User talk:NCdave

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[edit] Welcome to the Wikipedia

Welcome, newcomer!

Here are some useful tips to ease you into the Wikipedia experience:


Also, here are some odds and ends that I find useful from time to time:

Feel free to ask me anything the links and talk pages don't answer. You can most easily reach me by posting on my talk page.

You can sign your name on any page by typing 4 tildes, likes this: ~~~~.

Best of luck, and have fun!

ClockworkSoul 06:12, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 3 revert rule

You have broken the 3 revert rule. Any further breaches will result in a block. If you find yourself in a simular situation in future the wikipedia disspute resolution process may prove useful.Geni 05:52, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Terri Schiavo Page

Dave,

I am writing you this message in order to try to find some common ground on the Terri Schiavo affair. I respect that you have your point of view, and I respect and commend you for being so dedicated and committed to what you believe to be right. At the same time, I would like to apologise for perhaps saying a few harsh things which I might not have said had I had time to think about them properly first.

However, your recent changes to the article perplex me, and make me question whether you are indeed interested in writing a quality encyclopaedia, as you claim, or whether you just want to put forward a particular point of view. My complaints can be boiled down to:

  • A complete lack of regard for WikiStyle conventions. Your contributions look messy, straggled, and plain ugly. This particularly applies to the "External Links" section, which looks like a dog's breakfast after you've finished with it, covered in seemingly random links, chunks of italicised text, and grammatical abuse.
  • A refusal to accept community consensus with regards to bias. If you read the talk page, there is clear acceptance that the article has too much of a "pro-life" slant, and that slant has no place within an encyclopaedia. Yet, you continue to rail against this, filling the article with great masses of the Schindler family's claims, none of which have been backed up or proven.
  • I find your editing fo the Wikiquette page interesting. Might I ask with whom you conferred on the matter, before stating that talk pages are a place for deciding truth or falsehood, and altering longstanding Wikipolicy thusly? I don't doubt that this was a widely discussed consensus move, but I would be in your debt if you could point me towards the discussion.

That's all for now. I hope that we can get along and ensure that the Terri Schiavo article is a quality article without any significant POV.

Lankiveil 07:47, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC).

Sorry about the style issues -- I have no sense of style. The "grammatical abuse" is in your imagination, though.

When "community consensus with regards to bias" is that the article should be a Felos propaganda piece, riddled with false statements and blatant bias, then you are correct, I refuse to accept it.

When I see something that is poorly written or ambiguous, I try to help out by fixing it. My Wikequette edit was just that, as you can see: a clarification of ambiguity, in conformance with the obviously intended original meaning. You're welcome. NCdave 20:53, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

  • Oh well, she's dead now. Go pray or something, just as long as you stop fagging up wikipedia. Yes I know this is a blatant personal attack, but I don't care because you have contributed nothing to this online encyclopedia. I cannot continue civil discussion with an individual such as yourself. Your blatant hypocrisy under the pretense of neutrality makes something inside me object, and I'm almost completely amoral. You are worse than a troll; at least trolls don't honestly believe the bullshit they spew. You reported TCOL for the 3RR violation only because he threatened to do the same to you. You make up facts and cite spurious sources such as the National Review or random "Save Terri" sites, then claim they are infallible mountains of truth. Your behavior has been nothing but immature, ignorant, and close-minded. In conclusion, go fuck yourself. AngryParsley 15:45, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • Thank you for summing up what everybody was thinking. Personally I think you went easy on him. --Teknic 16:13, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
      • I think you could have gone a little more extreme on him. Regardless, you've won a free internet. Thanks for summing up our feelings. Look at it this way, Dave. You still got hope hanging on a big toe. Ghost Freeman 16:20, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
        • Dave obviously has strong and passionate feelings about this matter. Despite the fact that he's gotten a lot of "rough treatment" and dished some of it out himself, for the most part he's been a

constructive editor and has contributed some interesting information along the way. I may take issue with some of what he posts, but I do admire his tenacity. Wjbean 03:22, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)

[edit] Supporting edits

Hi Dave, I noticed that you've been making some edits to articles (such as Wikipedia:Wikiquette) to support your arguments on the Terri Schiavo talk page... It's always great to see more people getting involed in the wikipedia process, but it isn't approiate to go making edits just to support your position in an a debate, or at least it's not a great idea to go redefining chunks of wikipedia when you're a fairly new user involved in a hotly contested issue. ... It just doesn't give people the right impression of your intentions. I've reverted the changes that I thought were troublesome.Gmaxwell 09:40, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sheesh. Gmaxwell, you know perfectly well that my edit was merely a clarification of an ambiguity, not a change of the intended meaning. The "before" uses the words "right and wrong" which can be interpreted in two ways: as value judgements (which was the intended meaning), and as synonyms for "true and false" (which was an obviously unintended interpretation). I edited it to make clear which meaning was intended, as you can see. NCdave 20:43, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

