Talk:Na Nach Nachma

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Yes, I know that mantra is not a Jewish term, it is a Sanskrit or Hindu term, and some Jews object to it on those grounds. However, it has entered the English language, is universally-recognized, and there is a Wiki page on it, So it make sense to use it here.

Also, the reason there are so many saves by me one after the other at the beginning of the page's history is because my toddler grandson is staying here. To avoid having him accidentally delete my work, I save every time I leave the computer tonight. Better safe than sorry <g> User:rooster613

Contents

[edit] Hebrew letters

I do not know how to do Hebrew letters in Wiki. If somebody reading this does, then please add them to the section explaining the meaning of the mantra. (Leave the transliterations of the names of the letters, for those who cannot read Hebrew). Thank you! User:rooster613

See User:Jfdwolff/Hebrew. Use the ampersand, then the code as mentioned. Write from left to right - the browser will understand the text direction (e.g. nun first, then chet etc etc). Spaces are as normal. JFW | T@lk 10:27, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Thank you -- I just did it, looks fine. What I needed was the table of Hebrew letters, which your link provided. Rooster613 14:53, 29 September 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

[edit] Haskoma from Rav Moshe Feinstein

I presume you meant to write 1984 not 1994 here ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na_Nach_Nachma#Controversies unless this was another letter from heaven since Reb Moshe "ascended to the heavenly academy" in 1986) .:-)

  • Yes, it was a typo, should be 1984. Rooster613 14:24, 29 September 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

[edit] More forgery claims? Got References?

Re: edits by anonymous person User:80.178.15.203 that were reverted to my previous version: This person appears to be a Breslover in opposition to the Na-Nachers. Some of his/her points were possibly valid although not N-POV in style and not backed up by any sources (hence the revert). However, noting the writer's objections, I did modify "popular among Breslover Hasidim" to "popular among some groups of Breslover Hasidim" which should take care of that problem. Regarding forgeries: If indeed somebody claimed the approbation from Feinstein was a forgery, I would be willing to include that opinion under the Feinstein part of Controversies if there is a real reference to cite and not just an anonymous drive-by. Ditto for the same writer's claim that somebody "admitted" to forging the letter in an article in Maariv ten years ago. Who is this "somebody"? If anybody knows the refs. for this article, we could footnote that also. Although we should also note that anybody could claim to have done this to discredit Rabbi Odesser. I'm trying to keep this page N-POV while recognizing that there are controversies. I myself am not a Na-Nacher although I have no real objections to using the mantra, either. Rooster613 14:24, 29 September 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

In some mainstream Orthodox circles, the "Na Nach Nachma" is considered somewhat mishuga. Some guys passing out Breslov pamphlets near my school, Yeshiva University, weren't open NightcapNachmaners (people who wear the huge yarmulkes with "Na Nach Nachma"s on them, usually white caps)...they were black-hat, black coat guys. This is considered more authentic by such people. Unfortunately, my source for this isn't a book--but a rabbi, so I can't put in the article, right? I'm new at this.Yodamace1

  • Thank you for your comments, and welcome to Wikipedia. I'm aware of the controversies. However, what "mainstream Orthodox circles" think is not the purpose of the article. After all, mainstream circles have always considered Breslov (even non-Na-Nachers) as a bit meshugga. (Mostly because we go off by ourselves to meditate in the forests... but that's another issue.) Even when he was alive, Rebbe Nachman was criticized for accepting all types of people at his table, including the local meshugganers. <g> Now, regarding this article, the purpose is to explain the history and meaning of the mantra in a factual, neutral way. This is an encyclopedia, not a debate forum. However, we can discuss the issues here in "discussion" and people do read the discussions, so your rabbi's opinion is noted. In reply, I ask: Is this mantra any more meshugga than Lubovitch children shouting "We Want Moschiach Now!" cheers or bumper stickers that ask "Did you put on tefillin today?" (I just made this into 2 paragraphs to sub-divide topics here) Rooster613 01:38, 3 October 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

[edit] more on the white yarmulkes

As for the white yarmulkes, I have one of those, more as a collector's item, although I have worn it on occasion. (Perhaps I should take a photo and add it to the article.) I have always preferred a large knitted yarmulke that covers my whole head. The Na-Nacher version is actually a modification of a traditional white yarmulke that has been worn for centuries in Jerusalem, which in turn is a modification of the medieval hats with the little ball on top -- hence the tassle. People wear them for group identity -- and is that any different than wearing a Zionist yarmulke that says "Yerushalayim" or some other slogan or, for that matter, one with pictures of cartoon characters like the kids wear nowadays? Breslov does not have a dress code (other than halachic zniut, tzitzit, etc.) so there is no requirement to dress in black like the Mitnagdim/Haredim. After all, if Jews wanted to be really, really authentic, we should all wear long robes, since that is how Abraham and Moses dressed. <g> Rooster613 14:10, 30 September 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

Well, I'm not trying to make it a debate forum. And if you're asking about if it's more meshuga the the messianic Lubavitcher belief, that is also considered quite mishuga. I'll quote from the Chabad-Lubavitch page:

Berger asserts that a few Chabad followers hold Schneerson to be God incarnate, and that they worship him as such. Responses from various Jewish spokespeople have been aimed specifically at the last two expressions of messianism. Longtime critic Allan Nadler (2001) and Rabbi Chaim Dov Keller (1998) warn that Chabad has moved its focus from God to Schneerson to the point that they "worship him".

