Talk:Musical form

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[edit] musical form interchangeable with musical genre?

Does anybody really use the phrase "musical form" interchangably with "musical genre"? I can't recall ever coming across an instance of that use. However, I think that people do mean two different things by "musical form":

  1. The structure of a movement as determined by arrangement of thematic material and key centres (binary form, sonata form, rondo and so on)
  2. A classification determined by overall multi-movement structure, instrumentation and/or function (opera, ballet, sonata, concerto, symphonic poem and so on)

I think this would be a more sensible way of dividing up the article than is done at present. Does anybody agree, or am I being silly? --Camembert

Well, Encyclopaedia Britannica does; see its entry for "Musical form".
mikkalai 25 Nov 2003
I don't have the EB to hand, and I'm not really sure what you're saying it "does", but anyway, I was probably a bit too simplistic with my above post. I'm going to fiddle with the article a bit. --Camembert
Just google for "musical form", it will pop up. Anyway, I am just a layman; the article was missing, so I created a stub. Feel free to do anything with, but leave references to ballet and dance, necessary to my subwikiweb of articles Mikkalai 20:28, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Ah right, found the EB thing. I think it agrees both with what you and I said originally, actually - we were just using words to mean slightly different things. Anyway, I've edited the article somewhat, and it seems better to me now, but it's a tricky thing, and I'm sure it can take further improvement. --Camembert

[edit] Proposed outline

  1. Intro
  2. Single-movement forms: sectional vs developmental, developmental vs variational, extensional vs intentional
    1. Sectional forms, the larger unit (form) is built from various smaller clear-cut units (sections), combinational, sort of like stacking legos.
    2. Developmental forms, larger unit (form) is built from small bits of material given different presentations and combinations, usually progressive.
    3. Variational forms, larger unit (form) is built from sections treated to one type of presentation at a time, but varying succesively.
  3. Multi-movement "forms"

Hyacinth 20:27, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC), User:Hyacinth/Outlines.

Hi! If you want to expand that outline you could explain to us what each of those "vs." things are. I am a musical layman. Jaberwocky6669 18:05, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC)

Ta-da. Hyacinth 05:47, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ta-da as in, "Duh, you're really dumb." or "Hey! That's a really great idea!" Lol Jaberwocky6669 16:30, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)

The second one, like I Dream of Genie, see article and outline above. Hyacinth 21:36, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Definition

Is the string quartet a form or a group? Should it be in one, the other, or both categories? The article currently states:
  • "A piece of music for four players of stringed instruments may be in any form, but if it is simply a String Quartet (with or without a subtitle) it is usually in four movements, with a large-scale structure similar to that of a symphony. The outer movements are typically fast, the inner movements in classical quartet form are a slow movement and a dance movement of some sort (e.g., minuet, scherzo, furiant), in either order."
Musical form states that form is also:
  • "a generic type of composition such as the symphony or concerto."
And later
  • "Forms of chamber music are defined by instrumentation (string quartet, piano quintet and so on). The structure of a chamber work is typically similar to a sonata."
all of which implies that string quartet may be legitimately categorized as a Category:Musical form. Hyacinth 02:36, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
See also: Category talk:Musical forms. Hyacinth 02:52, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Form should be defined as the organizing principle in music, or how musical ideas/notes/etc. are organized within a whole. I must admit fault here for not actually checking the article Musical form before making changes; this was something I assumed. Something like a string quartet is an entity that exhibits form, not one that exists as form. The above example should be rephrased: "String quartets in the Classical and Romantic as well as symphonies and concertos, usually belonged in the sonata genre consisting of four movements....." String quartets, symphonies, concertos in any time period, especially within the last hundred years, certainly have no obligation to follow sonata form, much less any specific form; for example, a theoretical string quartet consisting entirely of fugues. The statment defining form as "a generic type of composition such as the symphony or concerto" is misleading; string quartets, symphonies, and concertos are more accurately described as a type of instrumentation, orchestration, or arrangement, something not at all related to form except in loose correlations.
This statement "Forms of chamber music are defined by instrumentation (string quartet, piano quintet and so on). The structure of a chamber work is typically similar to a sonata" is confusing in that its language is not clearly differentiating between a form or structure of music or a form of chamber music, i.e., a form of instrumentation, or way of organizing instruments within an ensemble. The statement that "chamber music is typically similar to a sonata", again, is vague; it is describing a specific phenomena found in Classical and Romantic chamber music. --bleh fu 06:59, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)
There is a distinction between "should be" and "currently is". Since one goal of Wikipedia is to accurately describe reality, since people do describe instrumentation using the word form, then Wikipedia should describe this practice as it currently is. If you have a source that argues that things should be different, feel free to add that POV (point of view).
Regarding the categorization, what are the best alternatives to "Category:Musical forms" for instrumentations? "Category:Types of ensembles"? Hyacinth 23:18, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

To quote String quartet:

Also, to quote Musical ensemble:

A musical ensemble is, by definition, a group of three or more musicians who gather to perform music.
There are several denominations of ensembles according with their size and composition.
The terms duet, trio, quartet, quintet, sextet, septet, octet, and nonet are used to describe groups of two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, and nine musicians, respectively. In classical music, these arrangements are commonly referred to as chamber music. A common quartet is the string quartet, composed of two violins, a viola and a violoncello. The most usual string quintet is similar to the string quartet, but with the viola duplicated. In some cases, though, it is the violoncello that is duplicated. See: String trio, String sextet, string . A piano quintet is usually a string quartet plus a piano. Another fairly common grouping in classical music is the wind quintet, usually consisting of flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon and horn.

