Talk:Motoko Kusanagi

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Contents

[edit] Major or Sergeant Major?

Is she a Major officer or a Sergeant Major? In GITS:SAC2 episode where they fight the sniper (Saito) they refer to her as "the Major", yet she didn't appear to be the officer in charge. An NCO was apparently in charge in that episode. Jigen III 12:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Interesting point. Could be because the JSDF was not "officially" overseas fighting, but I have no proof of that. TomStar81 07:26, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps she was a sergeat major back then, and has later been made a Major officer. She would most likely be quite high ranking, considering she's second in command in a high-up government organization.
She is an officer. Her subordinates and superiors address her in the series and manga as "Major," and in a manga episode that was not animated, one of her former superiors who she was after for espionage addressed her as "Lieutenant." --BrokenSphere 04:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Major is not her Section 9 rank, it is merely a nickname that she acquired, possibly from some former military service. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.129.54.110 (talk) 04:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] To Do

  • add history
  • add info on her prosthetic body
  • add info on her from manga, SAC (perhaps comparison in order?)

I added a bit to her prostetic body, which might be better suited to a separate section. I just wanted to open up the page to information on 1). Why she dresses the way she does. 2). To what extent her brain has to be organic to still control her ghost (The GiTS:SAC page gives conflicting info) 3). Her tough guy personality, and when she shows a softer side, and what it says about her as a character. I'm in the US watching reruns on adult swim, so I don't have all the info other people might have.

I think the info about "when she shows a softer side" will need to wait until everyone's done with 2nd GiG, since that has a LOT to do with her motives and her past, and one of the most important times she does show said softer side. We discussed this on the Koukau Kidoutai LJ community recently here. Kawa 01:44, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Alias Reference

Does anyone recall what the name of her online avatar in SAC (I believe it was episode 9) was as given in the credits? This seems like it could go under aliases since it was not Motoko's own name. --Katsuhagi 02:48, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it was Chroma. 217.134.72.238 02:40, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] just added to that to do list

Do we actually know who the boy in the plane accident is? If so can someone add a link to it in the body of the article

Isn't it Kuze? Too many references. The exchange with the Major, the fact that he was a cyborg since young, the paper crane folding habit... CABAL 15:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I believe it is. I can't say for sure but I've seen in at least two places that it was. --Katsuhagi 02:55, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

don't know who's editing this - love GitS, mainly SAC, wanted to help out since the article looks a bit old (and stubby.) Kawa 18:51, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Is she lesbian (see 8th episode of Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex)? Samohyl Jan 16:17, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

It's not fully sure. She has a sort of lesbian cyber brain trip in the first manga, but she also has a boyfriend. So really, no one can know. Kawa 05:03, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
From what I've read about that scene, it's some sort of virtual cyborg pornography that only works with cyborgs of the same sex. It has to do with compatible parts and such, that's the reason why Batou feels nauseous after cutting in.
Anyway, Motoko's lesbian friends show up in GitS:SAC, including the Nurse, so it's like canon. I agree with Dread Lord CyberSkull, I think it's probably easier to classify her as a bisexual. --YoungFreud 21:34, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
All she seems to be bi to me. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 06:18, 2005 July 30 (UTC)
I've seen in a few places that she's bisexual (including something supposedly from Shirow himself) and it generally seems to be consensus among fans. --Katsuhagi 02:53, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

The grammar of the second paragraph is so convoluted that it is impossible to understand. Who is the girl in question? Motoko? Another person? Would it be possible to make some phrases with standard subject, verb and complement please? --AlainV 03:06, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

i agree, the second paragrph seems to be in dire need of major copyediting, or perhaps someone knowledgeable in the subject should rewrite it from the ground up. --Tani unit 15:45, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I'll be all over it when the 2nd GIG is realeased. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 10:16, 2005 August 30 (UTC)

I propose that no large scale changes be made until the end of the 2nd GIG finishes. At that point, we can do one major overhaul to get all the relevant information into the article, which (IMHO) would be much better than making small edits every time something new pops up in the 2nd GIG. I suggest doing it this way because we (that is to say some Users and anons) have the latter problem on the Fullmetal Alchemist charactor pages: everytime an episode ends the information contained in a relevent article needs to be check for inconsistancies and upgraded with new info and such. Its a real pain in that place that you sit on, if you catch my drift. TomStar81 06:22, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