BTW, here's an up to date link to NCdave's Wikiquette edits. NCdave 20:55, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Harassment

Thanks, Cvaneg, for reverting 66.52.193.147's "call dave at work, here's the number" addition to my user profile. That explains why I got a harrassing anonymous phone call at work today (well, yesterday, now). (I also got a similar email.) This is the work of one of the partisans for Michael Schiavo, who don't like what I have to say on the Talk:Terri_Schiavo page. Sweet folks, eh? Unfortunately, he also put it in the history comments, which is unremovable. NCdave 09:30, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Someone vandalized your user page and I rolled it back for you. Mike H 05:28, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

  • Vandalism is such a loaded term. I prefer to call what I did embellishment. --AStanhope 05:33, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • Whatever you call it, it was not your place to edit his user page with what you edited. Mike H 05:38, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
  • Your right, comedy is much more important than accuracy. I like NCdave's original page. Fucking hilarious. Teknic 15:42, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Schiavo comment on my talk page

I already heard most of your comments from legitimate news sources, thanks for the input. Your comments, mostly insinuation and hypotheticals, were much too wordy so I really didn't read it word for word. Regardless of what type of bastard Michael Schiavo was, he was Terry's bastard, to her great fortune. I pray to God that my husband takes care of me in the same fashion as Terry, has the courage that maybe my parents wouldn't, if I am ever in her situation. Game over baby.... If I were a vegetable, I would be glad my husband would get on with his life and have many kids with any woman he wanted in my stead. If my life was over, his shouldn't be. Revmachine21 13:36, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • She's right! --AStanhope 21:29, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Revmachine21, do you hope that if you are disabled your husband will kill your pets so that he will not be encumbered by responsibility for caring for them when he wants to move in with his girlfriend? NCdave 04:53, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Comfort and Consciousness

I noticed that on the talk page of Terri Schiavo you seem to think that the fact that Schiavo was given painkillers is proof that Terri really wasn't in a persistent vegetative state. I think you are missing something very important here.

Let me restate your argument:

  1. The hospice said Terri was in a PVS
  2. People in a PVS don't feel pain
  3. Therefore, rationally, Terri should not have been given painkillers if what the hospice said was true.
  4. Therefore, the hospice is lying.

But statement four needs another qualifier: "If the hospice is perfectly rational, then the hospice is lying." And that qualifier is obviously not true. Doctors and nurses are people, not robots. Most people (including myself) can't help but feel empathy for other humans. That means that people will instinctively perceive another human in a situation that would be uncomfortable to themself as "uncomfortable", "in pain", "suffering".

One thing to note is that many of the visible responses to pain are reflexive. So someone can react to pain without being aware of it. (Even amoebas are capable of reacting to stimuli, and only panpsychists would claim that microscopic organisms are conscious.)

As you said, Terri was given drugs to "quiet her". But that does not mean that she was conscious, or that the hospice thought she was conscious. It merely means that, despite their knowledge, the staff of the hospice could not (nor would they want to) throw off their empathy. So they made an effort to "make Terri comfortable", even though they knew it was more for the benefit of themselves (and anybody else in the room) than Terri.

Why do we "make comfortable" comatose patients? Why do we try to not be cruel to animals that we don't view as self-aware? Why do we lay the dead on cushions? We do so because we are human, not because we assume consciousness.

Now, some people might bring up the hard problem of consciousness in response to these actions. (How do we know if Terri is conscious or not? We medicate her on the off-chance that she is suffering even though we know that is impossible.) But I think that is merely because people have an easier time admitting the fallibility of their knowledge than the irrationality of their emotions.

Not that I'm saying that irrationality is bad. Perfect rationality leads to a world that is devoid of meaning (although excessive irrationality does the same thing). I certainly felt empathy for Terri Schiavo, even though I knew Schiavo felt nothing.

I hope we can discuss this in a calm and reasonable manner. --L33tminion | (talk) 22:55, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)


For most of 15 years Terri Schiavo had a standing order for analgesics to relieve menstrual pain. There's no way that her caregivers believed that she did not experience pain. She behaved as if she experienced pain, which is all, existentially speaking, we know for certain about anyone else's experience of pain. When someone behaves as if they are experiencing pain, the only rational conclusion is that they are experiencing pain, even though you can't prove it in an absolute sense.

Also, take at look at the Exit Protocol that her hospice doctor wrote up for her in 2001. Take special note of the instructions to use analgesics for symptoms of pain and discomfort: "Monitor symptoms of pain/discomfort. If noted, medicate with Naproxen rectal suppository 375 mg. Q8 prn." If you tell me that you don't think that means that he thought she could experience pain, I won't believe you. NCdave 04:32, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)


That's standard procedure even for the comatose. Such procedures are not for the comfort of the unconscious, but for the comfort of those around them. One of the things it does is make the patient seem more comfortable. Even the unconscious can seem to be in pain. "Making them comfortable" makes them seem more comfortable, which comforts the families and loved ones of the patients (as well as the other patients and hospital staff).

