Talk:Motown Records

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I removed

was the first style of African-American music to have major commercial success in the white mass market

Because it isn't true. Some of the first recording stars in the US were classic (black) female blues singer, and styles of African-American music to have major commercial success before Motown include swing, ragtime, jazz and rock and roll. ________________________________________________________________________________

I don't think that Billie Holliday (assuming that's who you referring to by 'classic (black) female blues singer') the jazz movement that emerged from Harlem, and a handful of other working, black recording artists can be construed as 'a major commercial success', especially since a great deal of the artists to whom you seem to be alluding received very little of the recognition in their own time that they have been lavished with after the fact of their deaths. Deserved attention, but, sadly, mostly post-mortem.

I assert that Motown was, indeed, black written, produced and performed music's first major commercial breakthrough in America for the following reasons:

  • 1): The emergent popularity of Top 40 Radio, (which had previously been almost exclusively the domain of white artists) and the marketing channels it afforded black artists in that era.
  • 2): The baby boomer market's legendary disposable income and the popularity of 45 R.P.M. singles, jukboxes and other income streams and promotional opportunities -that were previously only marginal- coming to the fore.
  • 3): The packaging of Motown artists in a manner that parents of Caucasian boomers found to be "acceptable"
  • 4): Swing and rock and roll (especially in the 1950's in America) had it's greatest commercial successes when played by white artists. Witness Benny Goodman, the Dorsey Brothers, Artie Shaw, Pat Boone, Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis, etc... Jazz and ragtime, while having a larger number of successful black artists working in those styles, have never gotten close to the popularity of Motown whatsoever as a commercial entity, and therefore have had a somewhat lesser impact on white popular culture, overall.

If you couple that with the fact that Motown, as a genre was SOLELY the domain of black artists and producers, I think my statement is quite true.

Dollar for dollar, this was black music's come-up in white America, IMHO.

In as much as it's not a terribly critical piece of data about that genre of music, I have decided to leave your deletion as-is, despite the fact that I flatly disagree with you.

Thank you. Bunnerabb

I think the statement wasn't very precise, then -- first style of African-American music doesn't denote anything to do with the race of the performers. Bill Haley, for example, played an African-American style of music to major commercial acclaim. There should be a discussion in the article of the points you bring up, but it's more complicated than Motown being the first style to gain commercial success. How about encyclopedifying your above comments and placing them in the article? Ultimately, it is not the job of Wikipedia to tell the reader that Motown was or was not the first major mainstream black music, but to present the reasons why some people feel it was so, and the reasons why others feel it was not.
Whether or not it is true depends a lot on how you want to define some terms. The first recording stars in the country were people like Mamie Smith (classic female blues needs an article, as Billy Holiday was not part of it -- [allmusic.com] has a reasonable article on it, if you want to know more). Certainly, by 1960s standards, Mamie Smith was a cult act at best but it all depends on how you define major and mainstream and success... Motown was by far the most mainstream genre of music played by African Americans as of the period in time, but for their own period, there were black ragtime and jazz performers who made as much money performing as most any musician in the country. The difference is that pop music (i.e. Top 40 radio, as you mention above) was only a nascent phenomenon until the 50s and didn't really hit its stride until the 60s -- we shouldn't be defining 1920s success by 1960s standards. Tuf-Kat 18:25, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)

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Good points, and well taken.

However, my statement was: 'The first style of African-American music to have major commercial success in the white mass market', and that's true. While the whole recording industry was, at best, nascent during the eras preceeding the '50s and early '60s, there was an established paradigm with stars and also rans. Much like now. Granted.

The majority of records that sold in that era -that were recorded by black artists- were purchased by African-American buyers, though. I did say "Major commercial success in the white mass market." For the most part, black music as a popular form and a marketable commodity only came to the attention of white listeners in America after being recorded by white artists and engineers. There were pioneers as standards changed such as Nat King Cole, but a lot of this was very "safe" music and palatable to white audiences in both form and conetent. It was basically easy listening. Records by black artists with any sort of ebulliance or a strong backbeat were considered "race music" and were still somewhat of a novelty in white American households until Motown combined elegance and energy and created "The Sound of Young America®".

I'm quite aware of POV aspects of articles and I certainly do not want to get into that. I simply believe, none the less, the above-mentioned traits of this particular genre of popular music were a very important aspect of it's whole oeuvre.

Your points are well taken, however, and I appreciate your useful input.

(The drummer with who I am working in the recording of a CD release was signed to the Motown label for six years. Perhaps he can shed some light on the yin and yang of the genre and the label, if I ask him nicely.)  : )

Thank you again. Bunnerabb

Well, feel free to expand or change it, but I've gone ahead and added the following to the first paragraph: Tuf-Kat
While there were popular African American musicians prior to the 1960s, including Mamie Smith, Ella Fitzgerald and Chuck Berry, Motown was the most consistently chart-topping genre until perhaps hip hop. In contrast to previous genres of black popular music, Motown soul used African American performers instead of grooming white musicians for crossover fame. It was also the first genre of African American popular music to move beyond simple lyricisms into the realm of socio-political topics, allowing for a wide range of African American viewpoints to be expressed in song.
On second reading, the last sentence ignores Motown Records' unwillingness to expand the possibilities of soul music. I would fix it now, but I've got to go to bed. Tuf-Kat 02:09, Jan 20, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Motown records or Motown, IL?

