Talk:Music of Azerbaijan

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Contents 1 OKay you are Making information up 2 Further verification of Dishonest Conduct 3 mistake in the text 4 The Point is that the Source was not Grossly warped in referance 5 "Other" Central Asian?

[edit] OKay you are Making information up

I read the source you used for your claim. I will correct the title.

[1] This is what the source says:...that Azeri music is very different from the musics of other Central Asian nations, and that it takes its cues from Iran (which is located right to the south and which possesses a rich and very popular classical tradition).

It is part of the Iranian Music region. Where does it mention Persians by the way user:Grandmaster?

By the way you complain about my sources; you should practice what you preach. 72.57.230.179

[edit] Further verification of Dishonest Conduct

Look at what the wording you, user:Grandmaster manipulated out of this ciation here; [[2]]

Your wording is as follows; Azerbaijan is part of the Caucasian music region, but also shares musical similarities with Central Asian Turkic nations and Persian music. [3]

Even look at the talk history is shows you are being dishonest in your assertions; [[4]]

I would also like to know who created the stub for the Caucasian music region? There is nothing. It would not happen to be you would it user:Grandmaster?

The source you identified as the center for your thesis clearly states that Azari music is in the same category as the music of Iran. I also argued that the music of the Caucuses is the same as the music of Iran. What do you have to say for yourself user:Grandmaster?

Once again; [5] This is what the source says:'...that Azeri music is very different from the musics of other Central Asian nations, and that it takes its cues from Iran (which is located right to the south and which possesses a rich and very popular classical tradition).

72.57.230.179

First off, that article is not an academic source and is written by a journalist who admits that he has very little knowledge about the Azeri music. Second, I did not mind mentioning connections between Azeri and Persian music, but there’s no need to do it twice in the same sentence. Also, please adhere to civility rules of Wkipedia when discussing the article content with other editors. You’ve been warned about this countless times. Grandmaster 15:09, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I have rewritten the lead based both on that website and a print source I have which covers the topic. I did not take the website's claim "that Azeri music is very different from the musics of other Central Asian nations, and that it takes its cues from Iran (which is located right to the south and which possesses a rich and very popular classical tradition)." This is because the other claims to have based this entirely on the fact that a tourism company website compares Azeri music to jazz, which that author feels is unlike Central Asian music. Furthermore, the author goes on in the next paragraph to claim "Lonely Planet's take on Azeri mugam music is, apparently, right on the mark, however. Susan Cornnell's article, "Baku Diary: The Music Scene," notes, "I've seen many Azerbaijanis listen to a tune only once and then be able to play it back, improvising and improving upon it.", thereby showing that it may in fact be appropriate to compare Azeri music to jazz. Of course, all that is irrelevant because the relationship between Azeri and other nearby musics is totally unrelated to jazz. That webpage makes some perfectly logical claims about Azeri and Armenian music, and I have incorporated that into the lead. Tuf-Kat 03:45, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] mistake in the text

"... The people of the country are of Central Asian and Turkic descent ..."

Are there any proofs for this sentence? As far as I can tell, there are strong arguments against it!

• "... A previous analysis of mtDNA variation in the Caucasus found that Indo-European-speaking Armenians and Turkic-speaking Azerbaijanians were more closely related genetically to other Caucasus populations (who speak Caucasian languages) than to other Indo-European or Turkic groups, respectively. Armenian and Azerbaijanian therefore represent language replacements, possibly via elite dominance involving primarily male migrants, in which case genetic relationships of Armenians and Azerbaijanians based on the Y-chromosome should more closely reflect their linguistic relationships. ..." [6]

• "... The eastern Eurasian contribution to the west, in contrast, is negligible (fig. 1), in agreement with HVS-I sequence data in Turkish populations (Calafell et al. 1996; Comas et al. 1996, 1998). This pattern may seem surprising in view of the historically documented repeated waves of Altaic-speaking nomads (e.g., Turks, Huns, and Mongols) starting in the 3rd century A.D., who traveled from east to west, imposing Altaic languages in some western regions (e.g., Anatolia and Azerbaijan), probably through an elite-dominance process. ..." [7]

• "... Both studies have shown that Armenians and Azerbaijanians are more closely related genetically to their geographic neighbors in the Caucasus and not to their linguistic neighbors elsewhere. In addition, both studies have demonstrated that Caucasian populations are genetically intermediate between European and Near Eastern populations, but that they are more closely related to European than to Near Eastern populations. The genetic results thus suggest that both the Armenian and Azerbaijanian languages represent language replacements in the Caucasus. The origins of the Armenian language are obscure, but the Azerbaijanian language was probably introduced in the 11th century AD by central Asian nomads (Johanson 1998). A common mechanism of language replacement is elite dominance (Renfrew 1991), whereby the language of a small invading group is adopted by the larger resident population, either because it is imposed by force or because it is considered socially desirable to speak the language of the invaders. ..." [8]

Just to name a few ... therefore, I've removed the wrong sentense ...

Tajik 13:57, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

This whole article needs to rewritten and expanded using authoritative sources. Right now it’s based on non-academic sources. Grandmaster 14:54, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

(via edit conflict with Grandmaster, with whom I agree) It's a claim cited to the source that makes it. Therefore, I've reverted your removal. If you'd like to work in contradictory sources, please do so in a way that satisfies WP:NPOV. Tuf-Kat 14:56, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Right now, your version is based on non-academic sources and represents the usual, well-known panturkist nonsense we've already met in many other articles.

The sources I mentioned above are academic AND authoritative. The first one is a publication of the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) at the National Library of Medicine (NLM). It was written by academics of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany. The second source is an article of the American Journal of Human Genetics, published by academics and experts. The third source is also an academic and authoritative source, published by the Max-Planck-Gesellschaft [9].

If you do not agree with these sources, you have to come up with better sources. For now, these are reliable sources clearly disproving the claim that "the population of Azerbaijan descended from Central-Asian Turks" ... Thus revert.

Tajik 17:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

The third one appears to be an abstract of the same study as the first, and the second needs a password for me to view it. In any case, I'm fine with what's there now (well, no I'm not, because the whole article sucks pretty bad, but the lead fits in well). Tuf-Kat 17:36, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Point is that the Source was not Grossly warped in referance

The source was used to make a totally biased and opposing statement; that is my point. I even pointed this out to user:Grandmaster. It is all in the articles edit history where we make comment boxes. USer:Grandmaster it has been made perfectly clear to you that Iranaian does not mean Persian, but you insist on making this wrong corilation. 72.57.230.179

User:Grandmaster that is the other point the article wa snot academic and you have always insisted that academic articles be used. That is why I civily remind you to practive what you preach. Treat other editors with the curtisy to expect yourself. 72.57.230.179

[edit] "Other" Central Asian?

"Azerbaijan's mugam....different from other central Asian countries..."

Azerbaijan is not a central Asian country. I don't think that it could even be agreed upon whether Caucasus is in Western Asia, Eastern Europe, or the Middle East. In the middle of those three. Azzarzurna 19:37, 16 March 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Azzarzurna (talk • contribs) 19:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC).

right point. azerbaijan is europe. correct it -- 194.158.205.102 06:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)