Talk:Mughal Empire

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[edit] The 'Mughal descendents in Bangladesh section' is a farce. I did an indepth search on this and is nothing but complete fabrication. Should someone want to add this section here, they should do so with citations or create a new section for it.

Excuse me, but where did you get the facts and data? Did you go over 'original' records to disprove it? Mirza Nali WAS the crown prince before Bahadur Shah. It is written clearly in Khwaja Nizami's book from 1922. The descendants today do have family trees showing their family relations with Akbar Shah's sons. Think back and see that the Mughals were pretty influential during the 1830s to 1840s. This could very well be a possibility.

[edit] Please add Saiyid Brothers Wikipedia link in Decline of Mughal Empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiyid_Brothers

If anybody thinks of moving this page to something with a slightly different spelling, please deal with the double redirects which may result. --Henrygb 01:03, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] How come Humayun be listed among the "Great" mughal rulers?

I find it strange that Humayun is listed in the table with his reign as a Mughal emperor from 1530 to 1556. Can a person without a territory to rule be considered an emperor!!! Giving Humayun that reign would be patently misleading. Humayun had to flee India and live as a refugee in Persia and also as a wanderer during that time, when Sher Shah was ruling India.

Himayuan was great mughal ruler . althought he loses his whole empire to the hand of sher shah but he regained his empire before his death , himayun is one of the greatest mughal emperor , do not consider this article to be the only source of information .

I believe that he really was a ruler of the Mughal empire. I dont see any real reasons why her shouldn't be!!!

[edit] Why is Bahadur shah zafar ignored?

He was the last of the known mughal emperors(namesake albiet) who actually took part in the 1857 sepoy mutiny alongwith Rani Lakshmibai and Tatya Tope

[edit] sher shah?

regarding the second sentence of the article: "It was largely conquered by Sher Shah during the time of Humayun, but under Akbar, it grew considerably, and continued to grow until the end of Aurangzeb's rule."

what was largely conquered? the Mogul empire? that doesn't make any sense, if he was part of the Mogul empire.
In Sher Shah's article, it claims that he was the ruler of the Mogul empire. and yet he is not on the list of emperors in this article. why not?

Who was this guy? part of the Mogul empire, or conqueror of the Mogul empire? I am so confused - Lethe | Talk

Babur's son Humayun was defeated by Sher Shah, who proceeded to usurp the throne. Humayun regained it later after Sher Shah's death. The term "Mughal" refers to a dynasty, to which Sher Shah was not related. Also Babur's conquest ended several centuries of Afghan / Afghanistani domination of North India. Sher Shah's victory briefly restored Afghan rule. Babur was proud of his non-Afghan Mongol origins, claiming descent from both Timur and Genghis Khan. Later Mughals built strong coalitions with the Afghans and many Hindu Rajputs by marrying their daughters and giving them land. The Mughal dynasty still has an official existence. Its current scion lives in Calcutta, where his ancestor Bahadur Shah was exiled by the British, and collects a pension from the Indian government.

[edit] sher shah

sher shah was a warlord of afghan origin, who defeated humayun and was briefly in charge of the mughal empire. yet sher shah was not one of the mughal emperors, though his contribution to later administrative reforms by akbar was significant.

I guess the right way to put that would be to say that he was briefly Sultan of Delhi.--iFaqeer 16:33, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)

He is credited with establishing the shortlived Sur dynasty, which collapsed after Islam Shah's death, prior to Humayun's return. Is he really credited with bringing Islam to India? I thought that was the work of Mahmood of Ghazni and the Delhi Sultanate. Leo Africanus 12:26, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I have not heard of crediting him with bringing Islam to India before; it is an absolutely ahistorical notion in any case. The common account of Islam's first encounter with India is about the small expedition from West Asia that reached Sind in 711/712 AD. The long-term influence of this encounter was however minor. It is also quite plausible that Arab merchants may have brought Islam to Southern India even before this. However, it is true that the permanent establishment of Islam as a force to reckon with in India was the work of Mahmud of Ghazni and the Delhi Sultanate.