It is intuitive to believe that someone who seems to be in pain is suffering. But sometimes intuition can run counter to fact. If, for example, that person is missing most of their brain.

I am new to this, and am not sure I am adding a comment in the correct or useful place, so excuse me if not. Pain is an extremely primal function. It isn't an intellectual activity. I don't think it can be assumed that Terri Shiavo could not experience pain. If a creature seems to be in pain, it probably is. The comment above "Even the unconscious can seem to be in pain." is interesting. I recall reading that even under general anaesthesia, the administration of local pain killers to suppress pain in an operation will significantly improve the outcome. I think it is inhumane to assume pain is not experienced just because a mentally damaged person, or any animal, is unable to verbalize it. Tropix 00:23, 2005 Apr 11 (UTC)

If you want to make some sort of panpsychic argument that the removal of the area of the brain responsible for consciousness might not have removed consciousness, then why would dying remove Terri's consciousness? (Certainly that's the religious belief...)

Why don't you call up a local hospice or hospital and ask them if is standard procedure to medicate terminal patients who are known to be comatose or in a persistent vegetative state? --L33tminion | (talk) 05:27, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)


L33minion, somebody has been lying to you. A patient who is unconscious does not react to pain stimulus, and so there are no "symptoms of pain/discomfort," and therefore no analgesics can be given in response to such symptoms. Nor are analgesics customarily given to comatose patients, simply because they cannot feel pain or react to pain. For example, see [1] which is a reference to a study of the use of analgesics and sedatives in terminal patients from whom life support has been withdrawn. The abstract notes that, "Patients who did not receive medication were comatose and considered incapable of benefiting from sedation and analgesia." In fact, sedation to unconsciousness is commonly used instead of analgesics, to give peace to patients who cannot be made comfortable with analgesics.

Also, the claim that Terri was missing most of her brain is untrue. Two of the neurologists that George Felos selected testified that that was the case, based on examination of her CT scans, but the two Felos-selected neurologists contradicted each other. One said that most of her brain had been replaced by "spinal fluid." The other said that most of her brain was "scar tissue." Obviously, at least one of them was talking nonsense: scar tissue and spinal fluid do not look remotely similar on a CT scan.[2]

In fact, neurologists aren't qualified to interpret CT scans, anyhow. That's a job for radiologists. The two radiologists three radiologists that I know of who looked at Terri's CT scans both all concluded that her brain was significantly atrophied, but not nearly as bad as Felos's handpicked neurologists claimed, and doubted that she was in a PVS. Radiologist Thomas Boyle, M.D. (host of the award-winning CodeBlueBlog web site), who has interpreted over 10,000 brain CT scans, wrote, "I have seen many walking, talking, fairly coherent people with worse cerebral/cortical atrophy. Therefore, this is in no way prima facie evidence that Terri Schiavo's mental abilities or/or capabilities are completely eradicated. I cannot believe such testimony has been given on the basis of this scan." NCdave 21:40, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Requests For Comment

The guy who first nominated you hasn't bothered to inform you (not really good etiquette), but you have been put up for RFC. The page is here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/NCdave. Proto 11:49, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I actually would have. I had other things to do at the moment, and it's not good etiquette to pass judgment on others' etiquette skills, really. Mike H 11:51, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
You're right, and I apologise. Would it be poor etiquette to point out that your etiquette in complaining about my etiquette on judging your etiquette was not good etiquette either? Really? ;) Proto 12:39, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Now my head is just spinning :) Mike H 12:40, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Minor edits

I noticed you flagged these edits: [3] [4] and as minor. In reality, only the 2nd one was minor, as it was tweaking a typo from the first edit. I personally have no opinion on the article and this is not about whether or not the article deserves those tags, and as you can see I have never editted it. Please see Wikipedia:Minor edits for further clarification. Cheers. Burgundavia 09:40, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A potential compromise

I'm willing to make a compromise with you because I don't particularly feel like running you off wikipedia, which some others feel this rfc may do. And, despite what you might think, I don't particularly want you as an enemy either. If you come back to the Terri Schiavo page, and if you make a collaborative effort with the other editors, I will withdraw my support for rfc. -Professor Ninja

That's what I've been doing all along, Ninja. NCdave 09:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The amount of evidence against you is lengthy enormous, ... -Ninja

