Talk:Muay Thai

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I don't think so, because, it's like describing how to bat in both the softball and baseball articles. I just noticed though that they both do. I'm not gonna put any time in writing a section about punching, but if you want to, be bold!--NoNo 16:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Would anyone object if I lowercased the m in muay Thai? I don't see any reason for it. Markalexander100 03:02, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have altered the definition of ajarn because it is incorrect. Ajarn is the term used for upper level teachers (post secondary). I suppose it can also be used as Master but it is not specific to Muay Thai

Thanks

Done. Markalexander100 06:25, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I object. Muay Thai should be capitalized for the same reasons that Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and Greco-Roman Wrestling are capitalized. Patiwat 22:08, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that the description of Muay Thai as an especially versatile, brutal straightforward martial art is a bit subjective. In what way is Muay Thai more brutal than other martial arts? Why not just remove this word that seems to have more to do with assumptions than fact?

I agree, straightforward is proven I guess but should be stated in that the training usually comprehend only a small number of techniques, but it's not more versatile than any other martial art or in any way more brutal. It's all in the eye of the beholder I guess.--84.217.121.68 08:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Conditioning?

The conditioning regimen in Muay Thai is legendary for its intensity and rigour. Its focus is on hardening the eight anatomical weapons in the Muay Thai arsenal to an incredible degree, so much so that getting hit with a shin kick from a Muay Thai fighter is often likened to being hit by a baseball bat.


A commonly yet mistakenly held belief is that Muay Thai training includes special exercises for hardening shins and other body parts. In reality, Muay Thai training does not include any special hardening exercises in addition to heavy bag training.

^ so assuming the second paragraph in the Conditioning section is true, I am deleting the first one because it is contradicted by the second

There is the condition regime myth of kicking trees, which I have heard many times. The most reliable reason for this was that it was actually done by kicking banana trees, which are actually not that hard. Please Please don't anyone go kicking an Oak, it will hurt. Kicking and blocking kicks are about all the conditioning that is done. Again, the idea that Thai Boxers kick walls as a pre-fight warm up is another invention of the film Kickboxer. Damn that Van Dam.

I've seen pictures of old-style muay thais kicking banan trees. Kicking on anything else than a heavy bag, um..banan tree or focus mits will hurt your bones. And you.--84.217.124.111 20:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Muay Thai myths?

Would it be a good idea to include section to dispell some myths about Muay Thai training? One constantly bumbs into quite wild ideas, i.e. the hardening of shins or other body parts.

Unfortunately, this is not quite true. I have slammed my shins onto the training pads, sandbags and (with some care) smooth-barked trees. Whilst my trainer may not be up to the world-class champion training grade, he is otherwise compentent and a decent fellow. I am not a professional grade boxer, just a enthusiastic amateur. There are some Thai boxers who do harden their shins; it just that it's not emphasised by the majority of the training camps. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.202.183.66 (talk • contribs) date.

While I completely agree that there are Thai boxers who intentionally harden their shins, this is not common practice nor is it included in what you might call traditional muay thai -training. The obvious reason for the lack of special shin hardening exercises is that there is no need for them: normal training with pads and heavy bags will do the trick.

One "old-school" method/exercise did have to do with kicking a tree, as told by Ajarn Mike Miles (3 time professional world champion (62W/6L/2D) and a long time student of Ajarn Panya Kraitus, the author of one of the books mentioned in the same article) about his time training in Thailand was that he was instructed to practice kicking a small tree that had been felled, sharpened at its base much like a pencil and propped upright. The exercise was to keep the tree from falling down by kicking it on the side that is starting to fall. While some tolerance for discomfort and fatigue is obviously nessesary the real point of the exercize is not simply to kick something big and hard but to have to be thinking about where to kick it while doing so and not getting much rest. Typically the instructor would have the student keep the tree upright for the period of one full round. If the tree fell, the student would have to start over. While this is not shin hardening per se, it may be where some of the legend comes from.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.202.183.66 (talk • contribs) date.