[edit] Shah Jahan's reign

In the second paragraph

"Nur Jehan's abortive efforts to secure the throne for the prince of her choice led Shah Jahan to rebel in 1622." needs clarification.

1. Why did Nur Jehan's efforts lead to a rebellion by Shah Jahan? 2. What was he rebelling against?

Does anyone have more contextual information here?

1. Shah Jahan was originaly part of the trioka, along with Nur Jehan and her brother Asif khan, who wanted to ensure that Shah Jahan would succeed to the throne. However, there was a falling out and Nur Jehan switched her loyalities to another son of Jahangir. At this point Shah Jahan and Asif khan became allies and succesfull ensured the assencion of Shah Jehan

2. He was rebeling against Nur Jahans attempt to place his younger brother to the throne.

[edit] Moghuls and Babur were not Turks

Babur and Moghuls were not Turks. I recommend everyone to read the German discussion about the heritage of the Moghuls: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskussion:Mogulreich . Babur's ancestors were Mongols of the Berlas tribe. His mother was a direct descendant of Jingiz Khan. He was only a Turk by language. But the Timurids (Babur's royal ancestory) were partly Persian-speaking (like his forefathers Shah-Rukh and Ulugh Begh) and partly Turkic-speaking. The major line of the Timurid dynasty, meaning those who were ruling Khorasan from Herat (from Shah-Rukh to Hussein Beyqara) were native Persian-speakers. Only some minor linages - for example Omar Sheikh in Farghana - were Turkic-speaking. Babur himself married a Persian woman, and his children had also Persian wives. His grandson Akbar did not even know Chagatai Turkic. That's why he ordered to translate the "Baburnama" into Persian. The following text is a copy from the German Wikipedia, proving that the Moghuls were not Turks, but Persianized Mongols:

[edit] Die Moghulen in Indien

Baburs Sohn Humayun, aus der Ehe Baburs mit der Perserin Ayisheh Sultan Begum, (Quellen: "Afghanistan In The Course of History", Mir Gholam Muhammad Ghobar, Vol. I, ISBN: 0970796412 [1], "Humayun-Nama"), wurde zwischenzeitlich vom Paschtunen Scher Schah Suri gestürzt und musste 10 Jahre im persischen Exil verbringen. Dort heiratete er die Perserin Hamida Begum [Quellen: englische Wikipedia, externe. Link) und kovertierte zum schiitischen Islam.

(Aus einer zweiten Ehe Baburs mit einer persischen Konkubine - Deldâr Begum - entstammte seine Tochter Gulbadan Begum, eine Halbschwester Humayuns, die vor allem durch ihre Gedichte - hauptsächlich in Persisch, sowie auch zu einem geringeren Teil in Tschagataisch - bekannt ist. Zuem war sie die Verfasserin des "Humayun-Nama", der Biographie Humayuns. Die "Humayun-Nama" ist in Persisch verfasst. [2]; "Gulbadan Begum" aus Encyclopaedia Iranica)

Aus der Ehe Humayuns mit der Perserin Hamida enstammte sein Sohn und Thronfolger Akbar. Unter Akbar wurde das Persische zum Indetifikationssymbol der Moghulen in Indien, und die Persische Sprache wurde für die nächsten Jahrhunderte die Hofssprache der Dynastie (Quelle: [3]).

Akbars Nachfolger war sein Sohn Jahangir, aus der Ehe mit der armenischen Fürstentochter Mariam uz-Zamani Begum (Quellen: [4], Englische Wikipedia, [5]). Jahangir heiratet seinerseits die Perserin Nur Jahan, eine Verwandte der safawidischen Wesire in Persien (Quellen: [6], Englische Wikipedia). Ihr richtiger Name war Mihr al-Nisa; der Name "Nur-e Jahan" (Persisch: "Licht der Welt") wurde von ihrem Ehemann verliehen.