It is non-existant. I'll tell you what, you pick one or two of what you think are the strongest examples of my supposed misconduct, from that list of over 100 at [5], and I'll rebut them. I don't have time to go through the entire list.
I've already pointed out that the 1st item in that list of supposed examples of my misconduct is actually an example of me working with someone of a different POV, to try to reach a concensus, by accepting a strong argument and politely rebutting a weak one. The supposed example of misconduct was given as simply this link, with no indication of what I was accused of doing wrong: POV warning.
I asked what can be the complaint about that? At that section I wrote only two short notes. This comment was one of them:
The only way to make a NPOV article about a controversial topic is to include factual information supporting all the POVs. If information that is cited by adherents to one POV as supportive of their POV is systematically deleted from the article, then the article becomes biased. That is why I have consistently ADDED missing information to the article, rather than deleting information that other people have contributed. Several of those here who support killing Terri take the opposite approach: they just DELETE the information that is inconsistent with their bias. NCdave 12:32, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What could possibly be wrong with that??
And this comment was the other:
Agreed that "world renowned" reflects POV; I've deleted it. The evidence for battery, however, is compelling. I've added much of it, with lots of supporting links. NCdave 12:32, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
That's it. That's all there is that I wrote in that section.
One of the doctors supporting the Schindlers was described in the article (by someone else, I think) as "world renowned." In my comment I noted the evidence that Terri had been battered, and I agreed with Fox1 that describing a Schindler doctor as "world renowned" reflected POV, and told him (Fox1) I had deleted that phrase from the article, because it was POV-biased in favor of the Schindler family. How could anyone supporting the M.Schiavo POV object to that? But some folks are sure that anyone who disagrees with them is not merely wrong, but evil. NCdave 09:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

...and I suspect that that's only because in two months you've never had a disciplinary action taken against you; they're a slap in the face and they can serve to smarten anybody up. Consider this a peer disciplinary action. You have undoubtedly made excellent contributions in the past. However, that doesn't excuse your other behaviour, and you need to understand this. You've made everybody jumpy with your edits to the talk page and articles. Work with people to achieve consent; that's all anybody's ever asked. -Ninja

When I have carefully and laboriously discussed in advance what needs to be done to the article to make it accurate and npov, the result is that my edits are STILL instantly reverted, generally without comment, by people who did not bother to participate in the Talk page discussion. NCdave 09:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

People call you out because of your history. Take it, and prove them wrong. I'm frankly tired of wading through the diffs to see what you've done, and I'd rather just achieve a compromise with you. -Ninja

I would love to achieve compromise. How about, as a first step, we agree to leave the "disputed" tags in the article, until some compromising actually happens? After all, there can't be any honest dispute about the fact that the accuracy and neutrality of the are article are disputed. Right? NCdave 09:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Try to remember a few things:

1. People aren't here to kill Terri or support her death. We're here to make a relevant article concerning her life.

I wish I could believe that. I understand that you have a very strong POV, and that you think the Schindlers and the doctors and nurses and priests who supported them are untrustworthy, and that Michael Schiavo just wanted what was best for his wife, and that Judge Greer was fair and impartial. But if the article is going to be accurate and npov, it must reflect BOTH sides of the dispute. Where the facts are disputed, it should tell BOTH the Schindlers' version and M.Schiavo's version. Otherwise it is biased at best, and as often as not just plain untruthful.
Ninja, you were not among those who simply deleted my comments from the Talk:Terri_Schiavo page, without even archiving them. But you are among those here who have repeatedly reverted my attempts to bring balance and accuracy to the article, and often posted comments on the Talk pabe about my dishonesty and/or evil intent.
If you are sincere about wanting to work together to reach concensus, then I'm willing to just let bygones be bygones, and work with you. NCdave 09:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

2. Recognize your own bias; you undoubtedly have your beliefs and that's fine. But beliefs and facts don't always mix, neither do speculation and facts. The speculation might be true, but it has to pass an evidence test. If you feel a conflict of interest coming on, ask another editor to look at the section and see what needs to be done.

That's why I include so many references, to support the information that I have contributed. NCdave 09:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

3. Two wrongs don't make a right, or two POVs don't make an NPOV. When it comes to speculation and criticism, give everybody a fair share. When it comes to hard facts, deal only with the facts. Don't couch your own criticism in weasel words. If you feel there's valid criticism, cite it concisely and include it. -Ninja

I very much agree, except that an article which is about a contentious issue must fairly include both sides. Wikipedia articles are supposed to represent all views[6]. The current Terri_Schiavo article does not. NCdave 09:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

4. Apologize. People take being slighted amazingly well when a person admits they overstepped their bounds. They'll usually agree they helped escalate it. Only the most asinine of people really believe somebody's beyond redemption.

I agree.

5. Relax, don't jump around the talk page so much. State something cogently and move on. Acknowledge rebuttals. Offer up pieces of evidence or documents as such, not as absolutes that must be obeyed. Acknowledge conflict of interest even if it comes from a POV you agree with. It comes from all sides.

