Talk:National Caucus of Labor Committees

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Mediation, arbitration, and requests for clarification, LaRouche movement, 2004-2007

Requests for clarification 2006 and 2007
"Request for appeal ...", Tsunami Butler, Jan 24, 2007.
"LaRouche again", SlimVirgin, Nov 22,2006.
"Lyndon LaRouche", ManEatingDonut, Oct 23, 2006.

Mediation 2006 and 2007
Informal mediation, November 2006
Informal mediation talk, February 2007

Arbitration 2006
Herschelkrustofsky banned, May 5, 2006.
Herschelkrustofsky enforcement, Apr 15, 2006.
Herschelkrustofsky enforcement request, May 5, 2006.

Arbitration 2005
Nobs01 and others, November 2005.
Cognition's statement in Nobs01 and others, Nov 22, 2005.
Modification of LaRouche 2 in Nobs01 and others, Dec 23, 2005.
Herschelkrustofsky indefinite probation in Nobs01 and others, Dec 23, 2005.
LaRouche 2, Jan 25, 2005–Feb 17, 2005.
LaRouche 2 talk
LaRouche 2 evidence
LaRouche 2 proposed decision
LaRouche 2 proposed decision talk

Arbitration 2004
LaRouche 1, July 4—Sep 13, 2004.
LaRouche 1 talk
LaRouche 1 evidence
LaRouche 1 evidence talk
LaRouche 1 proposed decision
LaRouche 1 proposed decision talk

Mediation 2004
Herschelkrustofsy and AndyL, July 3, 2004.
Herschelkrustofsky and DJSupreme23, June 14, 2004.
Herschelkrustofsky and Adam Carr, November 15, 2004.
Herschelkrustofsky and SlimVirgin, December 16, 2004.

1 old comments
2 New comments
3 Fusion
4 Anonymous edits
- 4.1 Michael Hudson
5 SDS
6 Disputed

[edit] old comments

Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List of wild fabrications and propagandistic slurs in the present version.
Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Significant Omissions from the current version
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Herschelkrustofsky (talk • contribs) August 19, 2004.

[edit] New comments

The new version seems pretty solid to me. If anyone has any specific criticisms, let's discuss them here. -Willmcw 21:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fusion

I have not read any articles of Fusion, but it seems rather presumptive and biased to claim LaRouche as "praising Nazi Rocket Scientists", and what is the deal with the DDT?. Just asking.

RoyBot 69.248.43.27 11:35, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anonymous edits

Cognition was right to say "Willmcw, the changes in question were added by an anonymous passerby who did not provide citations or discuss the additions on the Talk page." I have noticed on other pages that Willmcw will often demand extensive source citations, and on this one he let all sorts of biased comments in without any objection. This seems like a double standard. --NathanDW 20:44, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Are there any specific issues about the article that you'd like to raise, or are you just complaining? -Will Beback 22:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Here are some objections to the anonymous edits. The older version was much more neutral and objective.

This paragraph is completely POV: "By the late 1970s, the NCLC had abandoned Marxism altogether, in favor of what LaRouche called an American System approach. Critics such as Chip Berlet, Russ Bellant and Dennis King, noting the NCLC's obsession with Jewish banking conspiracies and its increasingly militaristic and statist rhetoric, accused it of adopting an essentially neo-fascist world view."

LaRouche did not invent the American System, but this makes it look like he did. Chip Berlet, Bellant and King did not "note the NCLC's obsession Jewish banking conspiracies and its increasingly militaristic and statist rhetoric." As far as I can tell from reading LaRouche's writings, there is no such obsession. These charges are repeated like a mantra by Berlet, but they should not be repeated in Wikipedia articles like they are established fact.

Saying that NCLC members "attempt to carry out research" is POV. You can say that all researchers "attempt to carry out research," but this is propaganda language to belittle them. Webster Tarpley is listed as co-author of the Bush biography, but I don't find anything that backs up the anonymous editor's claim that he was the "main author." "Helga Zepp-LaRouche, wife of Lyndon, who has interpreted the ideas of Friedrich Schiller and Nicholas of Cusa to depict them as forerunners of LaRouche" -- also POV. And, I agree with Roybot -- the comments about Fusion magazine are just ridiculous.

Will Beback, you should not need me to point these things out to you. You seem to have no problem noticing these sort of thing in other articles. --NathanDW 17:06, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

If these are the problems with the text then deal with them - don't revert the entire article back to an old version. I'm going to revert your revert, and then address these specific issues. -Will Beback 18:37, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

NathanDW has changed this article back, step by step, towards its absurd earlier form. First, the writers he cited have not had a "major" influence on the LaRouche organization or on its ideology, which is all about Lyndon, his ego, his ideas. They are not taken seriously by any legitimate scholars. To point this out and to remove their puffed-up self-descriptions is not POV, as NathanDW keeps saying, its an attempt to keep wikipedia sane. The stuff about Helga trying to present Schiller as a proto-LaRouche is dead-on accurate; it is profoundly misleading to present her as a legitimate Schiller scholar. As to Webster Tarpley, his name is listed first on the book jacket in spite of his name being alphabetically second, and he was the one who went around promoting the book. And he's the one who sells it today on his own web site while I couldn't find it for sale on the LaRouche site. That NathanDW would try and palm this off as a book simply by Anton Chaitkin is another example of how utterly dishonest the LaRouche cult is.--15 February 2006