Nach Akbars Tod kam sein Sohn Giyath du-Din Khurram Khan "Schah Jahan" ("Herrscher der Welt") an die Macht. Schah Jahan war nicht aus der Ehe Abars mit Nur Jahan, sondern aus seiner ersten Ehe mit der indischen Rajput-Prinzessin Manmati (Quellen: [7], [8], Englische Wikipedia). Er war selbst mit der Perserin Arjumand Banu Begum "Mumtaz Mahal", der Cousine Nur Jahans (Zweitfrau seines Vaters; siehe oben) verheiratet (Quellen: Englische Wikipedia, [9]). Aus dieser Ehe enstammte auch der Nachfolger Schah Jahans, sein Sohn Aurangzeb. Aurangzeb heiratete Delras Banu Begum, Tochter des Persisch-stämmigen Adeligen Badi ud-Zaman Mirza Shahnawaz Khan (Quelle: Englische Wikipedia)

Den Stammbaum der Moghulen könnte man hier noch weiter fortsetzen. Jedoch würde das den Rahmen dieser Diskussion spregnen, denn erstens verloren die Mghulen spätestens nach Aurangzib ihre einst glorreiche Bedeutung. Zum zweiten dürfte auch jetzt schon klar sein, dass absolut N I C H T S an den Moghulen türkisch war. WEDER Abstammung, NOCH Kultur, Sprache oder Interessen der Moghulen waren türkisch. Im Grunde waren sie durch und durch persisch - lediglich der Name "Moghul" erinnerte noch an ihre mongolische Abstammung.

Man kann die ganze Abstammung der Moghulen auf der folgenden Seite studieren: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzhsoszy/ips/misc/mughal.html

This is not German Wikipedia, please write in English or post this somewhere on de:Mogulreich

Thanks D a Gizza ^Chat ^(c) 00:15, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

The sources in text are English. Just do your own research. Nothing about the Mughals was Turkish. Their heritage was Mongol (--> Temür --> Mongol Berlas tribe --> Jingiz Khan). Their language was Persian. Their culture was Persian. Their soldiers were Persians and Indians. Most of the Mughal Shahs had Persian mothers (starting with Humayun, Babur's son). Only Babur himself spoke a Turkic language. His children did not. His son Humayun spent 10 years of his life in Persian exile. There, he married his Persian wife, a relative of the Persian Shahs. The Persian Shahs supported Humayun with a strong army to reconquer India. His son Akbar made Persian the official language of his kingdom. There was absolutely nothing "Turkish" about the Mughals. -213.39.153.170 22:58, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

You are trying to force modern concepts of ethnicity where it does not belong. The Mughals did not think of themsleves as any ethnicity. And the fact that Babur spoke Chagtai is pretty important. And by the way Humayun and Akbar both had Hindu Rajput wives. Nothing is ever as ethnically clean cut and pure as Germans like it to be 129.199.224.169 01:32, 24 February 2006 (UTC)ahassan05

[edit] Mughals were Mutlicultural and Babur was a Turk

Mughals were Turks, this is just basic knowledge, Babur the founder of the "Babur Khan Empire" which is its proper name in the region wrote in the Babur-Name

Babur, the leader of the [Indian]Mogul Empire, says, "My people are Turkish. They speak Turkish." The Chaghatai, the great poets of medieval Central Asia, called their language Turkish.

http://cceia.org/viewMedia.php/prmTemplateID/8/prmID/5163

The BaburName is a Turkish masterpiece, if anyone has read this epic they will realise that the Moghuls were so evidently Turks.

You can read a few pages here online

http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/texts/babur/babur1.html

Image:Http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/texts/babur/images/baburn2.jpg

Andijanis are all Turks; everyone in town or bazar knows Turki. The speech of the people resembles the literary language; hence the writings of Mir 'Ali-sher Nawa'i, though he was bred and grew up in Hin (Herat), are one with their dialect. Good looks are common amongst them. The famous musician, Khwaja Yusuf, was an Andijani. The climate is malarious; in autumn people generally get fever.

This article is just hilarious, in Pakistan and India its common knowledge that they were of a Turk family as we read the BaburNama unlike some here. Not only was he a Turk, he was a proud one. Also we don't have a racist paranoid hang-up with Turks, theyre presence and history added to our culture and history and we mixed with them and are actually proud of this. Epics like "Princess Razia", the Gaznivids and later great leaders.

