the 'i.' Irrelevent I know, but just consider that no matter what is your etnicity, it is the argumentation you provide that counts, you don't have to pretend. Regards. Fad (ix) 17:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

What is sure is that 24.... and Deepblue are the same person, and I am pretty sure that he is indeed Holdwater, one of the reasons being an update about Dadrian which was still not indexed in the search engines from his site which he brought. Also, some other evidences like the choice of the login, his style etc. I don't expect him accepting it, he refused to accept it while he got his Torque account, even if his login at Amazon pointed to the same place, as well as the fact that Holdwater and Torque were registered indeed during the same period on Wikipedia. Also the IP 24.... was used starting on September 2005, and there are wholes in my test, suhhesting that he is hidding under other aliases or IPs, had it not been of Lutherian and his IPs, maybe I could have made that link at the beginning. Also, both(Holdwater and Deepblue) have the same behavior, Deepblue allegedly left after feeling that administrators are 'anti-Turk' while Torque did the same thing when few administrators started sensing for what he was here. Even Tony during my slanders against Torque when paying a closer look at Torque messages called him not more than a trouble maker. Fad (ix) 20:14, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Believe me, you are in the wrong track. :) You view the diaspora like a huge government, with intellectuals pied to get Turkey down. Unlike what you think, I am 'working' alone. If you go through my contribution here in Wikipedia, you will see that I started also contributing in the Khmer Rouge article in the past regarding the genocide in Cambodia, I left the article only after I realised the editors were there for Capitalist vs Communist flame wars(and politic disgust me). You will also find me (perhaps not much here on Wikipedia), in discussions involving race based intelligence or such nonesense. My dedication is beyond my Armenian identity, which explains why I am much more effective. Also, I have interest in subjects such as Rudolf, Rassinier, Faurisson revisionism. While most Armenian 'patriots' scream 'genocide, genocide, genocide...' I take the time to read the materials writen about the matter, and take time debunking revisionists. Much like, I love debunking Rushton's incorporation of r/K strategy and the history of human life to classify humans in different races, or Lynn uses of IQ tests which were not respecting a common scientific protocole to pictures Black's as less equal than others.

My Turkish? Well yeh, I do understand a little bit, for the % I needed a confirmation, so I emailed a Turkish friend, who confirmed it to me, that person had no time answering me at that time, this is why I was so late confirming that.

Regarding Holdwater, lets say that it is better for now that you keep your feelings and I keep mines, as for age, lets say that I am not that old. :) Fad (ix) 23:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


Where I claimed to be neutral in the talk page? I am neutral only in the articles namespace. Everyone can have opinions about subjects, what counts in the end of the day, is if your changes in the articles namespace is indeed neutral. This is what really matters. Regarding Katchadouni, I hope you will read the entire discussion one more time. No one denies what happened in TransCaucasia, but this has little to do with Anatolia.

As for Charny, the only time I refered to him was the survey he passed about those that signed the advertisement, so I don't understand what you mean.

Regarding Torque, yes! I have gone overboard when dealing with him, and probably I acted like an immature kid, but this is definitly the language that guy understand, I have delt with him in the past, and addressed his material elsewhere, he then decided to dump those materials here.

Regarding incivility, you realise that I don't like you, not because you are a Turk, but because of your behavior, not to say your request of a sourced material removal after I announced my departure, or your message to Coolcat. Or your lack of assume good faith and your attack on my entire contribution here on the article, and this from your first contribution. Also, the whole story about the forged identity. I am not politically correct, at least when I think something about someone, I address it and tell it on his face. You can not expect being treated well by someone when you do everything to not be respected.

As for the population figures, this has been addressed, there are two other articles about this.

