Talk:Names for football (soccer)

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I'm considering incorporating a section from the generic Football article: Football#The_use_of_the_term_.22football.22_in_English-speaking_countries and renaming this article Football (word) or something similar... Possibly all this stuff belongs in Wiktionary, but I'm not sure. What do others think? Grant65 (Talk) 08:15, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

Hi Grant,
As some background, I originally created this article as a spin-off from Football (soccer), as the whole football vs soccer vs other names debate took up excessive space as everyone added their little pet thing to the debate, and in doing so detracted from the real substance of the article. As you would be aware, that article now just acknowledges the reality that the sport is known by different names in different places along with a very brief description of how these names developed; it intentionally avoids getting into a debate about what the sport is called where.
The Football article seems to suffer the same problem — excessive space taken up in the whole name debate which detracts from the real substance of the article, so I agree that a spin-off article on the issue is a good idea.
Having said that, I suggest creating a new article covering the broader issue of naming but leaving this article to deal with the whole football/soccer debate. You could possible use a "Main article: Football (soccer) names" link for the section on assoc football. What do you think?
Cheers, --Daveb 08:27, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Dave, I might do that; I do think such articles are steering dangerously close to Wiktionary territory though. Grant65 (Talk) 10:07, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

I have now created the football (word) article and can't help feeling that this should be combined with it. It strikes me that we could represent a good deal of the information from both pages with a grid-type table with axes for "name" and "country/region".

BTW I altered the South African paragraph here as it conflicted with the comparable section in football (word). A search of ".za" domains on Google for "soccer OR sokker -rugby" and "football -rugby" supports the idea that soccer is a more common name.Grant65 (Talk) 02:27, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Well, whatever you decide to do with the languages, I'll write out a few more here, and you can cut&paste the unicode source later if you wish. I'll add those languages where the nation/culture follows football avidly first.
Arabic
the Roman transliteration is fine (though a hyphen after al is more accurate), but here's the Arabic script:
كرة القدم
I could take a stab at the literal translation, but won't embarrass myself.
Hebrew
כדורגל
[the following have borrowed the word football]
Farsi (Persian), the transliteration is fūtbāl
فوتبال
And now, as a whim (and because I am a student), a language each from two nations who couldn't care less about football (because of their intense cricket rivalry perhaps?). I'm not sure if the loan word (i.e. football) is from the British colonial period or more recent.
Hindi
Roman transliteration: fuṭbāl
फ़ुटबॉल
Urdu
Roman transliteration: ibid.
فٹبال
Khirad 21:48, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] The Rest of the English-Speaking World

What is it commonly called in the rest of the English-speaking world? I know here in the Caribbean, with the exception perhaps of the Bahamas, it is known primarily as football, although "soccer" is understood and is used from time to time. But what about in India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Nigeria, Zimbabwe and every other place where English is the main language? Perhaps something can be added so that it will be known that football isn't the popular name only in the UK. -- Hairouna 05:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In Australia

I'm the biggest Soccer fan ever, but lets be honest. Apart from SBS do you ever hear any other channel or major newspaper call is Football? They only say football because it's the A-League's name, not the name of the sport in Australia. For example they say, 'Now to Soccer.. Football Ferderation, et'c. And to say it has been accepted by the fans is a falicy. Me of my many soccer fans have never heard anyone refer to it as football by anyone who has not emigrated recently and does not understand. I would like to talk to the person who keeps changing to make it look as if we refer to it as soccer to discuss this in a warm and understanding matter.