Sources for the disputed material would help settle this. Thanks, -Will Beback 01:55, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Material in Wikipedia articles must be verifiable. You are simply putting in your own opinions. The material that was there originally was not well sourced, but at least it was not full of speculation (for example, you are not putting in any evidence that Tarpley was the main author of the book. What you are doing is called Original Research and it is not permitted at Wikipedia.) I think the most honest and verifiable way to present the contributions of NCLC members is simply to list who has had books published, and what they were about. That is verifiable. The stuff about Michael Hudson doesn't belong in a biographical note about Allen Salisbury. It is simply more POV-pushing. --NathanDW 01:56, 16 February 2006

(UTC)

The article is not about Allen Salisbury, it is about the NCLC. The only reason the list of so-called NCLC scholars was placed in it was to promote the fantasy that NCLC is a "philosophical association" rather than what it really is--an anti-Semitic far-right cadre organization waging a centralized propaganda war against Jews, Judaism, Israel, the UK and the principles of American democracy. But once the claim is made that Salisbury is this great Carey scholar then the issue of what a real Carey scholar learned about Salisbury's organization becomes a legitimate comment. If you want Hudson out, and if you want 21st C magazine's pet Nazi scientists out, and if you want Helga's absurd views on Schiller to not be mentioned, then the solution is simple--take out the entire section on the so-called NCLC scholars. There ARE no NCLC scholars, only a group of fanatics headed by a convicted felon.-- 15 February 2006

NathanDW wants to get away with describing LaRouche's economic theories as "the American System" approach. I changed this back to "what NCLC members described as the American System approach." If these people want to treat their adherence to what they call the American System approach as a fact, they have to document it, which they haven't done any more than they have documented that LaRouche is the inheritor of Martin Luther King or Plato or Charles de Gaulle or Charlemagne or the Old Man of the Mountain or anyone else whom they have depicted at one time or another as a proto-LaRouche. As to the Webster Tarpley issue, I'm asking NathanDW again why he erased Tarpley's name. Is he trying to turn Wikipedia into a Soviet style encyclopedia in which if a leader falls from power his face gets airbrushed out of the picture? Just go to Tarpley's web site. He's selling the book and its the same edition published by the LaRouche organization and Tarpley's name is clearly listed first.--15 February 2006

None of your opinions matter under Wikipedia policy. Material in Wikipedia articles must come from published sources. Please provide sources for the opinions you have placed in the article or else remove them. --NathanDW 01:42, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with BirdsOfFire that these edits are original research. However I think both he an Cberlet should not have done a wholesale revert, but adressed them one by one. I will do that now, a few at a time. --NathanDW 16:29, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Michael Hudson

Cberlet, you deleted information about Michael Hudson, saying that it duplicates information in other articles. I think that this is a mistake because the reader of this article would have no way of knowing that there was information about Hudson in the other article. Also, I have seen that you frequently put duplicate information in more than one article, for example in Jeremiah Duggan and Political views of Lyndon LaRouche. You have done that quite recently in fact. So, you should not object to the Hudson information appearing here. --NathanDW 20:49, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Cannot have the same identical paragraph on two pages on LaRouche. Link if you must.--Cberlet 02:35, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Dude, the paragraphs are not identical, only the quote is. Please show me a rule on Wikipedia that says a quote can not appear in two different articles. --BirdsOfFire 16:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SDS

I notice there was an edit war over whether the group "left" or "was expelled" from SDS. Does either side of this conflict have any evidence? It doesn't seem like it should appear at all if there is no verification. Or, both versions of the story should appear. --172.197.75.131 14:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed

Is the article still disputed? There doesn't seem to be much discussion going on. --Tsunami Butler 21:40, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Flag should probably be removed.--Cberlet 22:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I removed the flag, and trimmed the LaRouchite propaganda unrelated to this page. Please abide by Arbcom decisions regarding pro-LaRouchite material on Wikipedia.--Cberlet 03:40, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Two questions:

1. How is a list of leading members considered "propaganda"?

2. Are you Chip Berlet?

--Tsunami Butler 15:38, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The list of names are still there, with links. The unrelated promotional plugs that are not really connected to the history of the defunct NCLC are gone. Are you a LaRouchie? Please abide by Arbcom decisions regarding pro-LaRouchite material on Wikipedia. --Cberlet 16:05, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Cberlet, please be mindful of WP:CIVIL. There is nothing illegitimate about this person asking you if you are Chip Berlet -- it's a matter of record at Talk:Chip Berlet. --NathanDW 15:12, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Please be mindful of the Arbcom decision against attempts to plug pro-LaRouche material into multiple pages. You are in violation.--Cberlet 17:56, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I brought this up in the "clarification" section at the "Requests for Arbitration" page, and the ArbCom member who responded said he couldn't find anything wrong with Nathan's edit [1]. --ManEatingDonut 14:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Do we have verifiable sources for the material? -Will Beback 23:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I replaced the ones who wrote books. That the books were published is verifiable. I don't know how to find the other ISBN numbers though -- maybe someone can help on this. --NathanDW 02:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)