If you want, I can work on the article in terms of stuff we know about the character from the film, because I'm working on that article right now. This article on Kusanagi seems very focused on what we know from Stand Alone Complex, and I think it would be a great idea to add in info from the context of the films or the manga (which I have not read), because as of now, this article does not address some of the inmportant events in her life, such as her merge with the Puppet Master. In any case, I would like to start working on the character bio in the context of the first film immediately after I finish the article on it. What do you all think? Boneheadmx 14:13, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Better yet, why don't we split this article into two sections: one can cover the major in in the movie and film areana, the other in the anime series. This would allow you and others to begin the overhaul by discussing events in the movies and films that have already happened. We can save the SAC content until the end of the 2nd GIG. TomStar81 03:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Sounds good, I'll start with the article in the film context as soon as I'm done with the editing the article for the film itself. You know, it's really weird how little info and people there are working on Ghost in the Shell as a whole project because a lot of other animes definitely have extensive coverage. It's just that it seems like the work around here is going a bit slow. If you need any help on your end, I'll be happy to give a hand. I haven't seen SAC, but still if you need me to look over anything, I might be able to help. Alright, thanks. Boneheadmx 04:11, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I apreciate the offer, and may take you up on that when I start up the SAC part. For now, though, I have got to go study for my final exams. Its to bad that I don't have a cyberbrain, otherwise storing and retrieving infomation on Math 0311 would be so easy... <sigh> ;-) TomStar81 09:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Got the first part of the SAC down. Let me know what you think. TomStar81 23:48, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Different Variations On The Character

Don't the mangas, anime and movies have different storylines? Aren't each incarnation of Motoko different? I think we should make that more clear.

Your wish has been granted. :) "Motoko Kusanagi is protrayed in different ways across the different media of manga, movie, and anime. Since each of these have different storylines, the character has been adapted in different ways to reflect the focus of the story. Thus, her physical as well as mental characteristics differ widely from story to story, and this is reflected in the different ways that artists draw her." I will keep adding information to this. I have been working on the movie version of the character in order to contrast it with the SAC character. If anyone would like to step up and take charge for the manga character, it would be great. Boneheadmx 23:40, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Also, I think someone should get an image of Kusanagi from the manga to compare with the art from the animes and the movies. The anime and manga versions of her look quite similar while the movie version portrays her a bit differently, making her look older. Boneheadmx 00:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
OK, so I've found some images of the Major in the various mangas. These two pages here and here contain some examples. We can use these to contrast the different ways that artists have portrayed the character. Personally, I would choose this (NOTE: Contains adult content.) ;). In all actuality, though, that would be highly inappropriate, so let's choose one that we can all agree on. Boneheadmx 10:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Citation?

I've been looking at the Citation tag in the GITS2: Innocence section for a while now, and it seems to be in increasing dire need of replacement each time I look at it. Should it be removed, or should I put in the quote from the "Making of" video included on the DVD?

"[Motoko] You are in the danger zone"

Notice I specifically referred to that video. The main movie itself replaces the Motoko in the captions with just Woman. CABAL 16:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I was the one who placed that citation tag and I will give you two reasons:

  1. I didn't believe it from my own viewings of the movie.
  2. If it was true I wanted to know exactly why it was true, not just some assertion.

So, if you can find an outside source (or I suppose the movie counts as an inside source), cite it. --Cyde Weys 16:54, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Can't really offer anything beyond what's shown in the "Making of Ghost in The Shell 2: Innocence" video included on the DVD. The vid at about 10:50 shows the cutscene where Batou is warned that he is "inside the killzone" while within the store, and at 10:55 it cuts to the recording studio, where Motoko's voice actor (Atsuko Tanaka) is saying the exact same thing. Batou's voice actor is visible in the shot as well. CABAL 10:38, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

It is possible that Batou was ghosthacked to believe that Motoko was helping him. This would be one instance where the voiceacting is justified, but not necessarily asserting the undeniable "fact" that it really was Motoko. I think that the source of her voice is a matter of debate as it is unclear whether it was actually her advising him or that he was ghosthacked to believe an arbitrary voice was Motoko which was guiding him. Though it is true the fact that Atsuko Tanaka did voice the line supports the possibility that it was Motoko who was speaking to Batou, the fact that the "danger zone" or "kill zone" statement turned out to be false points against the possibility that it was Motoko because she would not harm Batou with such false information. Personally, I would just sidestep the issue entirely and just leave it out. Boneheadmx 12:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

False? But he was in danger...from his left arm. Mayhaps the Major only got wind of it and could not discern any further details, merely being able to inform him only that he was in danger of some sort. I'd agree with leaving it out entirely, though. CABAL 14:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cyberization definition?