Its disturbing that these Persians are so jelous and intent to make everything theirs. The leaders of these Empires all had an Islamic concept ie Nationalism wasnt an issue, infact the Turk rulers promoted our languages and culture, without them it may have died out and not developed to the extent it has.

The Great Turk Genius Amir Khusraw and his accomplishments in Music

http://muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?TaxonomyTypeID=13&TaxonomySubTypeID=-1&TaxonomyThirdLevelID=-1&ArticleID=526

That great music we love has a lot of credit due to this Turk, this is why I really love these people, they came not to oppress or assimilate us, no but to adapt and improve what they found.

Could this article please be edited, these bitter Pan-Persian maniacs are trying to cause ethnic tensions and problems among the people. Nobody in the regions of Pakistan accepts Babur Khan Empire to be PERSIAN, if you said that theyre you'd get laughed at its that ridiculous. In-fact the Persians should thank the Turks, imagine if the Turks had been like these Persians today, there wouldn't be a Persian today.

The "Babur Khan Empire" was a multi-ethnic Empire it was neither Persian, nor Turk, nor Pashtun, nor Sikh, nor Hindi it was ALL OF THESE. While the Babur Khan family was initially Turk.

Babur, the new conqueror of Delhi, had been ruler of Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan, for 20 years. Racially, Babur was a Turk with a thin stream of Mongol blood in his veins; therefore, notes Hambly (1968), the term 'Mughal' by which he and his descendants were known in India was really a misnomer. In Persian, the word Mughal, always highly pejorative among the civilized inhabitants of Iran or Mawarannahr, simply means a Mongol. It is clear, however, from Babur's writing that he considered himself a Turk. Although Babur was descended on his mother's side from Chingiz Khan's second son, Chaghatai, it is clear that this Mongol lineage meant less to him than his paternal ancestry which linked him with the great Turkish conqueror, Timur.

www.islamicart.com/library/empires/india/babur.html www.indhistory.com/babur.html www.bengalweb.com/hist/wbenhis1.html

This is such basic common knowledge, Babur referred to himself as a Turk, he had Turk blood in him and spoke and wrote in Turk language.

Later Babur's extensive family mixed with many other Nationalities and so they are a Turk Root family but became a part of this land and the people of this land and so are ours and the Turks, it is a bridge between our people and proves how well we can get along and how our relations today are very good.

The conclusion is, this Empire was not Nationalistic, therefore they didn't have these pychotic paranoid fears that I read in this section. Babur was a Turk, his family later mixed with local rulers in this region. Therefore its a Pakistan-Indian-Afgan-Turk Empire, definately not Persian, the only thing Persian was language which was used, nobody ever referred to themselves as Persian or Persian rulers this is a mumbo-jumbo joke if anybody claims this.

This part of the article is ESPECIALLY DEEPLY FLAWED

To the subject of the Mughals origins, the Mughal people were created through a series of interracial marriages. When the Mongolians of north west asia took the subcontinent and middle east in its vast empire, there was much marriage between the Mongols and central asians in particular the Persians. The Mughals are derived from this unique mesh of different peoples, although they adopted the culture of their ancestral Persians, which is evident in their religious practices, customs, architecture and language; and they still retained many physical attributes from their other ancestral half, which also helped to cement new customs and traditions.

Now common please, this is so unbelievably ridiculous.

1. The Mongols did not enter Central Asia to find a "monoethnic" Persian mass living there. The historic name of that region is "Turkestan", take a wild guess why, if you ever read the BaburNama you would realise Babur Khan refers to the region as such aswell.

2. This paragraph pretends that Persians are somehow this huge majority population in Central Asia/Turkestan. Its plain nonsense, these are not ethnic Persian areas, why are these lies being perpetrated. It is just the same as saying, Shiraz and Isfahan regions are Arab lands and all the people who reside there Arabs. There are Tajiks, Turks, Pashtuns who all lived in this region prior to the Mongol invasion.