Wow, you know you really sound like a troll. In Sydney Skynews, SBS, ABC, SMH and most of the time the Daily Tele call it football. Sports tonight on Channel 10 use football. On the web Foxsports, Sportal, NineMSN also call it football. As to the fans not accepting it? Go to the forums - SydneyFC, The Marinators, Green & Gold Army, Extratime etc. 90-95% of people there call it football and fully support the renaming. Tancred 10:50, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I think you're misreading it; the start of the paragraph reads: "In Australian English, the word football usually means either Australian rules football or rugby league — the most popular codes of football in Australia — depending on the regional background of the speaker. Soccer is the name used for Association football by most Australians." Could that be any clearer? It doesn't say that it used to be called "soccer" and is now called "football" by most Australians. Grant65 | Talk 10:08, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Look in the yellow pages. It's still referred to as soccer cause if it isn't it will cause confusion. Face facts, it's not going to be called football unless the other codes are renamed. I don't try to force people from Sydney not to call rugby, football and they don't force me to try and stop me from calling aussie rules football. It will be known as soccer no matter what the football federation says. And I'm not referring to what a few Sydney people say. I'm referring to what the general public say. Even though they may like the change, they find it too hard to call it football because if they do, most people won't think they're talking about soccer. And most soccer clubs (not the major one still referr to it as soccer. I don't know about sydney. And yes, Tancred, I'm a troll. Growl growl, etc and get the hell off my brigge you old goat.

(Last note. The person who updated it lastly seem to make it seem more fairer and truer to the point. I am satisfied with this and will no longer be pursing this discussion. Thank you for your comments, I look forward to helping with other sites).


Oh for heaven's sake. Why does every article on this subject end up being a rambling argument by various Australians about what the word football means to them? This article is about what association football is called in various countries. The answer in Australia is reasonably simple - it is usually called soccer in the broad population, but often called football by those close to the game. End of story. Why anyone would think that a random person from around the world wanting to find out about this subject would want to read a detailed history of various football codes in Australia?? Mralph72 22:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

humph... these articles turn into edit wars as often as not because of the edits from a number of accounts like Licinius, NSWelshman, Ehinger222, Rugby 666 and the various sockpuppets between them. And every time it settles down, soon enough it starts again, usually posting complete rubbish incessantly - see the recent edit histories of Marconi Stadium, Aussie Stadium, Sport in New South Wales and Sydney Football Club for examples. Don't complain about rambling arguments that *you* have been integral in creating. Dibo T | C 23:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Just for giggles:

Oxford English Dictionary. 2nd Edition. 1989. Online version of the print edition.

Soccer

colloq.


({sm}s{rfa}k{schwa}(r)) Also socca, socker. [f. Assoc., short for Association. Cf. RUGGER2.]

The game of football as played under Association rules. Also attrib. and Comb. Hence {sm}soccerite, a player of soccer.

1899 1895 1894 1891 1889 1978 1976 1971 1951 1951 1945 1935 1924 1916

1889 E. C. DOWSON Let. 21 Feb. (1967) 38, I absolutely decline to see socca' matches. 1891 Lock to Lock Times 24 Oct. 13/2 A sterling player, and has the best interest of the ‘socker’ game at heart. 1894 Westm. Gaz. 11 Jan. 7/1 The rival attractions of ‘rugger’ and ‘socker’. 1895 19th Cent. Nov. 862 When the boat~race, sports, and ‘soccer’ are in most men's minds. 1899 New Cent. Rev. V. 118 A Methodist minister{em}who..doffed the Socker jersey. 1916 BLANCROFT & PULVEMACHER Handbk. Athletic Games (1922) 429 Soccer football, as it is called in America, is the English Association Football. 1924 H. DE SELINCOURT Cricket Match iv. 83 However any sane person could prefer soccer to cricket the good little Horace totally failed to comprehend. 1935 Punch 24 Apr. 476/2 No one more thoroughly qualified to write the history of ‘soccer’..can be imagined. 1945 Gen 13 Jan. 30/1 Many Soccerites..took to Rugby. 1951 R. CAMPBELL Light on Dark Horse 69 My father had founded the Technical College, a ‘soccerite’ school. 1951 Sport 7-13 Jan. 9/1 We had the F.A. scheme to bring the big professional clubs and the soccer-playing schools into closer contact. 1971 L. KOPPETT N.Y. Times Guide Spectator Sports xii. 193 All you need to play soccer is a ball, a field and players. 1976 Field 18 Nov. 989/2 They roar around, fighting and frolicking beneath like soccer hooligans. 1978 P. MARSH et al. Rules of Disorder iv. 97 The soccer terraces offer..a chance to escape from the dreariness of the weekday world.