I changed the caption of the "Young Motoko" picture so that it says "Young Motoko after undergoing full cyberization." The old caption referred to "receiving cybernetic implants", which is not really correct.

After rereading the caption and section, I realized that cyberization isn't clearly defined. Clicking the cybernetic link takes you to an article that deals more with the history and theory of cybernetics, rather than the fictional possibilities. Short of adding to the cybernetics article, do you think that cyberization needs to be defined here? --Tachikoma 21:48, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Not here specifically, but an entry on the primary Ghost in the Shell page would probably be good. IMHO, in Gits, cyberization is the act of converting oneself from a human to a cyborg. This process may be as simple as having a finger or toe replaced, or it may be as complicated as having ones entire body switched. TomStar81 04:53, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Depends on your definition of cyborg. If you go with the strict real-life definition, a human that cannot survive without his machine parts, then a guy with a pacemaker constitutes a cyborg. Why not consider cyberization and cyborgization to be separate? In the context of GITS, cyberization would only mean cyberizing the brain, as in the case of Togusa. However, no one in the show considers Togusa to be a cyborg since he lacks any other prosthetics. Indeed, now that I think about it, unless you have something other than the basic cyberbrain enhancement, the people in GITS still consider you human. CABAL 07:30, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Good point. I can agree to that. TomStar81 09:37, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
One thing is that I don't think they explicitly define cyberization in either SAC series. I haven't seen the movies. I think that Togusa is referred to as "a natural" because he has a cyberbrain implant but nothing else. The Major is referred to as "fully cyberized", which up until now I had thought meant that she has an entirely prosthetic body, but now I realize that it could refer to just the prosthetic brain. Yes, I realize that if your natural body were entirely replaced, you would end up with an artificial brain.
As for the term "cyborg", I believe the SAC series have only used it when talking about people who are more machine than human, both in the physical sense and in the way they behave. Look at the "Portraitz" episode, where Togusa meets a cyborg at a facility for Closed Shell Syndrome patients. If I remember correctly, the cyborg seems to act as if programmed to do set tasks.
I'm not sure how to define cyberization. --Tachikoma 15:23, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, if you look closely at the screens when they show personnel data for people, it explicitly lists level of enhancement as "cyborged". For example, the average Individual Eleven member was at least 50%, while the Major is well over 90%. The android in the CCS facility was just acting in a very serious, no-nonsense manner. Bodyguards in real-life have the exact same behaviour because their jobs do not tolerate screw-ups very well.
Also, if I remember correctly, the same term is used for the CCS-facility 'borg and the Minister's lackey whom attacked the Sunshine Society. The only common thing I can think of is that they're both heavily-modified. If you need screencaps, I can provide them. I have the DVDs for the first and second movies, along with the complete sets for Stand Alone Complex and 2nd GIG. If for some odd reason you want to put sample music in one of the articles, I have the OSTs for the second movie and 2nd GIG too. CABAL 18:30, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
You have an advantage over me in that I just have most of the second series taped off the TV. Would you perhaps be more comfortable in writing this? I don't mean to dump this on you, but you seem to have thought about this quite a bit. --Tachikoma 20:31, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't even know where to begin, especially considering that the original source material never bothered to clarify this. Tell you what, someone start something, and I'll shove it full of material, fluff and references. CABAL 20:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
In that case I will create a rough draft in my sand box touching on the aspects of this conversation. We can add to it (or subtract from it, as the case may be) from there. On a related note, should we start a whole new article for this or merely add it as a new section in an existing article? TomStar81 20:57, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
One thing to keep in mind is that there is an article called Cyborgs in fiction, which may be of use. The article doesn't mention GiTS in any way, but it does seem to have a low threshold for what counts as a cyborg--Geordi La Forge is mentioned as an example. --Tachikoma 21:15, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth I think it's made pretty clear through the manga, anime, and movies that the Major is a full cyborg. In this context "full cyborg" means everything is cyberized except for the brain; if the brain, too, becomes a computer, then it's just an android. What I'm not clear on is if the Major's "cyberbrain" is some sort of enhancement or a replacement for the natural brain. Anyway, she would still be a cyborg because she still has her ghost in the shell ... this is in contrast to Proto (from SAC 2nd Gig), who was never human. --Cyde Weys 03:30, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it mentioned somewhere in the source material that her natural brain and a small section of spine are left? A cyberbrain is just a brain encased in a computerized shell, making it suitable for transplantation like any other organ and system-operation via MMI. By the way, does anyone know if there's an episode where they show the Major's stats like level of cyborgization?
P.S. What is the exact extent of replacement for Motoko? In real-life, damage to the first three or four sections of neck vertebrae causes more or less complete paralysis for everything below the neck. Damage at the first and/or second vertebrae causes immense breathing and speaking difficulties. Damage at the third vertebrae leaves the person with comparatively-normal breathing, talking and other things requiring control over structures of the neck. Damage at the fourth allows for the above and limited operation of the shoulders. CABAL 09:34, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Item A) I remeber hearing that the major was roughly 90% cyborg, but at the moment I can not remember the source.
Item B) I have rough draft in my sandbox; if you would like to read through it then click here. I am aware that this still needs work, but its a start. TomStar81 03:36, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Mind if I edit the article on your Sandbox? I see several areas for improvement already. CABAL 09:09, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I'll make an exception this one time, seeing as how we need some room to write. Feel free to edit as you see fit. TomStar81 09:36, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
2 suggestions:
1. "Several discusses throughout the Ghost in the Shell universe attest to the difficulty of conclusivly"
Perhaps "discussions" and "conclusively" would be better.
2. "he lacks anything beyond the basic cyberbrain upgrade, which everyone needs to have."
I'm not sure how you would want to integrate this, but I think it's rare enough not to have a cyberbrain implant in GITS:SAC that it really stands out. I don't know what exact episodes say it, but I'm certain that it has been said a couple of times. --Tachikoma 16:11, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
How about..."he lacks anything beyond the basic cyberbrain upgrade, which everyone is more or less expected to have, much like a computer or handphone today in the real world." CABAL 17:56, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Points noted and spelling corrected. I am debating on whether to start a whole new article for my cuberization draft or simply attempt to incorporate it into one of the existing articles. What do you all think? TomStar81 03:02, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I suggest incorporation into an existing article. The page should only start splitting when the Wikipedia software starts complaining that the article is starting to get too large. CABAL 09:31, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What's a splashpanel?