When you harden your shin, you actually kill some of the nerves in your skin. The best way to do this is hitting training pads and sandbags repeatedly. If you hit, or use, harder things like glass bottles other solid stuff you will hurt your bone and in the long run make your bone more easier to break. Of course you will kill the nerves faster with harder things but in the long run, it's just not worth it.--NoNo 22:36, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Some time ago a short and rather graphic clip of a kickboxer suffering a severe fracture of the lower leg (and attempting to stand on it with a rather gruesome result) made the rounds on the net. At that time the comment made by Mr. Miles in his classes was that the injury was possibly due partially to a lack of time spent on a hard heavybag for conditioning. The notion of shin conditioning is not so much to do with hardening or deadening of the tissues in the shins themselves but rather the strengthening of the bone. Bone is living tissue with active vascular, immuneosuppressant and structural activity. This is how bones heal. Like muscle, but unlike nerve, bone is an adaptive tissue. In strength training the muscle is being damaged on a cellular and intercellular level by overstressing the tissues. The actual increase in strength comes not from the work on the bench itself but from the healing that the muscles undergo over the following day or two (the burn). Bone is similar. Upon repeatedly striking a hard surface such as a densely packed heavybag, the bone gets injured slightly. These small injuries are repaired and reinforced by the body in anticipation of future trauma. Sokhim Or (Ranked 7th Welterweight in the world at one point) is known for the many many hours kicking one particular heavlybag purportedly filled with loose cement powder; his performance in the ring attests to this (more than one bought won by knockout in less than 15 seconds into the first round). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.202.183.66 (talk • contribs) date.

But, your nerves gotta die off too, cause how else would it be possible for a thaiboxer to kick against someones shin and feel considerably less pain than a regular person doing the same kick?--84.217.121.191 21:07, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

If your nerves did die out, you wouldn't even be able to feel yourself rubbing on your shin. What is actually happening is you are conditioning your mind and body to get used to the pain. Plus all that other physiological stuff talk about int he above. Shardakar 05:45, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, shouldn't it be possible to at least kill off some nerves? I agree with the "bone gets harder" thing, there's been tests on all that, but only if you use something that's softer than your shin, e.g. a heavy bag or thai pad. That's about getting the bone harder, the killing of nerves are about reducing the pain. I don't believe that you raise your pain bar substantially(you know what I mean with pain bar) when you kick at a heavy bag or something similar. It doesn't hurt to hit a heavy bag! I do believe, however, that the impact kills off some nerves. I got no really good sources(medical), but if you search the web you can get some, at least, interesting results.

Check [1] for This will thicken the bone slightly, increase bone density and kill off a few of the nerves that transmit the pain! or a even better source 101 on Shin Conditioning. He(on ironlife.com) adds too that "hardening of the shins" can be psychological,but in another way, that the adrenaline in a fight keeps you somewhat less aware of the pain. Well, anyone got better sources?--NoNo 00:54, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe the glue and glass covered gloves is actually a myth, brought to popular attention by the film Kickboxer. If anything it would have been broken sea shells and not glass. Even that may be untrue and I have heard Thai Boxing masters say it was actually the hemp rope wraped around their fists that was tied to form sea shell shaped balls on the knuckles, these were very abrasive and able to cut easily. Watch Ong Bak and you will see these. Ong Bak is actually a very accurate film portraying traditional style 'master techniques' very well (appart from the flaming knees!), showing them beating the modern Thai Boxing sport.

Then again, you might not know who would win a fight between an old style muay thai fighter against a modern one. I believe, that muay thai have been improved, especially with it's western boxing style. As far as what I've heard, it's generally agreed upon that they used hemp ropes with, at special occasions, glass or sea shells crushed and glued or in some other way stuck to "gloves". These "special occasions" were when they performed in front of the king. I've also heard tales of kings that forced their servants to sit against each other on the ground and beat each other until the other guy died. Unable to move, these fights ended quickly and by that tale/myth, you can almost comprehend how cruel a medieval king might have been. --84.217.127.182 23:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
http://www.discoverychannelasia.com/martial_arts/south_asia/muay_thai/index.shtml at least discovery channel doesn't believe the tar and glass thing was made up by Bloodsport.--NoNo 20:07, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

http://www.horizonmuaythai.com/muaykaadchuek.html Some cool photos of muay kaad chuek.--84.217.117.163 01:05, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Muay thai vs the kung-fu masters

So there's a famous legend X kung-fu masters (insert martial art of choice) being invited to fight against Thailand's muay thai champions sometime in the 1970s, and all being defeated/knocked out within Y minutes. Is there some historical backing for this?