DRAFT ADDITIONS MARCH 2004

soccer, n.

  • soccer mom orig. and chiefly U.S. (also soccer mum), a mother whose child or children play soccer; (in later use, chiefly) spec. a suburban American mother who spends much time transporting her children to athletic events, or otherwise supporting her children's activities; esp. any such woman viewed as a member of a particular (usually influential) class of voter, consumer, etc.

1982 2003

1982 Morning Union (Springfield, Mass.) 14 Oct. 11/4 The *Soccer Moms and the boys and girls raise $5,000 to $8,000 annually through door-to-door sales of candy. 2003 Economist (Electronic ed.) 5 July, Swing voters like suburban soccer moms tend to object to abortion being banned.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Oxford English Dictionary. 2nd Edition. 1989. Online version of the print edition.

Football

({sm}f{shtu}tb{revc}{lm}l) Also formerly foot-ball. [f. FOOT n. + BALL n.]

1. An inflated ball used in the game (see 2). It is now either spherical or (as in the Rugby game) elliptical, and consists of an inflated bag or bladder enclosed in a leather case.

1486 1508 1650 1795-1814 1708

1486 Bk. St. Albans, Her. Evja, It is calde in latyn pila pedalis a fotebal. 1508 BARCLAY Egloges v, The sturdie plowmen..driuing the foote ball. 1650 BAXTER Saints' R. IV. (1653) 282 Like a Football in the midst of a crowd of Boys. 1708 MOTTEUX Rabelais IV. vii. (1737) 26 The Bladder, wherewith they make Footballs. 1795-1814 WORDSW. Excursion VII. 743 If touched by him, The inglorious foot~ball mounted to the pitch Of the Lark's flight.

2. a. An open-air game played with this ball by two sides, each of which endeavours to kick or convey the ball to the goal at the opposite end of the field.

There are various styles of playing the game, but the most widely recognized are the Association and the Rugby Union and League games, and American football (see sense b below).

1424 1531 1663 1791 1880

1424 Sc. Act Jas. I, c. 18 The king forbiddes {th}t na man play at {th}e fut ball vnder {th}e payne of iiijd. 1531 ELYOT Gov. I. xxvii, Foote balle, wherin is nothinge but beastly furie and exstreme violence. 1663 Flagellum or O. Cromwell (ed. 2) 8 Players at Foot-ball, Cudgels, or any other boysterous sport or game. 1791 W. BARTRAM Carolina 509 The foot-ball is likewise a favorite, manly diversion with them [the Indians]. 1880 Times 12 Nov. 4/4 Not 15 years back, few men played football after they left school.

b. spec. = American football s.v. AMERICAN a. 3.

The term soccer is used in North America to distinguish what is in Britain called (Association) football or soccer from American football.

1881 1976 1954 1925

1881 N.Y. Herald 20 Nov. 8/5 A splendid game of football was played yesterday at the Polo Grounds between..Harvard and Princeton. 1925 F. SCOTT FITZGERALD Great Gatsby i. 7 Her husband..had been one of the most powerful ends that ever played football at New Haven. 1954 W. STEVENS Coll. Poems 270 The negroes were playing football in the park. 1976 Webster's Sports Dict. 162/2 Even though the game is named football, kicking plays a relatively minor role other than in attempting a field goal or point after touchdown.

3. fig. (esp. a person or thing that is kicked or tossed about like a football).

