User talk:Musik-chris

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[edit] Xuxa

I'm sorry. I thought I had provided the transcription. I probably made a preview and did't save it. Here it is:

• European Portuguese
  • Xuxa: /'ʃu.ʃɐ/
  • Maria da Graça Meneghel: /mɐ.'ɾi.ɐ dɐ 'gɾa.sɐ mɨ.'nɛ.gɛɫ/
  • Maria das Graças Meneghel: /mɐ.'ɾi.ɐ dɐʃ 'gɾa.sɐʃ mɨ.'nɛ.gɛɫ/

• Brazilian Portuguese
  • Xuxa: /'ʃu.ʃa
  • Maria da Graça Meneghel: /ma.'ɾi.ɐ da 'gɾa.sɐ me.'nɛ.gɛw/
  • Maria das Graças Meneghel: /ma.'ɾi.ɐ das 'gɾa.sɐs me.'nɛ.gɛw/

• Notes:

1. The diferences between European Port. and Brazilian Port. are bolded.
2. I don't know who is Xuxa and I've never heard her name spoken
3. I'm Portuguese so my Brazilian transcription can be wrong
4. Meneghel is a foreign name and probably a transcription by someone who speeks German (?) would be more correct. The transcription I gave is the one pronounced in both Portuguese dialects as if it was a normal Portuguese word

Glad I can help. If you wish to have more transcriptions just make a list and ask me. Gameiro 16:11, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much! You did help me – and you even gave more information than I expected. I know that it is difficult to make an IPA transcription for a name, even if it is one in your mother tongue. I don’t know either how to pronounce any German name. But I’ve got a notion that your transcriptions are fairly accurate. If you ever need help concerning any German issue, perhaps a transcription or anything else, don’t hesitate to ask me. Christopher ♒ 17:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Beate Uhse-Rotermund

You changed the transcription of her name from [ˈuːsə] to [ˈuːzə]. Do you speak German natively? Is the "s" really voiced? Also, is the "i" in Köstlin really long rather than short? Did you happen listen to the pronunciation file I made?

I'm personally rather skeptical to keeping any form of IPA unless dealing with very unintuitive spellings, like Gorbachev or Khruschev. Uhse's name doesn't feel all that unintuitive even for English-speakers unless the idea is to get them to actually sound German.

Peter ^Isotalo 18:45, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I am a German native speaker. I am certain that in Standard High German “Uhse” has to be pronounced with a voiced “s” and that the “i” in “Köstlin” is long. I looked up both names in a pronunciation dictionary. I also listened to the file you uploaded. Would you like me to make a recording of the correct pronunciation by a German native speaker?

To the second point you mentioned: Who are we to say which non-English name will be pronounced correctly by English-speakers and which will not? I don’t know how important these phonetic transcriptions are. To many users they seem unintelligible. Still I would keep them as I don’t think that they annoy anyone. Christopher ♒ 19:23, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Please do record one. A native speaker is always preferable as long as some effort is invested to make the sound quality decent.

What I was trying to get is that an English-speaker shouldn't really be expected to pronounce it correctly because most will get it wrong anyway, though it's preferable to get them to teach them that it's "Gorbachov" and not "Gorbachev", despite the spelling. I personally don't like more IPA than actually necessary.

Peter ^Isotalo 22:10, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Done. I hope the upload worked and the quality is decent enough. Have a listen. Christopher ♒ 23:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Why do I still get your file although I uploaded a new one? Christopher ♒ 00:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I admit that I’m a bit of an IPA fan because it helped me a lot to improve my pronunciation of various languages. If you basically know how to speak a language and just want to look up a single vowel quality or quantity, it’s nice to have a dictionary or an encyclopedia with IPA transcriptions. Sometimes this is even more helpful than a native speaker who has an odd accent or doesn’t even know how to pronounce the word. You’re probably right saying that it is neither possible nor sensible to pronounce any name in the “original” manner when speaking your native tongue. Yet I think that it is interesting to know how a word should be pronounced, so that you are able to decide how much you want to and can approach the genuine pronunciation in everyday use. Christopher ♒ 23:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

A very good recording indeed. Maybe a tad lower volume (could be me, though), but otherwise superbly articulated. Never mind my screw-ups at Commons, btw. I stumbled on a feature I previously wasn't aware of. The file tends to lag and send you the old files because they're cached or something. Try wiping it and see if it helps. You might be interesed in replacing other recordings of German names that I've made, btw.

Compromises on IPA-inclusion must always be reasonably pragamatic. If there wasn't, like, ten other factoids to compete with in the lead, it wouldn't be a biggie. In Beate Uhse I agree that it's not a problem. With Stalin and Lenin, it definetly was one or at least getting out hand. Examples like Hong Kong and forcing all those superflous names on the article, and then starting a separate "how to pronounce Hong Kong"-spin-off are even worse. Sigh...

From what I can hear of your thoughts I could really recommend that you try to help out with German pronunciation at the Wikionaries. There's alot of them alrady, but so many are left to do. If not of every single word, then at least the more difficult or less intuitive ones.

Peter ^Isotalo 01:48, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! It’s a pleasure to hear that it was worth the effort. As you may have seen, 50 % of the work that I’ve done at Commons up to now consisted in creating my account ;-) I’m gonna take a couple of minutes to listen to some German pronunciation files to see if they need to be replaced. In case you have recorded them, it can’t be urgent. If you ever find a file that should be re-recorded or if you’re unhappy with your own pronunciation in any case, I’d be glad to help. There’s always a couple of minutes for a small sound file, I guess.

I see your point about the IPA transcriptions. Pragmatism is the key. I agree that in the examples you’ve given, transcriptions would complete the chaos (or do so, like in the Hong Kong article). I also agree that transcriptions should be omitted (or placed at the very end of the article) in cases in which it seems to be impossible to include IPA in a more or less discreet manner. Although I like IPA transcriptions, one should probably not become a fanatic ;-)
Christopher ♒ 04:46, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

PS: I’m going to have a look at the Wiktionaries too. Thanks for the hint.