3. Prior to Mongol invasion as I previously stated, many non-Persian nations resided in historic Turkestan/Central Asia, this article pretends the Seljuk Turks, KaraKhanids, Gaznivids, Timurids etc didnt exist. As if there was no Turk presence in the region its worrying to think some people live in such a fantasy world.

4. There is also an Arab presence which is totally forgotten, there was flourishing Arab trade and culture which also influenced the region.

5. It was overwhelmingly "Islamic", meaning YET AGAIN, Nationalism was not an issue, people werent roving around trying to eliminate traces of "others" and make everything theirs.

In conclusion, this section MUST be changed, it pretends Turks and their influence doesnt exist which is a total lie. The millitary system, musical influence, cultural influences and ruling influences were all bought in by the Turks. The Islamic influence must be made more important and aware of. AND THE PASHTUN, PUNJAB, HINDI PEOPLE'S INFLUENCE, MIXTURE AND CULTURE MUST BE HIGHLIGHTED, the article pretends we dont exist. As I stated earlier, while many Turks mixed with us and their families arrived, they did not attempt to assimilate us or change us. They of-course had profound influence but also adapted to our styles and culture. Therefore we FUSED and took elements from one another.

The Persian element is of course very immportant, as Persian was a literary language, influenced the culture and music's aswell. My aim is not to downplay the Persians (as if its possible in that article) but to stop the down-playing of others.

Lets not forget that while Persian culture had profound influence, the BaburNama and other Turk works are epic Literature's in the Turk language, there were profound Hindi Epic works and Urdu became the "Lingua Franca" of the region. There is hardly any mention to the works in Urdu and our contributions.

I have edited that above paragraph slightly to make it at least a little bit more historically accurate.

EXCUSE ME, BABUR WAS A TURK, WHY IS THERE NO MENTION, WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE FOR THERE BEING PERSIANS IN THE ARMY, THIS IS A COMPLETE HISTORICAL FABRICATION, WHY IS THERE NO MENTION OF THE BABURNAME AN EPIC LITERATURE, WHERE IS THE MENTION OF THE ACHIEVMENTS OF THE PEOPLE OF THE PUNAJB, HINDI'S, PASHTUN INFLUENCE WHO ON EARTH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS.

Omar Khan- Originally from Lahore Pakistan now in London

[edit] Akbars religious policy

Akbar did not decree that his new "religion" was to be offical state policy. In fact it was a religion for the upper nobility of his empire and was quite elitist in its nature. Furthermore, its not even a serious religion. Its more of a club for Akbars personal satisfication.

[edit] User:Siddiqui vandalism?

Siddiqui (talk • contribs) please don't deleted or blank text and references without giving reasons in the edit summary or talk page. [10]

[edit] Is the Persian spelling correct?

As far as I can understand persian alphabet, the persian spelling of this article reads "Mughal Badshah". Shouldn't it be changed to "Mughaliya Sultanat", which is how this empire was called by Indians in those days?

Sisodia 01:49, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

The Persian name should be something like "Hokumat-e Moghuliân" or "Pâdshâhiye Moghuliân" ... "Mughal Badshah" is Urdu and not Persian. -Tajik 22:00, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

It currently reads "شاهان مغول" (shahaan mughool). This is incorrect, Mughal has no waaw. I am going to change this to what you suggested, Hukumat-e-Mughulian.

First it was Mughal Badshah i.e. Mughal King مغل بادشاہ; then it was Shahan-e-Mughal شاهان مغول i.e. Mughal Kings; then it was changed to Hakumat-e-Mughal حکومت مغلیاں i.e. Mughal Government. I have changed it to Daulat-e-Mughal دولتِ مغل which means Mughal Empire.