1532  ?c1600 1711 1879

1532 MORE Confut. Tindale Wks. 416/1 For so he maye translate the worlde in to a footeball yf he ioyne therewith certayn circumstaunces, and saye this rounde rollyng foote~ball that men walke vpon [etc.]. ?c1600 Distr. Emperor II. i. in Bullen O. Pl. III. 186, I am the verye foote-ball of the starres. 1711 Let. to Sacheverel 14 England must always have a National Football, and you, at present, are That. 1879 FROUDE Cæsar xv. 231 The..institutions of the mistress of the world had become the football of ruffians.

4. attrib. and Comb., as football-club, -day, -field, -ground, -match, -pitch, -play, -player, -playing, {dag}-sport, {dag}-swain, -union, -war; football coupon, a coupon used in an entry for a football pool; football hooligan, one who engages in violent behaviour, vandalism, etc., while attending (or travelling to or from) a football match; hence football hooliganism; football pool, an organized system of betting on the results of football matches; also, loosely, = football coupon. 1918 Methodist Times 5 Dec. 9/1 The amendment of the Gambling Laws, particularly in relation to *football coupons, [etc.]..is long overdue. 1940 S. O'CASEY Star turns Red I. 5 The concentration necessary to choose the right teams for entry in his football coupons. 1815 in Hone Every-Day Bk. I. 245 The coachman exclaimed..‘It's *Foot-ball day’. 1887 SHEARMAN Athletics & Football 247 Shrove Tuesday..was..the great ‘football day’ in England for centuries. 1867 Routledge's Handbk. Football 59, I know of no prettier sight than a *Football field on a bright March afternoon. 1986 Financial Times 25 June 17/5 Post-World Cup Brazil is trying to get used to the idea of defeat on the football field. 1852 Foot Ball Controversy (New Haven) 2 We appoint the usual *football ground..as the..place. 1898 Westm. Gaz. 12 July 10/1 Would it [sc. St. Paul's] not make a good football ground on a wet day if all the chairs were moved from under the dome? 1985 Guardian 2 Feb. 6/3 The concentration of debris into an area scarcely larger than a football ground showed that the missile had crashed. 1967 Observer 3 Dec. 7/2 The problem, Dr Harrington believes, is to find out what is the typical *football hooligan. 1984 Financial Times 4 June I. 13 Mr. Abbot is never actually as funny as he is on the box as..that carrot-headed Scottish football hooligan. 1969 New Society 27 Nov. 859/2 The Home Secretary's latest measures to deal with *football hooliganism received little publicity. 1986 Guardian Weekly 11 May 2/4 How can the House express its indignant rejection of football hooliganism while setting such a persuasive example of undignified and daily indiscipline? 1711 BUDGELL Spect. No. 161 {page}3, I was diverted from a farther Observation of these combatants, by a *Foot-ball Match. [1946 Brentwoodian Dec. 25 Football has been made compulsory on Thursdays and except when detention intervenes all six pitches are in use.] 1961 F. C. AVIS Sportsman's Gloss. 12 (caption) Association *Football pitch plan. 1986 Financial Times 26 Aug. 7/4 The development will have a dealing floor the size of Wembley football pitch. 1589 COGAN Haven Health i (1612) 2 Some are vehement, as dauncing, leaping, *foote ball play. 1805 SCOTT Last Minstr. V. vi, Some, with many a merry shout..Pursued the foot-ball play. 1605 SHAKES. Lear I. iv. 95 Ste. Ile not be strucken, my Lord. Kent. Nor tript neither, you base *Foot-ball plaier. 1583 STUBBES Anat. Abus. I. (1879) 137 Some spend the Sabaoth day..in..*foot-ball playing, and such other deuilish pastimes. 1929 Times Index Jan.-Mar. 59/2 *Football ‘pool’. 1936 Economist 7 Mar. 517/2 We may..put.. the total ‘rake off’ of football pool promoters..at not less than 30 per cent. of the amounts staked. 1957 M. SPARK Comforters i. 6 Louisa Jepp sat at the table writing out her football pools. 1959 Chambers Encycl. VI. 159/2 In 1954 football pools were estimated to be worth about £10 million to the post office. 1971 R. ROBERTS Classic Slum x. 183 Football pools ‘nationalised’ a local form of gambling. Before their introduction bookmakers supplied men in factory and workshop with fixed odds football coupons weekly. 1589 GREENE Menaphon Wks. (Grosart) VI. 137 At *foote ball sport, thou shalt my champion be. 1653 WALTON Angler i. 35 Where, for some sturdy *foot-ball Swain, Jone strokes a Sillibub or twaine. 1714 GAY Trivia II. 226 Lo! from far, I spy the Furies of the *Foot-ball War.