  • Well again, in these cases, there are specific rabbis who have taken public stands and can therefore be quoted. So far all I've seen re: this page is vague urban legends. I did, however, provide a link to a site that takes the stance that the letter was forged. If there are other such refs, either on paper on the Net, I have no objection to referencing them. Rooster613 02:35, 2 October 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

So I thought it might be appropriate, sorry if it wasn't...I don't think there's a mention of the 'NachmanNightcap' in the article, you seem to know a lot about it, maybe you should post about it. Yodamace1

  • I plan to take a photo of mine and upload it as common domain, but probably not until after Rosh Hashanah. Meanwhile I added a text ref today, which, because my computer timed out and I had to log back in, did not show up with my Rooster613 sig, but the text of that edit is mine. (Apparently the "remember me" option does not work right on my system.) Rooster613 02:35, 2 October 2005 (UTC)Rooster613
    • OK, I uploaded the photo as Image:Na-nach-nachma-yarmulke.jpg and that went OK, it's up there -- but for some reason the link to this page does not work.  ??? Rooster613 18:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)Rooster613
      • Photo file was apparently corrupted en route -- I uploaded it again and it works fine now Rooster613 04:28, 24 October 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

You put in your edit that Chareidi disparagingly call such Breslovers NightcapNachmaners. I honestly didn't know that, thought I made it up. I'll stop using the term, sorry about that. Yodamace1

  • I was taking my cue from you <g> But if you are the only one using the term, then the sentence is not authentic, so I removed it. The part you added to the Controversies is fine now -- you are citing the opinion of specific rabbis. Very good addition! This will be my last work here for a while -- tomorrow is erev RoshHashanah... shanah tovah! Rooster613 01:34, 3 October 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

Thanks! Shanah tovah! And thanks for the niggun advice. I've been to Kiryas Yoel for a wedding, but that's a bit out of the way...Williamsburg, here I come! Yodamace1

[edit] Book Cover Image

I upladed a scan of the cover of "The Letter from Heaven: Rebbe Nachman's Song" and linked it here. My justification for the fair use of this image is that the book is discussed and referenced on this page. Rooster613 14:32, 7 December 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

[edit] Revert of Tanchum's edits

I reverted the material added by Tanchum in the Controversies section because it is not NPOV, being very disparaging of the people who use the mantra, essentially calling them inauthentic ignoramuses. This was obviously posted by an anti-mantra person as debunking opinion. This is the deleted text:

The Na Nach Nachma phrase, derives neither from any of the writings in the entire canon of Breslov literature, nor from the traditions of Breslov itself, nor the Bible, Talmud, or code of Jewish Law. For this reason, "Na Nach Nachma" cannot be represented as an authentic expression of Breslov doctrine--precisely because Breslov chassidus is based, like any legitimate Jewish movement, on classical Jewish sources. Hardly everyone within what can be called "mainstream", traditionally Chassidic Breslov communities believes that the "petek ha-geulah" is an authentic writing from Rebbe Nachman. Most treat the subject with passive obliviousness. At this point, "Na-Nach" is more of a rallying cry for Israeli and Sephardic returnees to Judaism, although it has caught on amongst some of the disaffected American youth who come to Jerusalem, or people who are not yet familiar enough with Breslov literature to distinguish between what is authentic and what is not.

The points are already made in the article that the mantra is controversial, that not all Breslovers use it and some actively oppose it, that some claim the note is a forgery, that it does not date to Rebbe Nachman himself nor did he use it, that this is a sub-group and not all of Breslov, etc. -- without the negative polemics of this text. It is not the role of Wikipedia to decide what is or is not "authentic" or "legitimate" in theological controversies, only to present the facts as they are. Like it or not, there is a group of people who call themselves Breslovers who use this mantra, and that must be respected in the text. I myself am neither for nor against the mantra, merely watching this page to try and keep it NPOV... Rooster613 19:36, 10 March 2006 (UTC)Rooster613

[edit] Regarding rabbi Moshe Feinsteins "approbation"

Rabbi Odessa was a Mishulach; he came to the US to collect Tzedaka. He went to Rabbi Feinstein (who, incidentally, was a non-chassidic rosh yeshiva)and asked him for a "hamlatza" letter that people could be presented with, to help him raise money (this is a standard practice of people collecting tzedahka). he showed the letter to rabbi feinstein while meeting him. Rabbi Feinstein's hamlatza does not imply legitimatacy at all; it was merely a polite "and when he was here he showed me something unique he has in his posession"... Ask any of rabbi Feinsteins sons or Talmidim, they would concur. The legitimacy of the "petek" being from heaven is a bubbehmeiseh.. Ther person that inserted the paper addmitted to doing it before his death.gevaldik! 16:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Again I ask: WHO is/was this mysterious "person who inserted it (the petek)" in the book, if indeed such a thing ever happened? So far, nobody has named a name, it just keeps coming back as hearsay. If there is a real source with a real person taking credit/blame, we can add it to the Controversies, but so far all I see is anti-Odesser urban legend -- in this case, from an unsigned comment by who-knows-who... Rooster613 04:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)Rooster613

just signed my original comment, im still new to wikipedia and i forget someitmes. gevaldik! 16:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

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