Siddiqui 06:13, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

you cannot call mughal as saltanate

[edit] "Great" emperors

This article contains many references to a certain set of emperors being "great" and the set that followed them as being "lesser", but it doesn't explain this distinction beyond the obvious indication that apparently being "great" means you get more attention here at wikipedia. What is the historical precedence that has led to these labels? Have there been any revisionist criticisms of labelling certain emperors "great" and others as "lesser"? Is this merely an acknowledged terminology that is understood to be without value judgement, maintained for historical reasons? I'm not an expert on Mughal history (I've just been copyeditting this article), so I'm not equipped to answer these questions, but I think the article would be greatly helped if they could be answered. siafu 23:30, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

After Aurangzeb's death in 1707, Mughal influence declined rapidly, and none of the emperors ruled for a long duration either. Most provinces of the empire started acting on their own will, and regional powers like the Marathas became stronger. None of the emperors in the 18th and 19th centuries were influential enough to be in the league of the emperors classified as the "Great Mughal Emperors" in the article. I think it's a pretty standard thing. deeptrivia (talk) 02:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

There aren't any print sources/references listed on the article. Do you know of any good books or articles on the Mughal Empire I could go to for research? siafu 02:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, grab any book on Medieval Indian history. Don't know any particular ones off hand. All I've read are textbooks in middle school. deeptrivia (talk) 02:58, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding the origin of the Mughals

Taken from the Encyclopaedia Iranica:

"... Babor, Zaher ud-Din Muhammad, ... Timurid prince ... His origin, milieu, training, and culture were steeped in Persian culture and so Babor was largely responsible for the fostering of this culture by his descendants, the Mughals of India, and for the expansion of Persian cultural infleunce in the Indian subcontinent, with brilliant literary, artistic, and historiographical results ... During his stay in Herat, Babor occupied Nava'is former residence, prayed at Nava'i's tomb, and recorded his admiration for the poet's vast corpus of Torki verses, though he found most of the Persian verses to be "poor and flat". Nava'is pioneering literary work in Torki, much of it based, of course, on Persian models, must have reinforced Babor's own efforts to write in that medium ... with the long connection between the Mughals and Safavids begun by Babor himself, the Persian language became not only the language of record but also the literary vehicle for his successors. It was his grandson Akbar who had the Babor-name translated into Persian in order that his nobles and officers could have access to this dramatic account of the dynasty's founder ..." [11]

The article further attests that when Babur attacked India, most of his army consisted of Non-Turks, probably Afghans and Persians (not including the Kizilbash aid he had received from the Safavids). So, not only the army of the Moghuls was largly Non-Turkic, but the dynasty itself - starting with Babur - was Persianized to a large degree.

Now, the following text is taken directly from Babur's autobiography, the famous "Baburnama":

"... Babur begins by describing the geography of Fergana and some background history. He then recounts his part in the internecine conflicts between the Timurids (descendants of Temür/Tamerlane) over Khurasan, Transoxiana, and Fergana and their loss to the Uzbeks under Shaybani. Initially a puppet of others, used for Timurid legitimacy, Babur gradually became a real leader. His fluctuating fortunes saw him take and lose Samarkand twice; eventually he was forced into a kind of "guerilla" existence in the mountains. In 1504 he left Transoxiana with a few hundred companions, acquired the discontented followers of a regional leader in Badakhshan, and took Kabul. From there he began carving out a domain for himself, in a process combining pillage and state-building. ..." [12]

So, according to Babur himself, he left Central Asia with a "few companions" and the aquired support from a regional leader in Persian-dominated Badakhshan. Even assuming that all of his compainions in Central Asia were ethnic Turks (which is deffinitly not true), still the majority of his soldiers would have been Non-Turks, because Badakhshan was a Non-Turkic region back then - as it is still today. So, with Persian-Badakhshani support, Babur conquered Kabul and then recruited other Persian (Tajik) and Afghan soldiers into his army. The number of Turkic warriors was relatively small - that why the Mughals were a totally Persianized dynasty from the very beginning.

All claims of Babur's "Turkic origin" are wrong.

Tajik 03:46, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, that sweeping and aggressive comment simply doesn't follow from what you've posted above. That simply shows that his army was largely made up of non-Turks, and that his successors spoke Persian (after a ten-year interregnum which Humayun spent in Iran). It tells us nothing about Babur himself - the Babur-nama does. Babur wrote his memoirs himself, he wrote them in Chagatai, he describes himself as a Turk, for heavens' sake! that is enormously significant and cannot be brushed aside. He came from Fergana, a region populated by people speaking a Qarluq Turkish dialect. Nobody is trying to say that Mongol Heritage and Persian culture were not of enormous importance, but to try to write the Turks out of the history of Turkestan, and hence of Babur's family and culture, is ridiculous. Sikandarji 11:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Irishpunktom is ubiquitous in revert wars, but is rarely found on discussion pages. Until this changes, his edits should be viewed in the appropriate light.