BTW, about the Diaspora, what are you expecting the Diaspora to do? They are the children of the survivors who witness that not only the Turkish republic deny it, with the majority of Turks, but the rôle of the victims and agressors is reversed. Fad (ix) 00:38, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Armenian Genocide

No. It's called "denial" because these so-called "historians" as you call them, deny that the Armenian Genocide was a genocide. They do not "oppose" the Genocide that the Turks commited against the Armenians. -- Karl Meier 14:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Can you revert KM's denial term and he also removed the prominent term from the list of scholars, which was the result of consensus with Angus? 24.211.192.250 23:46, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I can only do it after 4:00 (which means tomorrow because i will sleep soon) or it wil be 3 revet rule violation and i will be banned for a day.neurobio 00:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

You don't seem to have more than one revert in the last 24 hours. May be I'm missing something. In any case, no problem. 24.211.192.250 00:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

3 revert rule does not include all changes. Your changes would be counted towards 3 revert rule only if they were reverting the article to a previous version. In other words, edits of other nature are not counted. You can read the exact rule here [8]. 24.211.192.250 00:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I find that some of the bodies listed in the international recognition of Armenian genocide are not true (league for human rights, and the UN sub-commission). I changed them. I know that they will be reverted, but this is something that needs to be corrected. 24.211.192.250 03:43, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you make a full revert, that's more effective? Karl inserted lots of ungrounded POV, you only fixed a few of them 24.211.192.250 23:03, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

You can also remove fact tags in the opposition paragraph because there's already a reference included at the end of the paragraph. 24.211.192.250 23:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

To revert the article to a previous version, you click that version from the history, and click edit this page (you'll see a warning that you're editing an old version) and click save, in your revision summary make sure you include "rv". You can experiment this in your talk page or user page.

This time if you remove the fact tags that'll be it, there's no point for fighting the photos, (which is stupid is this a photo gallery, or what? :) ) 24.211.192.250 23:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

If no one else complains. But I still don't see any evidence that says they are prominent. If you could link me some that would help. John Smith's 23:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Have you noticed that one of the children in the recent AG photo is circumsized? That's quite fishy 24.211.192.250 00:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

With regard to circumsicion, I need this info confirmed from another source.

Probably the photo is well documented. But we have to take Armin Wegner's word to believe that these corpses do indeed belong to Armenians. On a seperate note, children dying due to starvation shows nothing, at that time, there were also many Turkish and Kurdish children were dying due to starvation. 24.211.192.250 00:28, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Jews get circumsized, but Orthodox Christians normally don't [9]. However, it's difficult to rule out some of them who might choose to do it on their own, who knows. 24.211.192.250 22:40, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

After some digging, I found out that some Armenians indeed get circumsized 24.211.192.250 22:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll be gone until August, take care 24.211.192.250 10:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Can you keep an eye on [10]? Karl Meier is essentially attempting to delete it through directing it to the PKK article. 24.211.192.250 10:33, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at this [11], guess who's there voting24.211.192.250 00:37, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Quote comment

just a question. the quote "You've persecuted us for generations... And now you beg us to aid you? We will do what we must... But we do it for Aiur, not you!". is it from a Ursula Leguen book or am I mistaken.neurobio 00:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It is from Zeratul of StarCraft. :) --Cat out 00:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
oh yea now I remember. that ghostly character.:)neurobio 00:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Dark Templar... :) --Cat out 00:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures and Arabic

Hi Neurobio. I saw your request at Mustapha's talk page. According to Mustapha's contribs, he seems to be busy lately. Could you please send them to me? Cheers -- Szvest 19:23, 8 July 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up™

[edit] Three-Revert Rule

You are in danger of violating the three-revert rule on Armenian Genocide. Please cease further reverts or you may be blocked from further editing. Stifle (talk) 21:48, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Er?

I don't understand what you mean. I just checked your contributions, and the only thing I have seen that is a candidate on what might be your point is your reference to me on your talkpage.

First, the page is an evidence page, not a 'prove' page. I evidence and I do not prove nor claim anything.

Second, no I don't follow you, so yes indeed you are talking behind my back.

Thirdly, Torque always denied being Holdwater, while he IP pointed to New-York, where Holdwater lived, used the same expressions, the same login as used on Amazon, the same references, the same style and a number of fetish words, without including the registration of the login Holdwater here on Wikipedia with one contribution. So, I don't expect Holdwater to admit being him ever, while he never admitted in the obvious situation.