This however is a bit confusing: an ensemble is at least three musicians, but yet duet is mentioned here as a form of chamber music, a music, which I assume is played by an ensemble. The question is then, where does something like a string quartet, symphony, concerto, or in reference to the above quote, a cello sonata, fall under: Musical form, or otherwise? I apologize if this is all very pedantic. I would like to hear other people's POV. Thanks, --bleh fu 03:14, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)

  • I spoke to a friend of mine who is far more in the know than I, and he related the following to me:
    • Musical form: sonata-allegro form, ternary form, rondo, through-composed versus strophic, fugue
    • Musical genre: cello sonata, symphony, concerto, string quartet
    • Musical ensemble: piano and cello duet, orchestra, orchestra with soloist, string quartet
Obviously there is some ambiguity with terms that can fall under more than one category, but there is none with each of the terms within these contexts. i.e., string quartet can refer to a piece of music with an instrumentation of 2 vln, vla, and vc, or can refer to the ensemble itself, but there should not be any ambiguity between these definitions. --bleh fu 08:00, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Art of Track

If there are any composers browsing this page who's minds are open to a new musical form that could rise to popularity, I invented a pretty neat way to arrange musical material into a form called a "Track" in case you're intrested,

If you were to define the parts in variables it would be like this:

    the three-part polyphonic form is:

rest ;  a  ;  b  ;  c1 ;  c1 ;  a  ;  b  ;  c1 ;  c1 ;  d  ;  a  ;  b  ;
  b  ;  b  ;  a  ;  c2 ;  c2 ;  a  ;  b  ;  c2 ;  c2 ;  d2 ;  b  ;  a  ;
  a3 ;  a3 ;  b3 ;  c3 ;  c3 ;  a3 ;  b3 ;  c3 ;  c3 ;  d3 ;  a3 ; b3  ; 

    and the two-part is:

rest ;  a  ;  b  ;  c1 ;  c1 ;  a  ;  b  ;  c1 ;  c1 ;  d  ;  a  ;  b  ;
  b  ;  b  ;  a  ;  c2 ;  c2 ;  a  ;  b  ;  c2 ;  c2 ;  d2 ;  b  ;  a  ;

The "numbers" denote contrapunctial variations, and, if omitted, are literally the same in every case the letter-variable is mentioned. Regadless of it's place up-or-down. The "A" part is always eight measures as is the "B". The "C" part is 8 measures ( or less depending on how many times it repeats ), and the "D" part, along with it's "2" and "3" counterpoints is 16 measures long.

A composer can also arrage three pieces like this in a row to make what's called a "Supertrack", But remebmer then that it might be poor taste to "swap" the theme ["A"] between Voice1 and Voice 2, until the third track is played.

And at last, to make a piece like this cover 30 minutes (!) of time, there is form called "Megatrack", in which one arranges three Supertracks in a row. That is an absoluly enormous triosonata-like piece of what is acually Nine three minute to three-and-a half minute Single Tracks.

                 --Peter C. Conn
                     musical aka, Lord Ba'al-zeda'aq

P.S.: They're great teamed together with fugues to. I myself am the author of several "Track and Fugues", as well as several Supertracks

[edit] This article is hard to understand

I'd like to "de-mystify" this article so it's more friendly to the person who wants to know what musical form is. Begining the first section with the sentence "Forms and formal detail may be described as sectional or developmental, developmental or variational, syntactical or processual (Keil 1966), embodied or engendered, extensional or intensional (Chester 1970), and associational or hierarchical (Lerdahl 1983)", and you've lost most musicians, let alone non-musicians who come to the encyclopedia wanting to learn something about musical form.J Lorraine 05:02, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] citing "The Retreat of Reason"

While I haven't read the book which is being cited, it appears (from reviews) to be about politically correct language in Britain, which seems rather incongruous as a source for this article. If no one objects, I am going to remove both the sentence and the citation. (The current sentence with citation reads: "In fact, pop music is much more complex in terms of musical form than all types of classical music (Browne, A. The Retreat of reason, 2006).") J Lorraine 07:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Musical forms in various avantgarde/popular music works

A broad perspective: several works by various avantgarde artists (also notable in the mainstream popular music) usually regarded as ambient, cosmic, new age, electronic music, such as Brian Eno, Tangerine Dream.... can't be cathegorized as "songs" or simply "instrumentals", becouse such music features complex structures and patterns that can be referred to as musical forms; examples: Eno's (Discreet music or the long cosmic compositions by TD. Dr. Who 03:11, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

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