There's a lot of information about this at Journal of Chinese Martial Science. While some of the articles are pro-Muay Thai, such as the one called A History of Kung Fu VS Muay Thai, others give equal respect to san shou, like The Night Muay Thai lost its Supremacy. The author also talks some about Bajiquan, because he trains in it himself. Very interesting read, and he presents a very in-depth history and analysis of san shou vs Muay Thai. / Wintran 17:44, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Considering that Muay Thai(Kickboxing) together with BJJ has proved to be by far the most effective combination in UFC and Pride. I think it's proved that Muay Thai is one of the most effective martial arts in the world, if not the most effective one. --84.217.121.14 00:52, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Of course those kung-fu masters who fought Muay Thai fighers in the 30's were not even masters. In the late 20's and early 30's there were couple national free fight torunaments held in Nanjing, Hangzhou and Shanghai. Each province held the preliminary rounds of fights, and then send the best 10 or so to compete in the final round. These torunaments were dominated by Northern Chinese fighters, as there was no weight class and the fight was free, i.e. grapping was allowed. The top 6 or so fighters in these tournaments were native of Hebei. This is not surprising as Hebei provided over 50% of all top-3 Imperial Martial Art Examination in the Qing Dynasty. The styles of these Hebei fighters were Xiang Yi, Zhuo Jiao, Tong Bi, etc, and they were trained in Shui Jian (Chinese wrestling). - Karolus 2006/5/10

Not kung fu, but during the 70s, plenty of Japanese came to Thailand and fought with Thais in Muay Thai. This was Thai Muay Thai vs. Japanese Muay Thai. Most of the japanese were roundly defeated (nothing wrong with that - no Thai has ever won the Judo or Karate world championship either). The japanese licked their wounds, went back and integrated muay thai into the quickly evolving hybrid shoot-righting/vale-tudo/MMA styles being developed in the 80s and 90s, and these days, nearly all of the top fighters in Pride and UFC have some training in Muay Thai. It is silly to argue over what martial art is "best", when time and time again it has been shown that a good "hybrid" fighter can often defeat a good "pure" fighter. Patiwat 11:04, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

There were some matches in early 1970's between Kung Fu (Mi ZHong, Wing Tsun and Choi Lay Fat) martial artists from Hong Kong who fought Muay Thai fighters in Bangkok and lost. The skills of these Kung Fu fighters were not bad, but they lost on the technicalities of the regulations: the fight rules were Muay Thai rules allowing knee and elbow strikes, whereas in the Kung Fu competition in Hong Kong in the 1970's at that time the British government banned knee and elbow strike and also forced fighters to wear helmets. In the early 1980s they finally decided not to grant any permits for fighting competions.
There is no such thing as the best martial art style. Some styles, however, are better than the others in the sense that the trainings are more complete and the teachers are better equipped and more experienced. Inpired by the linguistic models developed by Professor Hashimoto in explaining the languages of North East Asia and South East Asia, I have this model of the East Asian martial art styes:
1) In the Northern part of East Asia (Mongolia, Manchuria, Hebei, Shanxi, Korea and Japan), emphasis is on wrestling, throwing, grabbing and arm twisting on legs as well as on the ground. I think this is because in winter the land is frozen and slippery, people wear thick cloths and the most efficient way is to wrestle your opponents on the ground and pin him down.
2) In Northern and Central China where the climate is warmer, the emphasis is on using the legs as weapons. Besides wrestling and arm twisting techniques, Hebei also has the most kicking intensive styles and ground fights techniques using arms lock and leg kicks were commonly practiced. The same can be said to Shangdong styles, Korean styles and modern Japanese styles.
3) In Southern China the emphasis is on using the forearms and hands to fight, so the styles developed complex uses of fist, forearms (Jiao Shou), palms, etc, as well as stances. This is due to the fact that people travel by boats and ships most of them time, and fights happened on boat a lot more than on land.
4) In continental South East Asia emphasis is on legs again. Perhaps the plain is bigger than the small plains around river delta in Southern China so people travel by land more.
As for on stage or in ring fight competition, I think the best techniques used will depend on the distance between you and the opponent. The winning combination is target position, speed and power of your strike, the defence power of your body including the ability of slightly move (1 inch or less) your body away from your opponent's strike, and the sustaining power of your body in case your opponent's strikes succeeded.
Karolus 23/5/2006

