Talk:Neo-confederate

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[edit] Why "Confederate" with a small c?

Why is this article titled "Neo-confederate" with a small c? Does the title not refer to the Confederates, as in the Confederate States of America? It is a proper noun and should therefore be capitalized. The page should be at Neo-Confederate. For instance, see Neo-Nazi. (Note that I am not necessarily comparing Neo-Confederates to Neo-Nazis, but it is the most direct structural parallel that comes to me at this time.) 71.105.74.192 00:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd concur, yes. —Nightstallion (?) 11:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I had the same question. Capitalization will make it clearer. -- Alarob 04:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why the blanket reversion and no comment?

Why the blanket reversion? Could I see some justification for it? Or is it just an attempt to foist a single political view onto Wikipedia?Dogface 20:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neo-Nazi

I deleted the line about the usage of the term neo-confederate implying association with neo-nazis, because there is no evidence anywhere to back this up. Neo- is a prefix used in several other forms besides for neo-nazi. D-rew 01:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Does the term "neo-natal" compare babies to Nazis?Verklempt 02:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article in essence, is another subpage of the SPLC website

This article does not conform to Wiki standards. WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR, etc. It is nothing more than a SPLC propaganda piece.
--Fix Bayonets! 21:37, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

This allegation is absurd.Verklempt 14:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
WP:3RR Warning issued to User:Verklempt--Fix Bayonets! 15:05, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Are you unable or unwilling to make a rational argument for your case?Verklempt 15:29, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Please see WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR. This article does not conform to the above. Suppose an article were to appear on Wikipedia under the title: "neo-Zionist," in which virtually everyone in the Jewish community was accused of being a racist, or race-baiter, or engaging in some other nefarious conduct in furtherance of a unified neo-Zionist goal of overthrowing the government of the United States in favor of a Zionist Occupation Government. And further suppose that in “support” of such article, were (primarily) links and references to Stormfront articles. Is it your contention that such an article would be balanced and conform to WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR? --Fix Bayonets! 15:33, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Your analogy is off the wall. The WP article does not accuse anyone of anything. It does report criticisms of various groups, and the groups' own positions. It cites a variety of sources. I don't see any merit in your complaint or your edits.Pokey5945 16:59, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Specific Issues

  • User "Paul" is correct. His comment of 15:54, 2 September 2005 (UTC) astutely points out that the article, as a whole, is "a hodgepodge of accusations and other speculation." There should be some attempt at WP:NPOV, balance, and "counter-point."

  • User "IP Address" is correct. His/her edit of 15:24, 21 July 2006 correctly points out that "[t]he intended lingual association of 'neo-' and 'confederate', is with 'Neo-Nazi' and meant to align their stigmas as somehow related." That statement should be placed back into the article.

  • User "Dogface" is correct. His edit of 04:22, 3 September 2006 was correct to delete the "Liberty Advocate" paragraph-- L.Adv. looks like a group of one member. The "Liberty Advocate" material should be (again) deleted.

  • It should be stated clearly in the article that the "sources" for the very existence of a so-called neo-Confederate "movement" stem from a small number of individuals/groups on the political left (left-of-center). In other words, the article is written from the perspective that IT IS AN ESTABLISHED FACT that such a so-called "movement" exists, and that such "movement" is of "significance," numerically speaking.

  • It should be stated clearly in the article that most of the critics of the UDC and SCV stem from a small number of individuals/groups on the political left (left-of-center). Furthermore, it should be stated that the Southern Poverty Law Center is described as a "controversial liberal organization" by the Washington Post and as controversial and sometimes "misleading" by Harper's Magazine. Edsall, Thomas B. “Conservative Group Accused Of Ties to White Supremacists.” Washington Post, December 19, 1998, p. A08 ("The Southern Poverty Law Center [is] a controversial, liberal organization that tracks conservative militia and "patriotic" organizations");
    Silverstein, Ken. “The Church of Morris Dees: How the Southern Poverty Law Center profits from intolerance.” Harper's Magazine, November 2000. p._.

  • The article leaves one with the impression that only racists believe that the secession of the Southern States was justified. That is not correct. It should be stated that other eminent scholars of constitutional law and history have defended the constituionality of secession.

  • It should be stated in the article that the UDC and SCV declare themselves to be apolitical.[1][2]

  • For the sake of balance, it should be stated that Presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush have tendered letters of commendation to the SCV and the UDC.Clinton, Bill. "Letter of June 21, 1994 from Bill Clinton." UDC Magazine, Sept. 1994: p. 9. Bush, George W. "Letter of Commendation." Confederate Veteran, June, 1996: p.6.

  • While the above issues are not the only ones which should be addressed, they should serve as a good start.

--Fix Bayonets! 08:48, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

1)The anonymous complaint from a year ago is out of date given subsequent editing. 2) The "neo-Nazi" line of argument is absurd and unfounded. Let's see some evidence for that whopper. 3) The movement exists both in the minds of its critics, and in the minds of movement activists themselves. The numerical significance of the movement is established by the movement's own rhetoric (see SCV and LoS memberships claims). 4) I agree that criticism should be contextualized, but not by using sarcastic, distancing adjectives such as "so-called", which introduce POV. 5) I disagree that the article "leaves the impression" re racism and secession. It never links the two concepts at all. 6) I agree that the stated objectives of the groups mentioned should be included, and juxtaposed with the critics' counter-claims. 7) The letters from Presidents are trivial factoids that do not illuminate anything significant about their recipients other than that the President was courting their votes. There is no good reason to include them. If we do include them, it rather shoots down the organization's claim to be apolitical, doesn't it?Verklempt 17:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

My thoughts:

  1. The alleged lingual link between "neo-Nazi" and "neo-Confederate", if it is to be in the article, must be referenced to a reliable source. "Neo" has a clear meaning aside from its association with "neo-Nazi" (thus terms like neoliberal and neoconservative are in common use), so it seems that saying the prefix is being used as a way to associate these people with neo-Nazis is a somewhat dubious claim, though I'm not discounting it as a possibility. In other words, we cannot merely assert that there is such a link without reference because there are rational reasons to doubt its validity.
  2. "Liberty Advocate" does not appear to be remarkably notable and does not seem to meet reliable source guidelines. If no one can prove to the contrary, it should probably be removed from this article.
  3. It is POV to say that the sources for the existence of the neo-confederate movement come from a small number of sources on the political left. A google search for the term comes up with about 100,000 hits. I'm not opposed to describing the proponents of the term as generally left of center, but we would have to be omniscient (or have a lot of time and patience) to say with certainty that it's really only coming from a small number of sources.
  4. Regarding the SPLC, you know my thoughts on that from the SCV talk page. I'll reproduce them here for everyone else's perusal, "The article already mentions that the critics are on the left, no reason to repeat that claim with a mention that the SPLC is "liberal." If the SPLC is going to be described as "controversial", the article must say exactly who is saying it is controversial. It's not an objective fact that it is controversial, it is a fact that person X has described it as controversial. But this article isn't about the SPLC, and I think such criticism of the SPLC belongs in the SPLC article."
  5. Generally, this article suffers from some of the same back-and-forth problems that the SCV article was facing for awhile. In other words, it seems to be bouncing between versions that are slanted against the term and versions that are biased in favor of it (well, as much as one can be "for" or "against" a word, anyway). Actually, even the version of the article that is purportedly biased in favor of the term's use contains some subsections that are written from a POV that is slanted against the term's use. Perhaps this article needs to be reorganized or rewritten entirely. I'll mark it with a cleanup tag for now. · j e r s y k o talk · 17:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea where to start on this article. Is there an article about US secession ideas on Wikipedia? I know New England thought about it three times before the War of Northern Aggression. South Carolina thought about it while Andy jackson was in office. I know some talked about it after Kerry got his butt handed to him in 2004. Heck, West Virginia succeeded at it in 1863 from Virginia, but that's not quite the same thing.--Bedford 03:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The neo-Confederate movement combines secessionist ideology with Lost Cause historical revisionism. It is best conceptualized as an ethnic nationalist movement. There are heavy helpings of unabashed white supremacy laced through, even though most of the orgs attempt to distance themselves from overt displays of racism in their official pronouncements.Verklempt 14:54, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ed Sebesta

Is this person so notable/credible that someone can be labelled a "neo-Confederate" upon his sayso alone to the point that this becomes encyclopedic? After all, pretty much anyone can alledge anything about anyone else. It has been alledged, for example, that Bill Clinton was secretly a Communist, that Richard Nixon was secretly Catholic, that certain Popes were actually Freemasons, and all kinds of other things, but that does not automatically make such allegations encyclopedic. I think that we should be more interested in who is a self-identifed neo-Confederate, just as Wikipedia tends to list as being gay self-identifed gays, not purportedly gay people, and would only consider allowing someone else to be listed as gay with several credible outside sources, not just one very partisan and self-serving source. We wouldn't let Fred Phelps alone determine who was or was not gay, and we shouldn't let Sebesta alone who is a neo-Confederate, even with the annotation that he is the sole source. Rlquall 22:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you have an important point here. However, the Southern Independence Party rejects the label, according to the article. But if the SIP is not neo-C, then the term has no meaning, and this WP article should be deleted. Sebesta's ID on this particular group should be self-evident, regardless of his own credentials. In this case, going by the group's self-ID alone would lead to a wrong conclusion. Eugene Genovese was a member of the LoS. If LoS members are not neo-C, then who is?Verklempt 00:06, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I want to add that Sebesta has published on the neo-C movement in peer-reviewed scholarly journals. He is rather more than a self-appointed watchdog--he is also an independent scholar whose work has been validated by the research community.Verklempt 00:09, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
As I recall, the list of alleged Neo-Confederates was added by an editor seeking to disparage the use of the term. I believe the idea was to show how ridiculous some of the allegations are. OTOH, I think is is reasonable to uses sources to indicate, in an NPOV manner, how the term is used and who is regarded a part of the movement. Sebesta's website has been altered, so some of these references may not even work anymore. Perhaps we should trim the list to those entries with two or more sources. -Will Beback 18:26, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
The two-source rule is a good idea, but there may be one-source examples that should remain. If there is a one-source example that seems like it belongs, specify both the source and the rationale for inclusion.Verklempt 01:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slur

This article should mention how the word is seen as an offensive slur to most people. I have seen where men have retaliated by calling people Neo-Yankees as a comeback. Which would prove its offensiveness.

"Most people" have never even heard the term, much less do they know what it means or to whom it refers. Any random word can be used as an insult. I think this one has a long way to go before it falls into that category. It is nearly always used to describe a particular nationalist ideology and movement.Verklempt 02:40, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

No, It was originally invented to compare Nazis to Confederates, which have nothing in common. That is why people see this as an insult. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Virginia Confederate (talk • contribs).

Ahh, yes, just like neoliberal and neoconservative are meant to evoke Nazis too, right? Neo- is a prefix in common English use. Cite reliable sources which demonstrate your claims, please. I've place a prod tag on the Neo-Yankee article you just recreated, and will afd it if you remove the tag. Just compare google hits for the terms "neo yankee" and "neo confederate" and I believe no more discussion will be necessary. · j e r s y k o talk · 20:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
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