Please understand what a conflict of interest is. "Conflict of interest" is not the same thing as "prejudice" or "predisposition." A conflict of interest occurs when someone's own interests run counter to his obligations.[7]
Familial or comradely affection is not conflict of interest. There is no conflict of interest inherent in a person making medical decisions on behalf of a patient that he or she loves.
Nor is there a conflict of interest if, for example, an outspoken "right to die" advocate is the lawyer hired to argue for ending Terri's life, nor if an outspoken "right to life" advocate organizes protests in defense of her life, nor if a physician who is a practicing Christian gives a medical diagnosis, nor if a physician who is a new age spiritualist gives a medical diagnosis.
None of those are conflicts of interest. An example of a conflict of interest is when someone is responsible for medical decisions on behalf of a patient, but stands to realize a financial (or other) gain if the patient dies.

6. Don't misquote people or misattribute statements they've made. Be charitable; if somebody says something that can mean two things, take it the polite way instead of the condescending way.

To the best of my knowledge, I never have and never will misquote anyone here or misattribute any quotes. I have repeatedly been accused of misquoting or inaccurately paraphrasing, but every one of those accusations were false.
Contrast that with complaint #11 against me on the RFC page, about the edit I made in Wikiquette. That's CustomOfLife/Mike H.'s (unsigned) complaint. He accused me of editing Wikiquette to justify my POV, and said, "Only after much reverting and discussion on the talk [8] did he edit in something compliant with what Wikipedia is."
That's just plain untrue. What actually happened is that I read Wikiquette for the first time, and noticed an ambiguity. I could see what it was intended to say, but I also saw that it could be misinterpreted. So I fixed it, to make it clear and unambiguous, without changing the original intended meaning one whit. It was a very small change, just a clarification.
I was just trying to help. Some thanks I got.  :-(
Here's the history: [9], and here's the Talk page commentary: [10]
This was my first attempt (March 20) to fix it: [11]
It was reverted without comment by Gmaxwell.
Just for the record here: I left a message on your talk page at the same time I reverted it... so much for truth and accuracy. But I guess we shouldn't be shocked to see you trying to rewrite the history of rewriting policy. :) --Gmaxwell 00:46, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Just for the record, you reverted it without any comment on the Wikiquette Talk page, and your Edit summary said simply "rv." What you posted to my talk page was just a false accusation:[12] NCdave 18:36, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
On March 28 I tried again, with almost the same wording, but this time with an "edit summary" comment that said what the purpose of my edit was: "clarify: right & wrong can mean good & bad, or can mean true & false. True v. false is, of course, entirely appropriate topic for discussion on Talk pgs"
TheCustomOfLife/Mike H. immediately re-reverted it.
So on March 29 I tried a different wording, hoping to achieve concensus: [13]
It was reverted, without comment, by an anon, and the next day TheCustomeOfLife/Mike put a comment on the Talk page wrongly accusing me of changing wikiquette to support my edits elsewhere, by making the wikiquette say that "you can talk on the talk page about things that are morally right or wrong without trying to link it to the article..."
Since Mike H.'s comment inverted the meaning of what I wrote, it seemed to me that he must have misread it. So on March 31 I replied on the Talk page, saying: "You completely reversed the meaning. ... The disambiguated version that I created said, 'The Talk pages are not a place to debate value judgements...' Did you overlook the word 'not'?"
Then I waited for his response. I was hoping he'd say, "oh, yeah, I misread it, sorry." But he didn't reply.
On April 4, SlimVirgin restored my version, but 11 minutes later TheCustomeOfLife/Mike reverted it again, still with no comment.
On April 6, I tried yet another wording: [14].
I also put a comment on the Talk page that said, TheCustomOfLife/Mike H. reverted it again. So here's a version that perhaps will meet with his approval."
Half an hour later Mike H. replied, "That version works just fine." And that's the wording that is there now.
Now some might say that my 4th version (which Mike accepted) was better than the others. But surely everyone can see that all four were clearer than the original text, and that none of them deviated from the original intended meaning. Making a tiny improvement to the wording really shouldn't have required all that trouble, and incurred all that abuse -- abuse that continues to this day, in the form of that false complaint on the RFC page. NCdave 09:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

7. Don't rag on people for things like "Pearson" when they clearly mean "Pearse". It's a simple little typo that anybody can make, and it makes you come off really condescending. -Ninja

It isn't a typo when he does it three times in a row, but I'd have let it go if it were not for the fact that he claimed that I'd been citing "Pearson." That was in a paragraph in which he falsely and outragously accused me "quoting out of context." After an accusation like that, I could have blasted him back. But, in spite of his attack, my reply just said, "Huh? Who's "Pearson?" I never said anything about anybody named Pearson." Really, I thought that was very restrained. I just left it to the reader to infer whatever they wished from the fact that he didn't even get the GAL's name right. NCdave 09:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

8. You don't have to repeat the same things over and over, it makes people not listen to you. Keep sections on topic, tangents really annoy people. Having a conversation about one thing when somebody jumps in the middle of it spouting off is annoying as hell.