I agree with you, but Muay Thai is used in the training of stand-up game of alot of UFC and Pride fighters so I think you can say for sure that a NHB game the thaiboxing(I refuse to say thai kickboxing) works best. But, of-course, a thaiboxer will have not a chance agains't a BJJ or any other grappler. Maybe that should be stated in the article? The ol' grappler vs. standing are a classic.--84.217.121.68 08:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What does tomoi have to do with Muay Thai history?

A short paragraph describing tomoi is shown in the History section. The paragraph does not have anything to do with history, i.e., how tomoi derived or was influenced by Muay Thai. I believe it should be deleted or edited from the History section.

[edit] Boxer's day

is boxer's day on march the 16th or 17th?! i see different numbers on the internet.


it's on 17 .

National Muay Thai Day

[edit] Missed Info and Misunderstandings

While I agree with most of this article, I don’t think I completely agree about description of the round kick, as kicking with the leg locked. To some extent the standing leg is straight and ‘locked’ at time of contact (depending on the height of the kick), but I have never kicked nor seen anyone else kick with a locked kicking leg! In fact it is most distinctively bent at point of contact. The power comes from the spring from the floor and the rotation of the body, this energy is rapidly translated to the release of the leg towards the target, quite often in a downwards cut. It is definitely not swing of a straight leg as the article describes. Also I would not advise anyone to kick with the foot, it would most probably lead to injury. The kick should be delivered by no further down the leg than the instep. Catching the leg is not just restricted to a round kick, and is often done also for defence of a front kick. Upon catching a leg the techniques available to the attacker extend much further then simple attacking the standing leg! Finally there is no mention of the difference in rules found in Thai boxing contests outside of Thailand, including most mixed martial arts. Most contests outside Thailand do not allow the use of elbows and knees to the head, considering them too dangerous. This dramatically changes the style of fighting. Some mixed martial arts allow knees, which is probably why there seams to be an emphasis of knee techniques in the article, there is just as many and just and dramatic elbow strikes, its just that these are not likely be seen in the likes of K1.

Well, not locked in the sense of an immobile or straight leg (maybe more like you say, "locked at time of contact"), but you don't snap as a karate or TKD practioneer do. And ur right about the techniques that can be used after a leg catch. We practice knees to the head, ribs, sweeps and if flexible enough, a kick to the head. I've seen Buakaw Por Pramuk do a kick to the head when he catched a kick during a match.. He rock. --84.217.124.111 20:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
A good point is made about the difference in rules between "Thai" Muay Thai and "Foreign" Muay Thai. There is also a rules differences between amateur and professional Muay Thai. Why don't you note down the differences and include them as a seperate section? Patiwat 05:16, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kickboxing and Muay Thai

I think it is wrong say people consider kickboxing as a watered down version of Thai Boxing, it is just a very very different style. Let alone the fact there is no knees, elbows, clinch work or leg kicks in kickboxing, the remaining kicking styles have very little very little in common. A Thai Boxer would be very unlikely to try a spinning backfist, a hook kick, back kick or axe kick. Kickboxing was formed in America in the 70's from a need to produce a ring sport had the familiarity of western boxing but included all the new and exciting 'kung fu' and karate kicks. The evolution of kickboxing has seen it develop to having more in common with Karate and Tae Kwon Do than any other style.