Forthly, Both one of the IPs used by Deepblue06 and 24...., point to different locations, while the merging shows a correlation, which again is suspicious.

Fift, I don't see how well you are placed to judge me in anyway or call me obsessed, when you have claimed having read 4 mb of materials, as well as having admitbly lied all along and requested to be trusted again and now are contributing as if nothing happened.

Finally, It appears that you are the one talking about me while I almost forgot of your existance. Fad (ix) 02:41, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't buy any of the crap you have said. You can try selling your sausage, but your 'I have lost my ancestors' sell them elsewhere. Both sides of my family were survivors, in Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Armenia etc. orphanages were build and run specifically for those like my grandparents who were orphaned. You will hardly find any from the Diaspora who doesn't have the same story. Between both of us, you were the one having continuisly lied and this after having told you to stop doing so, and now you are comming up with just as much of a crap to sell here in Wikipedia.
And yes! I feel honest of myself, I have been consistant and said the truth all along, I might have gone overboard few times, but honesty, I know what it means. And I have never ever tried to accuse an entire nation, the only time I have played this cheap game was when Torque AKA Holdwater has attempted to equal the word Armenian as a word of the underworld even associating them with the NAZI or such crap. Where have you seen me marauding in Turkish related articles by slandering Turks. Afteral, you have your contribution nearly limited to an article which the center topic is indeed the Armenians. If you expect to sell your sausage to any Armenians by telling how Armenians have killed your encestors, you can't expect any of them to feel sorry about them, when you are denying the event in which 2/3 of every Diasporan Armenian encestors have perished.
I am ignoring you, so do the same. Fad (ix) 04:37, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
One more thing, my internet activities are none of your business, had I wanted to, I would have used another pseudonym and be done with it. But I have been honest all along, a quality which you lack of. Fad (ix) 04:39, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
It might also interest you that Cool_Cat, with whom you are interaccting lately, has accused Thoth, Me, Raffi, Karl, Davenbelle, John Smith's etc. to all be socks and this is the point of the iceberg, as he has accused a countless numbers of peoples to be the same socks. A point of interest maybe. Oh and, don't worry about my mental state, I have never been diagnosed with any mental conditions, and the strongest psychotropic drug I have ever consumed is caffeine next to the amino acide Taurine. Fad (ix) 04:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] arbcom

Mabe it will help to know that Karl Meier was revert waring in armenian genocide article too. he came out of no where started to change titles of article (opposition to denial, obvious POV). I have warned him 3 times (the last one was harsh) saying that there is consensus on that and he must comment in talk page if he wants change. it did not help.neurobio 02:11, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

You can cite the revert waring on the Arbcom evidence page (actualy I might for you). --Cat out 12:10, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
please do it then. I dont want to get involved in arbcom my self.neurobio 12:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I did, citing evidence is not involvement. --Cat out 12:57, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] User talk:Fadix

Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. --Cat out 12:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not planning to block either of you unless you keep up this incivility, like talking about Fadix's 'aura' as you were. Both of you need to stop talking about the other. Completely. As I told him, if you really want the article content issues resolved, try focusing on them instead of each other. --InShaneee 00:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Regarding comments such as this and this: You have been blocked for 24 hours for personal attacks and other disruptive incivility. --InShaneee 18:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

{{unblock}} there is no personal attack in the first one. because of the double sideed interpretation of the issue it is not an attack to ask do you belive that. the second one is directed to a person who thinks the same way as I do. So it is not a comment or attack on his contributions on the article rather it is a kind of note that shows I understand what he deals with. read it again and see "the same to you too" (as a massage that says I hope god will give you patience) Anyway Suit your self.neurobio 20:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I've reviewed this block and it seems appropriate to me. Technically, your comments may not be personal attacks but they certainly display incivility and you were warned about that. If I may offer some friendly advice as an outsider: you seem to be spending a lot of time debating the appropriate way to view controversial issues. Honestly, that kind of thing gets us nowhere and can never really be resolved by discussion. Focus instead on (1) the articles and (2) what other sources have done... ultimately, that's how WP has to work anyway. Mangojuicetalk 15:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Selam

you're back! Lets talk! lutherian 05:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Response

Some people care...
Some people care...