The term is used several times in the Manga entry. A wikilink or definition would be helpful. Is it a sexual term or a comic book term? And the Major has 32^2 nerve endings? Why not say 1024? The whole Manga entry is rather poorly written.

Nah nah nah you totally misread nerve endings. It's a measure of how many nerve endings per square area of skin, not a total number that is expressed in an unnecessary exponent. And "splashpanel" is certainly not a pornography term; it is a comic book term. I just don't know exactly what it means. --Cyde Weys 05:48, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

A splash panel is a large panel that takes up most or all of page of a comic book for dramatic effect. Splash panels are usually used for dramatic introductions or action sequences, though they do appear in other contexts. - CNichols 06:18, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I was also wondering what a splashpanel is. Maybe it would be appropriate to explain this for the reader? --84.169.58.57 18:01, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

The number of nerve endings is expressed throughout the manga as 16^2 (not 256, and not 32^2 or 1024). --217.134.72.238 02:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CIS vs CIA

On the television I would swear that I am hearing Gouda’s group refered to as the "Cabinet Intelligence Service", yet here it seems to be the "Cabinet intelligency Agency". Which is it, and if its not CIS why am I hearing that? TomStar81 10:19, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

"Cabinet Intelligence Agency" is how it was translated in fansubs before the series was liscensed. Likewise, the Individual Eleven were translated as the "Particularist Eleven". -- Staren

[edit] "bots that resemble tachikomas"

Unless the fansub I watched had seriously bad translation, these "bots" are the tachikomas themselves; that is, their AIs. In 2nd Gig they've gained the ability to dissociate their AIs from their bodies (their AIs are not even stored in their bodies any more - the bodies are remote controlled via sattelite, where the AIs are actually stored, though this is transparent and so the tachikomas don't realize it until one of them looks inside one of the others and sees the AI chip is missing). Like the Major's, their cyberbodies are slightly different from their physical ones - the visual form their AIs take in cyberspace is missing parts of their limbs and joints for some reason. --Staren

[edit] The "Stand Alone Complex" section of the article

I removed it entirely. The two paragraphs were just explaining the dividual/individual/dual episodes and the stand alone complex term. They haven't got anything to do with the *character* Motoko Kusanagi and they belong to the Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex page (where they are already explained, so it's also redundant). Pasi 01:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] The note on the 1995 film version

There's a note on the end of this section that says: This needs to be better said. Many humans propagate artificially, after all. Perhaps it means propagates without a physical body? I agree. I propose removing the final sentence and adding this:

"The puppet master draws numerous distinctions between itself and the characteristics of an organic lifeform. Ultimately, Kusanagi and the Puppet Master agree to merge, forming a new entity with all the advantages of the Puppet Master's abilities in net-space and Kusanagi's physical presence and position, with the added bonus of variety, similar to the variety inherent at a genetic level to offspring of lifeforms which combine the DNA of two parents to form their young. This contrasts with the vulnerability to viruses that is a danger of simply copying a computer program such as the Puppet Master, or transferring to another prosthetic body as Kusanagi does."