_________________________


Might as well toss the OED into the discussion, I suppose. There seemed to be some initial confusion about the provenance and range of time for the usage of each term in its own right when this was being discussed at the main Football (soccer) article. Hope this helps a bit.

Slainté,

-P.MacUidhir (t) (c) 08:51, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Slovene?

How is this related to words borrowed from English football terminology? "There's also nogomet in Croatian and Slovene which is composed of the words for "foot" and "target"." 81.232.72.53 13:36, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish form is a translation?

The Spanish word for "foot" is "pie", and for "ball" "pelota", so whoever wrote that the Spanish name "fútbol" is a direct translation made a mistake and I have deleted that line from the text.

[edit] Deletion of "rivalry" between rugby fans and soccer fans in England

I deleted this for several reasons. Firstly whoever added this didn't distinguish between rugby union and rugby league, there is a vast difference between the stereotyped backgrounds of the groups of fans. Secondly there is little rivalry, soccer is so far ahead that their fans barely bother to acknowledge the existance of other sports. I'm guessing that whoever originally wrote meant to imply that working-class people object to the 'posh word' soccer. I don't believe this to be true, I don't think many people here know the origin of the word and simply believe that it is a word that the Americans invented to annoy us.GordyB14:05, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Soccer football

The longer version of the name, "soccer football", is sometimes used.

Never heard of it and tried to google it.[1].

It just brings up pages on association football but the term itself does not appear in any of them. It seems to be entirely made-up. I am removing this line.GordyB23:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

  • You didn't try hard enough. Here's one of various references, and I feel safe to say this organization predates the term's usage on this page: [2] Wahkeenah 23:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Here's another one. [3] At the very least, this term seems to turn up in Australia. Wahkeenah 00:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, I will alter the text as it stands though because although quite a few English football clubs are 'Association Football Club' rather than 'Football Club'. I am quite sure that none are 'Soccer Football Club'.GordyB15:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

  • I think it goes back to what the predominant brand of football is an a given country. The term "American football" is seldom used in American, because it would be redundant. It would be like going to a restaurant in Paris and ordering French fries. "Fries" is sufficient. Wahkeenah 15:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Not entirely, 'AFC' is relatively common, soccer is sometimes used 'soccer football' is not. As for 'French fries', it is a term invented by Americans. The French say 'fried potatoes' and don't to my knowledge claim to ownership.GordyB 21:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Further info, just so you won't think I dreamed this. Allow me to quote from this website [4]: "Known originally as the U.S. Football Association, U.S. Soccer’s name was changed to the United States Soccer Football Association in 1945 and then to its present name [United States Soccer Federation] in 1974. U.S. Soccer is a non-profit, largely volunteer organization with much of its business administered by a national council of elected officials representing four administrative arms: youth players 19 years of age and under; adult players over the age of 19; the professional division and athletes." In fact, that info is on the USSF page already. Note the inadvertent redundancy in the USSFA name. Wahkeenah 00:44, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Some clubs in Australia recently started referring to themselves as "_______ Soccer Football Club", as a result of FFA's push to have the game called "football" here. The more arrogant ones just call themselves "______ FC", causing confusion with Aussie rules/rugby league, but some are sticking to "____Soccer Club" (abbreviated "SC"). Grant | Talk 10:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I think they should follow the implied lead of the old U.S. group. They should call themselves the "_______ Association Football Association". :) Wahkeenah 15:04, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
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