Sure, you got techniques, but in a fight between a kickboxer and a thaiboxer with knees and elbows allowed I would bet all my money on the thaiboxer. We prepare for kicks and fists(and well, we got a spinning backfist(although not frequently used) plus a "back elbow") plus we could dominate you from the clinch. And there fore people say that kickboxing is a watered down form of Muay Thai. Muay thai is a watered down version of Burmese boxing which got headbutts too. Heck, muay thai is a watered down version of muay thai, cause in 1930's u were allowed to kick to the groin.--84.217.124.111 20:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Just because you're of the opinion that kickboxing is less effective than Muay Thai dominates doesn't make kickboxing a "watered down" version of Muay Thai. "Watered down" doesn't mean less effective - it means derivative and less effective. The grandfather editor has noted that kickboxing is not at all derivative of Muay Thai, even though on paper, they might appear familiar. Patiwat 05:14, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
AFAIK Oriental and American Kickboxing have different origins. American has it's roots in boxing, and it's little more than boxing with kicks. Oriental kickboxing was a merging of Muay Thai and Karate Kyokushinkai that took place in Japan. Low-kicks are allowed, shin strikes, and even knee strikes. It is in fact very much like Muay Thai.

[edit] Image

We should have an image that shows a live Muay Thai match in progress, maybe with someone throwing a knee, kick or elbow. Shawnc 04:02, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll get that, I'm also gonna get a picture on some thai mitts.--NoNo 00:19, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What do you guys think about this text?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundhouse_kick#Muay_Thai_Method Maybe it should be added to the article? Not me who wrote it though. --84.217.115.202 00:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Need help with the Notable Figures...

I fixed John Wayne Parr's name but I'm not sure what should be done with it. Oh, I alphabetized it also. You think that people should be listed on wikipedia to qualify to be listed on notable figures?--NoNo 00:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vo tu do

I am pretty sure thats a viet martial arts that is independent from muay thai and invented by the viets. I dont it has anything to do with muay thai.Ifire 01:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright?

Copyright examination has been requested for the material described below. If you are confident that the material is free of copyright concerns based on Fair Use or other considerations, feel free to add it directly to the article. If you do so, or alternatively if you believe it cannot legally be added, please post your analysis below.

Would it be possible to use this [2] photo or drawing (hard to say) in the article? It's found on several web sites on google[3]. Perhaps is this a better picture [4]? I'm not sure however if it's Nai Khanomtom on the picture. The google search say it is, but the guy fought in 1774[5], so he can't be on a photo right? If the thai didn't invented the camera first..hmm. It could be a drawing but the detail on the ropes says otherwise in my humble opinion. Anyway, please say what you think and if you think that this photo/drawing could fall under fair-use because of the author is probably dead for at least 100 years. I'm not sure who's the author though, but could the photo/drawing fall under

Historical photographs

  1. it is a historically significant photo of a famous individual;
  2. it is of much lower resolution than the original (copies made from it will be of very inferior quality)
  3. the photo is only being used for informational purposes.
  4. Its inclusion in the article adds significantly to the article because it shows the subject of this article and how the event depicted was very historically significant to the general public.

Thanks for the help!--NoNo 22:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I STRONGLY suspect that {{PD-old}} would apply based on common logic (If he was alive in 1774, then the artist would have to have lived for probably well over 100 years for even the Life + 100 years countries to still perpetuate a copyright), however that isn't always a good legal move and I suspect many people around here would challenge anything but an outright explicit date of death of the author. Also, remember that all images, PD or not, have to have a source. 68.39.174.238 04:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lethwei

Lethwei is in the same martial arts system as Muay Thai, but is a diffrent style is it now. I believe it should be in the intro.Figer 03:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, true, 202.133.104.38 did a edit which fixed it being inserting "similar style called Lethwei" in the intro. --NoNo 17:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

The History section needs work. Whoever came up with any evidence that krabi-krabong predates Muay Thai or at least that Muay Thai was derived from krabi-krabong? And what source besides Jeane-Claude Van Damme shows that Thai boxers put broken glass in their gloves?Morinae 09:57, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Just for the sake of asking, could someone tell me what was wrong with my last edit and why it had to be reverted?

I feel like I'm talking to myself here but I don't see anything wrong with the changes I made. In its defense let me explain a few things. Krabi-krabong in it's current form could, at most, have originated in the 1600s. We don't know if at that time it would have been "a style based on kicks with wrestling-like throws". Muay Boran is older than that. Besides that, if you look up any source besides the internet, you will see that most people think Muay Thai was influenced by Chinese and Indian martial arts. We should also mention how Muay Thai was developed from Muay Boran. This is an important aspect of it's history and cannot be ignored. I'll try again later to fix it but I'd really like to know what I'm doing wrong here.Morinae 09:57, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

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