Yeah, I am Jewish...how did you know? Yes, I do believe there is a resemblance—besides the genocidal factor—both Armenians and Jews were deported, for example. I don't think anyone denys that there were deportations involved. —Khoikhoi 21:27, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I guessed :p. you know there is no single offical document found in Ottoman archives that shows an order of exterminatio or killings. there is no vansee meeting like that germans did. the jews were not fighting in an enemy army. the jews were not after authonomy and so on. I guess you are mistaking an "ethnic clensing" (in the worst case. i dont fully accept that definition either) with a genocide. can I send you some articles showing the position of Turkish jews. maybe they are more reliable for you?neurobio 21:34, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, we must not forget all the accounts—by both Armenians and foreigners. And what about this article from the NY Times? It talks about about Turks who heard from their parents and grandparents about the massacres. I'm not so sure if a people rebelling is an excuse for what happened to them (whether it was genocide or not). I'd like to see the articles, however. —Khoikhoi 21:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the fact that Turks died stops the fact that there wasn't a genocide. Is it contradictory? I think it would help if the websites that showed the Turkish view weren't filled with racism and hatred: [12], [13], [14]. I understand your views, and neither of us will be able to convice each other. The thing that I don't understand, is that people think the Armenians just "made it up" (compare to Holocaust denial). Why would anyone make up such a thing? The only simple answer I can come up with is that they didn't. —Khoikhoi 22:08, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Neurobio, I know what the Turkish view on the events are. I don't think the fact that there aren't any documents proves that there was no genocide. Besides, didn't the Turkish government acknowledge it for a short time after WWI? How sure are you that there wasn't a genoicde? 99%? 100%? 110%? I don't understand how we have so many eyewitness accounts that prove otherwise, that there was indeed a systematic attempt to elimate the Armenian population of Anatolia. —Khoikhoi 23:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] check your gmail

I will try to find time. —Khoikhoi 05:38, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Arrghhh! I completely forgot! I've been busy in real life recently (I'll check my email right now). Kolay gelsin. —Khoikhoi 04:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Van

Hi I thought you were staying away from armenian genocide article. you see the shape of the article they have invended a Teskilati mahsusa as the SS and a Nazi style execution command office. you know what I got a ban because of my last message to you? I thought we were thinking the same way. The Van rebelion was months before deportation orders. What ever. I am really fed up.neurobio 22:09, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry 4 any problems you have. You are free to add any information with citation. IF you see a problem anywhere, PLEASE fix it with correct citation. I advise you to do so, instead of being fed up. The problem (ban) that you mention is not my initiation. ALSO I really did not touch (CONTENT) AG page. I just tried to prevent replication (fork), but did not work. To repeat: I'm not doing any editing on that page, just to prevented being replicated. --OttomanReference 23:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ah

Hmm, it's about the French Armenian Legion, right? Very interesting, thanks man. BTW, can you tell me real quickly, what's the difference between Misis and Misis Köprüsü? Thanks. —Khoikhoi 01:53, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. One more question: what's the difference between an Irmak, Nehri, Çay, and Çayi? —Khoikhoi 02:30, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks again. —Khoikhoi 02:34, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Şahin.jpg

Is http://www.mihenk.gr/ the source you're referring to? I'm particularly cautious about the pic as Echinos is a town inhabited not by Turks, but by Pomaks (Muslim Bulgarians). The Muslim minority of Greece includes both groups, and the self-identification of the Pomaks is often troublesome. In order to have the photo in the article I'd like us to have a neutral third-party source, not a Turkish magazine. Also, the photo's license is wrong, the rights over it are most certainly not released. Regards, Todor→Bozhinov 16:49, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