Can someone provide more info about Motown Records ? Like is it a recording company ? Is Motown name of a place as well ? Jay 21:07, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"Motown" is a nickname for Detroit, Michigan, derived from "motor town." --b. Touch 22:40, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Motown records or Motown sound?

I'm really not sure about the use of "Motown" as a generic term. To my mind, Motown music means music released on Motown Records, and while that forms part of northern soul, it's not synonymous with it. Bonalaw 11:06, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Actually, I've removed Northern Soul as a synonym and put it in a "see also" at the bottom of the article. The whole thing needs to be put more in the context of the record label itself, there's very little that I would delete from the article but it needs quite a bit added, particularly about the founding of the company and what happened with it in the 1970s and beyond. Bonalaw 11:13, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The Motown sound, I do believe, refers not to the genre or style created and popularized by Motown records, but rather to the actual "sound" of the music created by low quality equipment and innovative production techniques (possibly including arrangments, insofar as song arrangement is a production concern). Hyacinth 21:21, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It's a combination of the two. The "Motown Sound" is primarily its own subgenre of music; essentially representing what could be labeled Detroit soul because, true indeed, more labels than Motown utilized the sound. There are certain characteristics to the way Motown records are written and what instruments are used; the production and arrangment is also, as you alluded to, characteristic of the "Motown Sound".
Sure, no problem with the characteristic sound of Motown being covered in the aticle but at the moment that seems to be the only aspect that's covered. Bonalaw 09:41, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I removed the text and picture refering to the Tom Clay article. The information has next to nothing to do with a general overview of the label. --b. Touch 20:00, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

'Bold text'Picture of Hitsville USA Building That picture has been digitally altered. I was at this location less than two weeks ago and there is no bulding to the left as in the picture. That building burnt down in the early 70's and the lot is now vacant.

[edit] Merge "Motown Sound" here?

I am proposing that the Motown Sound article be merged into this one. My reasoning is as follows:

  • "Motown Sound" as a "style of soul music" is an awfully amorphous term. I don't think it's a legitimate "style", like "rockabilly" or "free jazz". Motown's sound changed throughout the 60s and 70s, and multiple "styles" of soul might be heard even with the same album.
  • The Motown Sound article doesn't do a particularly good job of defining/describing it, and I suspect that the definition can't be improved much. It talks about the use of a tambourine, etc. Does that mean that classic Motown recordings which DON'T use a tambourine are not part of the Motown sound? For example, does the Motown Sound include Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On", or the synth-driven songs by Stevie Wonder in the 1970s? Or if Motown Records releases a 2007 album by a new artist, would that be part of the "Motown sound"?
  • My take is that "Motown Sound" isn't so much a distinct style of music as it is a marketing term coined by Motown Records that was picked up by the media and entered the vernacular. I don't think you can talk much about the "sound" apart from the record label and the people involved with it (the Funk Brothers, Holland-Dozier-Holland, etc), so it can probably be covered adequately by the "Motown Records" article. Plus, I don't think Wikipedia should be in the business of devoting a separate article to a marketing slogan.
  • Furthermore, as per WP:MM, it's a good idea to merge "two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there does not need to be a separate entry for every concept in the universe." Vandelay 18:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Wait a minute, you're going to just remove my "merge" proposal after three days without even discussing it or without waiting to find out what others think? Vandelay 00:22, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The articles don't necessarily overlap. Motown Records is a long article about a record label. Motown Sound is a moderate-length article about a subgenre of R&B/soul music that came out of that label, and transcended it to the point that other musicians used the sound as well. There is no need to merge, especially if we have hundreds of articles on The Beatles and articles on every made-up subgenre of heavy metal music. I've learned that WP:MM doesn't apply to anything championed by white teenaged males.
The Motown Sound refers only to the distinct style of music the company made during the mid to late 1960s, from about 1963 to about 1971. It is indeed a distinct style of soul music, and perfectly recognizable. Most musicologists identify it as a legitimate style. The key is that outside performers (Jerry Butler, pre-Motown Edwin Starr, The Foundations) recorded in the style, and its influence is evident in many performers' work, in particular The Beatles.
Motown Sound isn't a complete article on the style, but a complete one could be written. It's primarily waiting for someone who is literate in musical terms to write it. No, it doesn't rely upon the use of a tambourine. No, What's Going On is not recorded in the "Motown Sound" style (which was the entire point of the LP), nor were Stevie Wonder's post-1972 recordings. No, nothing Motown Records makes in 2007 represents the Motown Sound in anyway; the company primarily exists in name only, as this article explains. I suppose a better idea would be to move the article to Detroit soul (which isn't a "trademarked slogan"), and revise it there. But who's going to write it? --FuriousFreddy 02:12, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
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