If the points didn't keep getting deleted or archived, I wouldn't have to keep making them.
We still have people around here who don't know that Terri could swallow Jell-O and flavored slurries, and who don't know that it took Michael aproximately 8 years to "remember" what he now says Terri told him, and who don't know that for years Michael claimed that she had NOT told him that, and who don't know that when Michael first "remembered" what she had supposedly told him he stood to inherit 3/4 $million upon her death, and who don't know that that four dozen neurologists and numerous other doctors dispute the PVS diagnosis, and who don't know that the judge's final orders were not to remove Terri's feeding tube but rather to deprive her of food and water by any means, and who don't know that Florida statutes did not permit him to deprive her of food and water by natural means, etc..
When someone states, for example, that Terri "couldn't swallow," simple respect for the truth requires that it be corrected. NCdave 09:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

9. Don't go at things with such bombast, because it gets everybody in the mood. A guy walks into a gun store full of customers with a .45 drawn demanding cash, and pretty soon the whole place is riddle with bullet holes and blood. Make your points with gentle persuasion, not outbursts. -Ninja

I'm working on it. Really, I am. See, for example, my gentle rejoinder to FuelWagon about "Pearson" (above), after he accused me of quoting out of context.
But, Ninja, you have not been exactly gentle, yourself. I haven't called anyone here any names, ever. You've called me all kinds of terrible things. Let's call a truce, okay? NCdave 09:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

10. Take a deep breath, walk away. It's hard as hell, especially when you have a point to make. Fire up a random page and do a style or copy edit. Come back. Think about editing the article. Edit the article for style instead of POV. Let somebody else handle it.

etc...

I've never gotten anybody banned in my life, or deleted, suspended, or disciplined. Ever, because I don't believe in it, and I don't feel like starting now. You're already teetering dangerously close with your edit history, and most of that is from me, and I'd feel very responsible if a more drastic action was taken against you. Prove your worth in collaborations, not by turning wikipedia into a pulpit. Professor Ninja 18:57, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