(to neuro) Here was your problem (it was very minor). For closing the ref, instead of using </ref> you used <ref> (the opening). Refs usually go like this.
My grandmother likes pizza.<ref>Smith, John. A study of grandmothers, 1999.</ref>
Cheers. —Khoikhoi 04:59, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I admit I didn't read them. :-( Thank you for your kind words. I am afraid, however, that I'm not convinced that the events were not a genocide. I am not convinced because I don't see how most historians would "fall into the trap" of the Armenians. I am not convinced because I don't believe they just made it up. Why would they? It's just too similar to Holocaust denial. Some people think my people invented the Holocaust for a variety of reasons. Ok, I admit that both the Armenian POV and Turkish POV can be equally biased, but to say that the Armenian POV is a mere fiction does not seem probable to me. It just doens't. I don't deny that Turks died, but I also don't deny that there was a genocide. Halil Berktay, for example, supports the genocide thesis, but also said that "everybody has a story - Turks, Bulgarians, Greeks, Armenians, everybody". He also said that "in each of these stories, those who tell them are always in the role of victims" Also Neurobio, I can mention a lot of Turkish historians who support the thesis, but I don't think you can find me any Armenian historians who oppose it. I hope there are no hard feelings just because we disagree on something. Hoşçakal. —Khoikhoi 02:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but many of these historians have close ties with Turkey. McCarthy, for example, spent many years there and his wife is Turkish. I believe Lewis was in Turkey for awhile as well. It's not just like these guys are totally unbiased on the issue, in the same way that George Horton can't claim total impartiality (his wife was Greek). Also keep in mind how Taner Akçam is considered "pro-Armenian" by most Turks. I don't think the Ottoman Archives are the only factor in determining what happened, either. The middle ground seems to me that there were groups of Armenian rebels who aligned themselves with the Russians, and because of this, the Young Turks took out virtually the entire population in essence. I saw this debate on PBS about the genocide, and what was interesting was that the Turkish prof. simply thought it was not worth discussing even and felt it was meant to denigrate the Turks, while the other Turkish prof. was simply saying that everything in Turkey's past should be talked about as all nations have good and 'bad' events etc. —Khoikhoi 03:55, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I just was your user page.. Dogru, bazen Bakirkoy gibi bura :)) But it is a vicious cycle, Wiki'nin interlinkleri Google ratinglerini yukseltigi için populer oluyor, birilerinin de gelip temizlik yapmasi gerekiyor.. :)) Kolay gelsin..Baristarim 06:25, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Clevelander beat me to it. —Khoikhoi 22:25, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Armenian_legion.jpg

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[edit] Re: an armenian writer rejecting Genocide

Interesting. One must note, however, that he said "at that time people was exiled but not massacred"...I think that's going a bit to far... I looked up this guy and apparently he's an Armenian Turk (the correct spelling is "Dabağyan"), and even denies the existence of an Armenian issue. He seems to be a Turkish nationalist. —Khoikhoi 22:47, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. —Khoikhoi 00:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You must be referring to...

...Tekleni? I dont even want to say what I think about this guy! lutherian 06:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Masallah

It's funny how you try to prove your point by showing a youtube video — I'll send you the links of peoples videos that is proper racist and comments on Kurds that are just stupid and argue that that is the overall mentality of the Turks against the Kurds but its pointless those videos prove nothing - even though the majority of Turks want Kurds to be all burned together like the jews in germany, and you know that well. You are just a victim of a propaganda that has spread all around the country that wants the Kurds and Kurdish to be forbidden. You and the majority in Turkey is continuing to live with a military mind and you deny this. It's also very funny you trying to show Nazim as a Turks nationalist! Please, the guy was a communist and hated nationalists. Finally just so that you feed you brain a little, USA's Iraq invasion has helped the Kurds in north because Saddam did oppressed Kurds equally to the Turksih government, Al-Anfal Campaign but this doesn't mean thatevery single Kurd supports the USA and UK's foreign policies - before prejudice have a look at my userboxes see how as a British citizen I oppose the war in Iraq and demand the withdrawal of the army and an end to the occupation in Iraq immediately. The truth of the matter USA or Turkey or Saddam cares not about those people and this is historically proven many times. Why don't you talk about this - http://www.kurdmedia.com/articles.asp?id=13491 - about the millions of Kurds who are killed by the Turks through out the 20th century. Masallah that. Ozgur Gerilla 12:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image tagging for Image:Handelsblat.jpg