Timothy Usher 09:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Tajik - Maybe if you were specific about which points you disagree with we could discuss them, but you are removing some obvioulsly correct information. Timothy, do you actually have anything to contribute to our dialouge or are you here to moan about me? --Irishpunktom\^talk 13:34, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

This article is about the entire Mughal dynasty, not just about Babur (whose ethnic heritage really did not matter). Fact is: the Mughals as a dynasty were NOT Turks, they were NOT Turkish-speaking, and they did NOT claim to be Turks. Their army was NOT predominantly Turkish, they Mughal Shahs (starting with Humayun) were totally Persianized, Babur's grandson Akbar did not even know Chaghatai. Therefore, it is totally wrong to say that "the word 'Mughal' is a misnomer, because the dynasty was Turkish". Tajik 15:05, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree with that (got a bit carried away before). No-one can dispute that the ethos, culture, language of the Mughal dynasty was overwhelmingly Persianate. Perhaps the phrase should be "The word 'Mughal' is a misnomer, because the dynasty was Timurid and was referred to as Gurkani by its members", or something along those lines (see the stuff from Thackston on the Talk:Babur page. My only real gripe all along is that the Indo-Persian character of the Mughal dynasty after Humayun has tended to overshadow the Central Asian character of its founder, revealed to us through that extraordinary memoir, the Babur-nama. In an article devoted to the entire dynasty that objection doesn't really apply. Sikandarji 15:48, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religion

Naturally, we have no idea who 132.170.24.22 is (we rarely do with the kind of people who add this sort of stuff) but his motives are, on the contrary, blindingly obvious: let's stir up communal hatred between Indian Muslims and Hindus by presenting the Mughals as alien barbarians who killed people on the basis of their religion. The fact is that attempts to project today's religious attitudes into the past, whether these be those of Islamic suicide bombers or saffron-clad Hindutva hate-peddlers, are completely anachronistic. Religion in India possessed much more syncretic forms than it does today, and amongst the population (as opposed to the elites and the clergy) the religious divide was extremely blurred. The Mughals killed a lot of people in their campaigns, as did many rulers of the period - but, with the possible exception of Aurangzeb, they were not fighting an ideological war to spread Islam (and even Aurangzeb spent more time suppressing the Islamic Sultanates of the Deccan than fighting 'Hindu' rulers). They had many non-Muslim allies and courtiers, such as Bir Singh Deo of Bundelkhand and the culture they produced was a hybrid of Indian, Iranian and Timurid influences. Shah Jahan was indeed a good deal more Orthodox than his grandfather (See John F. Richards The Mughal Empire New Cambridge History of India I.5 (Cambridge) 1993 pp121-3) but he did not go around killing non-Muslims because they were non-Muslims, as this user has suggested. The story of the incestuous relationship with his daughter is a rumour, and should not be presented as accepted historical fact, and neither that nor the reference to his concubines belongs in the 'Religion' section. The so-called 'reference' provided by this user ("The Sword of the Prophet" by Yuri Trifkovic) is not to be found in either the Bodleian or the British Library's catalogue, so we can safely assume that it is not a reputable work (looking at the surname of the author, I strongly suspect that if it exists at all it will turn out to be far-right Serbian propaganda). I have removed Non-NPOV sections, unreferenced assertions and provocative attempts to stimulate hate: if references are not provided for the remainder I will re-write that section using reliable sources. Sikandarji 09:52, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

This guy needs to be watched, and his unencyclopedic, biased and hateful rhetoric needs to be erased as soon as possible. Ed Sanville 20:18, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong Map??