My purpose is simply an accurate, balanced, npov article. The current article is a wreck. If folks here won't permit it to be accurate and npov/balanced, then at least I can keep disputing the accuracy and neutrality, so that unwary visitors to Wikipedia won't be misled into thinking that they are reading the undisputed truth.
Professor Ninja, just 18 hours before you posted this "potential compromise" item on my User_talk page, over on the Talk:Terri_Schiavo page you falsely accused me of "misquoting," "vandalism," "name-calling," a "campaign of misinformation," "outright lies," and of being "a troll" -- all in just one paragraph![15]
I truly hope that this olive leaf means that in that 18 hour interval you have had a true change of heart. Those attacks were both false and vicious, and (unfortunately) typical. I may be annoying, but I do not misquote, I do not vandalize, I do not engage in name-calling, and I do not lie.
I do sometimes make mistakes, but when I discover them I correct them (unlike Judge Greer).
For example, last month I dug around on the Nobel web site, and I found the page that describes who is qualified to nominate for the Prize in Medicine, and Congressmen aren't. So I wrote to Dr. Hammesfahr and informed him of that fact, and included a link to that web page in my email to him, to prove it, and on March 27-28 I posted comments on the Talk:Terri_Schiavo page[16] stating what I then believed to be the proven fact that Hammesfahr could not have been validly nominated:
Agreed, and Bilirakis is qualified to nominate for the Peace Prize -- but not the Prize for Medicine. So it was probably an honest mistake on both their parts. OTOH, that was six years ago, so Hammesfahr should have have figured it out and corrected his web site by now. NCdave 04:32, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well, his web site says "Medicine," not "Peace." He probably didn't pay close enough attention to what Hannity said. Anyhow, I've emailed him and politely pointed out that the fellow who nominated him wasn't qualified to do so, and I included the link to prove it [17], and asked him to correct the erroneous information on his web site. I'll consider it a test of his integrity to see whether or not he does so. ... NCdave 23:31, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
But then I got a reply email from Dr. Hammesfahr, with a plausible explanation (he said that the Nobel nomination rules had changed). So I posted a correction:
Oops, my bad. It appears that Hammesfahr's Nobel nomination was vaild. See below. NCdave 20:36, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Update: I've just received an email reply from Dr. Hammesfahr; here it is: ...
So, it appears that Dr. Hammesfahr's Nobel nomination was legitimate, after all. NCdave 20:36, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well, it is at least certainly plausible. I've asked him for the documentation. Let's see what he comes up with.
I've also emailed the Nobel Foundation, and asked them what the nomination process was and who the qualified nominators were back in January, 1999. NCdave 21:43, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm still seeking documentation. NCdave 09:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The documentation for the Nobel Foundation is available directly at its website. [18] The process has remained unchanged since 1901. Despite whatever else Hammesfahr might or might not have accomplished, his Nobel Nomination is most invalid. As for the evidence, okay, I'll pick three of what I feel are your biggest breaches. 1) Comparing TCassedy to a Holocaust denier: [19] and 2) Asking the extremely loaded attack question about thinking it's okay to kill six month olds [20] in reference to somebody pointing out that, because the Schindlers agreed that Terri had the mental faculties of a six month old (I am not here to debate the veracity of this) her "ahhhhhhhhh waaaaaa" outburst (I am also not debating the veracity of this) cannot mean "I want to live" because 6-mo.-olds do not have the faculties to make such statements. Essentially, you dogded the argument offered up, and attacked him with a loaded question. 3) And, to be fair, I will give you a weak argument to defend against, a POV edit to the Terri Schiavo article; [21] citing this article [22]. That is one cardinal, not the Vatican. I similarly quoted a Jesuit bioethicist that had taken an oppossing stance in Newsweek which you dismissed because it was, of all things, in Newsweek. That's a fairly large characterization of the entire Vatican (I'm well aware of Catholic policies, too).
I can't comment on the other articles of evidence; they were not added by me and they are thus beyond my purview to argue for.
You understand that the factual accuracy of the article, too, is not disputed. The factual accuracy of all articles here can be taken to be lacking, or inaccurate. What is important is that, in the case of Tropix, Jdavidb, and Patsw, they are working towards improving the factual accuracy of the article instead of merely attempting to throw it into doubt. You undoubtedly have access to a lot of information, and this is important. But bits of evidence do not prove themselves one way or another. For example you offered the Encarta definition of PVS earlier; if this is to be considered accurate than we must assume that Dr. Cheshire's affidavit is inaccurate, since he comments:
There are many behaviors typical for patients in PVS that... could easily [be mistaken] as voluntary.... It is quite common for dedicated and caring family members, hoping desperately for a sing from their loved one, to misinterpret these reflexes as evidence of communication. Such behaviors can include involuntary arousal, eye opening, random eye movements (nystagmus and horizontal scanning), brief eye contact, reflexive withdrawal from a noxious stimulus, movement of the lips or mouth or turning of the head in response to oral stimulation (suck and rooting reflexes which also occur in newborn infants), spontaneous grimmacing [sic] orsmiling or displays of emotion (affective release, usually a momentary gesture), and certain other nonsustained behaviors...)
Both the encarta definition and Cheshire's definition cannot be true, either one is true or the other is. If the Encarta definition is true, then Cheshire is inherently wrong about PVS, and thus his diagnosis is flawed and incredible. If Cheshire's affidavit is true, then the Encarta definition is incorrect and too short. I would more than likely assume that the Encarta definition is untrue and Cheshire (as well as other neurologists) have given a consistent definition of the peculiarities of a persistent vegetative state. Today, however, you have offered the Encarta definition as proof that Michael is lying about pain, or swallowing (all defined as being "felt" or able to being responded to by the patient in a PVS by Cheshire and others). You see the problem? This is not the proper tack to take. Even if you get your way, you have essentially shot yourself in the foot. Imagine if you had all the other editors leave, and you subsequently edit the article to your definition. Another editor subsequently comes along and uses your Encarta definition of PVS, for example, to put in the article that Dr. Cheshire was lying on his affidavit. You see the problem that comes from attacking a position from all possible sides? You end up frequently attacking your own position, as well. All of this subsequent evidence cannot be true, they are in conflict with each other. Since the evidence is primarily being offered up with the Schindlers, they, not Michael, must resolve this conflict as to why evidence x says a but evidence y says b; Michael does not have to defend against this. Please keep that in mind. Professor Ninja 18:05, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Three-day block

I blocked you for three days. I don't relish it and I regret that I was forced to do it, but it was necessary. Dave, look at your contribs. Every single one has been to Terri Schiavo or to its talk page, or to the RfC on you. Your edits are very clearly POV, and have come into unanimous opposition on talk. Reverting, talk page rants, and disruption—even in the face of dozens of users telling you otherwise—is unacceptable at Wikipedia. Take three days off and come back. With warmest regards --Neutralitytalk 20:32, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

Neutrality, the ruthlessness of your POV-pushing astounds me. You mock Wikipedia NPOV standards.
As you well know, my edits to the Terri Schiavo article have been carefully and consistently npov, improving accuracy and balance, in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines. You, however, consistently work to make that article a propaganda piece for your POV, reverting attempts by me and other honest editors[23][24] to add balance, even to the extent of abusing your administrator privilages to block those with whom you disagree. You and your allied POV warriors won't even allow a "neutrality disputed" or "accuracy disputed" warning tag, even though you know perfectly well that the accuracy and neutrality of the article are certainly disputed.
For example, the fact is that Terri Schiavo's diagnosis was and is a source of enormous controversy The court ruled that she was in a vegetative state, but most of the doctors who weighed in on the issue said that diagnosis was questionable or incorrect (see[25] & [26] & [27]). You know that to be true, yet when I inserted balanced language evenhandledly noting the two competing diagnoses[28], and who supported each of them, you blocked me for three days.
Neutrality, you should be ashamed. NCdave 09:38, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I clarified some points and defended some of your edits.