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[edit] Image tagging for Image:Armenians syracuse.JPG

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[edit] wikEd

The wikEdlogo

Hi, I have seen that you are using the Cacycle editor extension. This program is no longer actively maintained in favor of its much more powerful successor wikEd.

wikEd has all the functionality of the old editor plus: • syntax highlighting • nifty image buttons • more fixing buttons • paste formatted text from Word or web pages • convert the formatted text into wikicode • adjust the font size • and much, much more.

Switching to wikEd is easy, check the detailed installation description on its project homepage. Often it is as simple as changing every occurrence of editor.js into wikEd.js on your User:YourUsername/monobook.js page.

Cacycle 22:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TAT

Hi! Well, if you look at some of the things holdwater says, you can just see his hatred towards Armenians in the text, i.e. "Many Armenians have clung to the tragic events of so long ago as a form of ethnic identity, and have considered it their duty to perpetuate this myth, with little regard for facts... at the same time breeding hatred among their young". Also, try comparing it to this... Notice a resemblance? Khoikhoi 03:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Very

I just wanted to know why you kept mentioning my name in the edit summary, that's all. As Nazim Hikmet said, "the most beautiful words ever spoken, I have not yet said to you." Khoikhoi 05:50, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] License tagging for Image:Fort Wayne.jpg

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[edit] Re: recent problem

Ok, I know how you feel. I'm sorry if that edit summary offended you, that wasn't my intention at all. It was just that the anon changed "accepeted" to "claimed", which doesn't really reflect the opinion of most historians. Anyways, please let me know if Clevelander removes people's valid comments—he shouldn't be doing that. Whlie I watch the changes made to the article, I generally ignore what's going on at the talk page. Same goes for Fadix, I saw where he called you a "parasite", which is totally unacceptable. Just leave a note on my talk page if anyone makes any more personal attacks. Another admin somewhat active on the article is Aecis. BTW, I'm sure you've noticed by now that I restored your comments on the talk page. Khoikhoi 02:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Archive of Newspapers

Thanks for your interest; Instead of sending them to me; the best approach would be You read them, understand them, sort out the information (eliminate the propaganda) and Afther that; add that information (dates, facts, numbers) to the related article. If the event or issue does not have an article, you can create it. Example: Your WP article was nice to prove that (may be not the size; 20,000) but the reality of volunteer units. To prevent the translation issues, you can download the image of the reference and link it to the article such that (see image detail for explanation) My approach is to present information "as clear as possible" so that readers can build their own perception. No one needs my Ideas/Summaries; so lets turn this encyclopedia into a place people can find facts rather other peoples perceptions and conclusions. Hope this is helpful. THANKS.--OttomanReference 23:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Note: you need to read sourcing the public domain images. Also you do not have to download the full page image, just clip it and give appropriate date; source; etc which will prevent people claiming is not sourced. Fill the source of this image image detail. THANKS--OttomanReference 23:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Atatürk

Tesekkurler, zaten Rauf Orbay koltuk hırsı ile vatanını satabilecek bir haindir (mondros'u imzalaması, amerikan mandasını savunması, meclis başkanlığında Atatürk'e karşı çıkması, her türlü muhalefeti arkasında toplaması -şeriatçi, mandacı vs.- ile hainliğini kanıtlanır.) Onun için kimse bana Rauf Orbay'ı kanıt göstererek gelmesin. Belgeler elime geçer geçmez arkadaşa aktaracağım, ingilizcesi de bu konuda bilgisi de benden iyidir, beraber inceleyip Armenian genocide tartışma sayfasına yazacağız. Sana kolay gelsin. Caglarkoca 00:29, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

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