Which mughal ruler controlled all this territory? I know for fact that Maharashtra was never ruled by Mughals. Also note that not all muslim rulers were mughals. This map is absurd. I am removing it until somebody can find a correct one or ofcourse prove me wrong by provinding a source. Raswa 00:27, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Unless your are from India and are a couple hundred years old, you don't know for a fact.

-G

[edit] Quotes from Guru Nanak

While interesting, I dont think they have any place in themain article. I am moving themhere; if anyone is interested, they should put them in a separate article and link to them. Mughal Empire is already well over recommended size.

[edit] Early Sikh Gurus' perception of the Mughal Empire

The Sikh texts give a unique picture, at odds with most historical narratives. Babur's reign was witnessed by the first Sikh Guru Nanak Dev Ji. The Raag Asa Guru records Nanak's observations and thoughts in his poems. It says:

"Having attacked Khuraasaan, Babar terrified Hindustan. The Creator Himself does not take the blame, but has sent the Mugal as the messenger of death. There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn't You feel compassion, Lord?" pg (360)

On the condition of Hindu women in Babur's rule:

"Those heads adorned with braided hair, with their parts painted with vermilion - those heads were shaved with scissors, and their throats were choked with dust. They lived in palatial mansions, but now, they cannot even sit near the palaces.... ropes were put around their necks, and their strings of pearls were broken. Their wealth and youthful beauty, which gave them so much pleasure, have now become their enemies. The order was given to the soldiers, who dishonored them, and carried them away. If it is pleasing to God's Will, He bestows greatness; if is pleases His Will, He bestows punishment" pg(417-18)

On the nature of Mughal rule under Babur:

"First, the tree puts down its roots, and then it spreads out its shade above. The kings are tigers, and their officials are dogs; they go out and awaken the sleeping people to harass them. The public servants inflict wounds with their nails. The dogs lick up the blood that is spilled." Source: Rag Malar, (pg.1288)

However, the Sikh Guru then met with the Mughal king babur and says:

“Listen O King, go and survey the scene of destruction that has been caused by your army. Take a warning from those who have defeated others. He who is victorious today may suffer defeat tomorrow. Where are those kings who ruled here yesterday ? Where are those games, those stables, those horses ? Where are those bugles, those clarions ? Where are those who buckled on their swords and were mighty in battle ? Where are those scarlet uniforms ? Where are those mirrors that reflected fair faces ? Where are those houses, those mansions, those palaces ? We see them no longer here. O Lord, this world is Thine. In one moment, Thou create, in another moment, Thou destroy Thy Creation.”

Thus, according to the Sikh texts, the reasons for the Mughal success is actually because of the blessings of the Sikh Gurus.

Hornplease 07:00, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Offical Name

Any information about the official name of the Mughal Empire or what did Mughals call theirselves, regards --Dukak 09:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

This is what Thackston has to say:

"History has conspired to rob Babur not only of his fame as a Central Asian sovereign over the kingdom of Kabul for much longer than he was in the subcontinent, but also of his primary identity as a Timurid by labelling him and his successors as 'Mughals' - that is, Moghuls, or Mongols - an appellation that would not have pleased him in the least. In India the dynasty always called itself Gurkani, after Temür's title Gurkân, the Persianised form of the Mongolian kürügän, 'son-in-law', a title he assumed after his marriage to a Genghisid princess. Nonetheless, Europeans, recognising that there was some connection between Babur's house and the Mongols but ignorant of the precise relationship, dubbed the dynasty with some variant of the misnomer Moghul (Mogol, Mogul, Maghol etc.) and made the name synonymous with greatness." Wheeler M. Thackston The Babur-nama (New York) 2002 pxivi

Thank you, this is what I was looking for --Dukak 13:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The current map is ludicrous. Some one put up something that isn't based on fantasy.

[edit] "A style of architecture"

The artcile mentions various Moghul contributions but it implies India had no architecture prior to the invasion which sounds like India was a mudhole with brainless barbarians incapable of doing anything note worthy if anything didn't the Moghuls replace the existing architecture with their own rather than giving them one.

[edit] Unsourced Quotations

There are at least three quotations in the intro that are not cited at all. Anybody know what they're from? Woodstein52 09:00, 4 Sept 2006 (UTC)

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