See e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Terri_Schiavo&diff=13643269&oldid=13642978

where we say:

[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Terri_Schiavo&diff=13629402&oldid=13629325)

NCdave's version is described as the 'less POV version'. now THAT is whacky. FuelWagon 03:20, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

The vandal has been reported here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism_in_progress#Current_alerts) FuelWagon 04:01, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

You did not document your claim on that page as well as you did here; I clarified and affirmed some of your claim and overturned other of it here: [12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism_in_progress#Current_alerts) --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 04:44, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

and: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Vandalism_in_progress&diff=0&oldid=13644183

where we say:

209.170.130.127 209.170.130.127 (talk · contributions) vandalizing the Terri Schiavo page multiple times. FuelWagon 03:30, 13 May 2005 (UTC) Fuel Wagon did not list the diff to back up his accusation; here is it: [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Terri_Schiavo&diff=13629402&oldid=13629325) --comments: While I believe it was NC Dave who did the "vandalism," as shown in this diff [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Terri_Schiavo&diff=13641661&oldid=13641611) by the author of the above, this may amount to less than vandalism. Closer analysis of (apparently) NCdave's edit shows that he got a little talkative -and may have inserted either repetitive or slightly biased comments. (Mention of MCS initially may not be necessary, hence it may be repetitive; also, the breaking of the marriage vows by Mike Schiavo may not have relevance and be slightly distractive or biased.) However, since both sides of the court-appointed doctors were mentioned (those for and against the PVS diagnosis), it would not be fair to only list some "Pro-PVS" doctors that were not court-appointed. In this sense, it would only be fair that some Anti-PVS doctors who were not court-appointed be mentioned to balance those that Mike Schiavo is said to have hired. In that sense, Dave's edit is more stylistic and less vandalism. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 04:40, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Sincerely, --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 05:34, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mediator's Announcement

You are invited to participate in the Mediation regarding the Terry Schiavo article. Initial discussion is beginning at Talk:Terri Schiavo/Mediation. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 20:28, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Terri Schiavo

Please stop deleting content from Talk:Terri Schiavo. --Viriditas | Talk 05:51, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It was accidental, caused by a Wikipedia glitch, as I explained on Talk:Terri Schiavo as soon as I saw FuelWagon's message. I'd have restored the deleted material if I'd discovered it, but Fuelwagon got there first. NCdave 06:19, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, neither of you restored my content. --Viriditas | Talk 07:01, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, somebody got there first. Yes, I see that he restored some of it and you restored the rest. Less than five minutes after I noticed Fuelwagon's message (and about 30 minutes after my original accidental revert), I did version compares to see what was going on, and what needed to be restored. I could see where I had accidentally reverted messages from three people, including you; but all were restored by then. If they had not been already restored, then I would have restored them.
I've had my Talk page contributions intentionally deleted by M.Schiavo partisans (on a massive scale). However I don't believe in censorship (except of obscenity), and I don't do that sort of thing (not intentionally, anyhow). NCdave 18:23, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I feel that I should invite you to respond to this:

I have asked for disciplinary measures against NCDave on Talk:Terri Schiavo/Mediation#It's time to deal with the bully. I ask for your support.--ghost 20:20, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vote - I am tiring of mediation, and hope we fix the problem soon: This may work

Vote - I am tiring of mediation, and hope we fix the problem soon: This may work'

  • Generic Updates Message to other participants: I have imitated Uncle Ed's Q & A method and tried to augment it, and I have declared a tentative (minor) success on the first of seven questions I've presented, thanks to teamwork of many of you in the past, some named in that question. Most of all of other six "Vote on these" items are valid concerns, shared by all, even if we don't agree to the answers. So, I'm asking you all to review and vote on the lingering issues. Also, Wagon has suggested we get both guidelines and examples (role model was the term he used). We all know the rules, but I found one example of a controversial topic that simply shared the facts in a cold, dry method: The Slavery article neither supports nor opposes slavery: It is "just the facts." Thus, I hope the answers I gave to the questions I proposed were correct and just the facts, without an appearance of POV. "Have faith in me," I say (imitating Uncle Ed's similar claim), and I haven't failed yet -the one time I tried: In the http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Abortion and http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Abortion, I brought peace, so I expect my method will work here too. So, get on over to The Mediation Voting Center, and vote, for Gordon's sake: I have voted, and so can you.--GordonWattsDotCom 04:50, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] southern ocean

Ok so there's non signing red users requiring eternal arguments - but even if it went by another name - the article does look poorer for the fact that the earlier stages of its life (under whatever name) is lacking ...SatuSuro 01:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

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