Any thoughts? YourMessageHere 03:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Age

The article says the Major's cyborg body has the appearance of a 25-year old, but her real age is mid-thirties. I'm sure somewhere I've read/heard her real age is a lot more - mid-fifties perhaps? Can anyone confirm this? --217.134.72.238 02:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

In the comic continuity, her age is unknown as is if she was ever human to begin with (209.248.160.82 16:24, 26 March 2007 (UTC))

[edit] "Themes of pedophilia"?

Maybe it's just me, but to say that the series "raises themes of pedophilia" on the basis of one scene in one episode in which Kusanagi appears to proposition a minor (who is, as the article says, a teenager, not a small child) seems a bit extreme. The sentence would seem to imply that the theme recurs in the series on a semi-frequent or at least occasional basis; however, that is not the case. As such, I don't think the pedophiliac overtones of the one scene are significant enough to Kusanagi's overall characterization to require an entire paragraph devoted to them. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this matter? Bouncybluepenguin 06:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

One also needs to consider the age of consent in Japan is 13 - lower than most countries in Europe and North America 87.112.19.182 18:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Deleted the reference. Pedophilia is sexual attraction to pre-sexual children. The scene in question has absolutely nothing to do with pedophilia.

[edit] Differences in releases

There is a problem with the sexuality section, in reference to e-sex. "This panel was cut from the American release of the manga, as it would have entailed giving the book an "adults only" rating and Shirow decided it wasn't important to the plot." This statement is false, as the Dark Horse American publishing has the scene in question, in all it's uncut glory. The only thing appearing to be missing is the explanation of what the scene is supposed to mean (until now I thought it was simply fan-service). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.106.221.56 (talk) 18:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] new redirect

i added "the major" as a redirect

hope no one has a problem with it, if so please let me know

peace Ancientanubis 22:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

"the major" could refer to anyone anytime who held that rank, or even if they didn't. I've changed it to redirect to the Major article. --Gwern (contribs) 04:37 25 January 2007 (GMT)

[edit] caracter analisys

second paragraph

"Did you dress like that just to distract me?" to the Major, who replies "Like I can help it."

it's in episode 14.She is actually not very dressed because she landed in garbage earlier.That's why the remark is made in the first place.--Pierson's Puppeteer 00:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

No one has mentioned that when you remove the sex scene from the comic, with the exceptions of the cover art, Motoko is hardly ever wearing particularly revealing in the original comic, and is usually pretty covered up all the time. I read somewhere that shiro wanted those pages pulled from the TPB because he realized how much it changed the dynamic of the character. 209.248.160.82 16:26, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original Research

Please add some references to the Character Analysis section.


  • This section contains information taken from the manga Ghost in the Shell.
  • This section contains information taken from the manga Ghost in the Shell 1.5: Human Error Processor.
  • This section contains information taken from the manga Ghost in the Shell 2: Man/Machine Interface.
  • This section contains information taken from the anime Ghost in the Shell.
  • This section contains information taken from the anime Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence.
  • This section contains information taken from the anime Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex.
  • This section contains information taken form the anime Ghost in the Shell: S.A.C 2nd GIG.
  • This section contains information taken from the anime Ghost in the Shell: S.A.C. Solid State Society
  • This section contains information taken from the novel Ghost in the Shell: White Maze.
  • This section contains information taken from the novel Ghost in the Shell: Revenge of the Cold Machines.
  • This section contains information taken from the novel Ghost in the Shell: The Lost Memory.
  • This section contains information taken from the novel Ghost in the Shell: After the Long Goodbye.
There. A comprehensive list of sources for the section (and by extension, the entire article). TomStar81 (Talk) 19:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Plot

I disagree with the fact that the plot is to long. Its only talking about the character and her motivations. You can only do that by mentioning the sytuations she gets in in the movies, anime and manga. The reason the plot thread is so long is because there is simply alot to tell about the star of the Ghost in the Shell series. Fell free to disagree, but this is my pov.--62.163.98.243 10:52, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

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