Talk:Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Muslim scholars article assessment section, a WikiProject related to the Muslim scholars. note:the project includes non-Muslim scholars.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

This article is part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Salafs article assessment section, a WikiProject related to the Salaf. It has been rated - on the quality scale.

The article had been copied wholesale from the Encyclopedia Brittanica 11th edition and was seriously out of date. I rewrote it and added such modern references as I could find online. Further collaboration on the references, especially the Arabic references, would be appreciated. Zora 23:55, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Is "tafir al kabir" and "tafsir at-tabari" the same thing? --Striver 19:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Moving the list of English translations 2 What next? 3 Requested move 3.1 Voting 4 edits

[edit] Moving the list of English translations

Striver, I want all those translations in the SAME PLACE. If someone who reads only English looks for Tabari, he/she is not going to click on a link with an Arabic title. There is NO NEED for the breakout articles. You should not create a breakout article unless the main article is getting very very long and it makes more sense to move some info out. Breaking an already tiny article into stubs is just making more work for the reader. It is reader-hostile. Zora 07:14, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I dont agree. If someone wants information abuout the book, the person will go into the book link and find it. Please, could you revert me again? --Striver 07:47, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What next?

So Tabaristan is now part of Iran? What was it part of in the days of Tabari? I suppose: The Sunni Arab Shining Oppressed-by-Persians Republic of al-Zora-iyah? C'mon, let's be creative. Let's make up another fictitious entity for Zora to dump her Iranophobic infested hatred shit on.--Zereshk 03:40, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

It was part of the Abbasid caliphate, which is not Iran. According to LeStrange, the province was called Tabaristan for the first few centuries of the caliphate. Then the term Mazanderan gradually came into use. (LeStrange, 1905, p. 369) Zora 06:04, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Wrong again. It was "Abbasid ruled Iran". Please learn.--Zereshk 00:39, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

"Iran" did exist way before the half-Iranian Abbasids time:

Image:Zora says Iran did not exist--The Persians.jpg

Book is: "The Persians", Gene R. Garthwaite, 2005.

--Zereshk 05:42, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Thought experiments:

• I have an axe. It's the same axe I've had for 30 years -- or is it? I've changed the head of the axe 4 times and the handle 5 times. Is it the same axe?

Questions of identity and continuity are not so simple. I'll bet you think you have a self, too. Zora 08:52, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Right. If that were the case, nobody could get condemned in any court if the accused presented such an argument ("oh your excellency, but all my cells have changed since I killed her. The old ones have died and been replaced by new ones, 4 times! I'm thus not the murderer any more"). Im smarter than you are, Zora. And I've taken more philosophy classes than you.

I gave you a scan. How stubborn can one be? When will you stop trying to maliciously imply that Iran somehow invaded Tabaristan, Khuzestan. etc?--Zereshk 09:51, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and by the way, it's properly called a Gedanken Experiment. :)--Zereshk 09:53, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

---

I'm NOT implying that Iran invaded Tabaristan. I believe it was part of Ehranshar under the Sassanids, but it's not clear if it was called Tabaristan then. According to LeStrange, Tabar meant "high mountain" in the local dialect and Tabaristan would be "land of high mountains". In my copy of the Sahrestaniha i Eransahr, the area is described thus:

Cities were built in Padisxwargar, either Armayil or by the order of Armayil were built by the mountaineers, who from Azi Dahag acquired the dominion of the mountains.

I found Padisxwargar in Isfandiyār's Tārīh-i Tabaristān [1] (cool site, check it out!), where it is called Farshwádgar.

It's not at all clear that Padisxwargar had exactly the same boundaries as the Abbasid Tabaristan.

As to whether or not there was an "Iran" under the Abbasids -- well, there was certainly an area that had once belonged to the Sassanids. There was also an area (smaller) where people continued to speak Persian. Saying that this was Iran as it is known today is arguable. It seems self-evident to you that the "nation" extends far far back into the past, but it doesn't seem at all evident to me. I see continuity in language and tradition, however. Zora 12:27, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] edits

I recateqorized a bit, and didnt delete anything except the editorial material that is already presented in the relevant books and has nothing to do in this biographical article.--Striver 14:18, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

somebody readed the parts moved to History of the Prophets and Kings and The commentary on the Qur'an (book). Those parts to dont belong to this article, its like clogging up the Muhammad article with the differetn editions of the Qur'an. Editions of a book belong to the book article, if there is such, and not the biography of the writer. Now, if there was no article for the books it would be correct to add them to the biography of the writer, but not when they do have a separet article. --Striver 13:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)