Talk:Moshe Aryeh Friedman
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article was nominated for deletion on December 13 2006. The result of the discussion was keep. |
Contents |
[edit] Category suggestion: Jewish anti-Zionism
Currently there is an an anti-Zionism category but there are multiple strains within it. There are some branches of anti-Zionism that are clearly anti-Semitic, but there are other branches, such as this Judaic branch that bases its anti-Zionist beliefs in religious interpretations, which include Moshe Aryeh Friedman (and Neturei Karta in general, although there are numerous others see: [1].) Thus I propose that we create a category called "Jewish anti-Zionism" as a subcategory of anti-Zionism to make the distinction between this branch of anti-Zionism and the others clear. --70.48.243.138 21:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
- I agree. --169.132.18.248 10:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] extensive article on Friedmann
lizaswelt.blogspot.com, a German blog entry, but with some sound sources given for some information.
Time given, I might expand the article and corroborate what follows with the Austrian Press: Moshe is a self-styled "Chief Rabbi", having attended a Kollel for some years without receiving a diploma. Besides, his jewish "congregation" is not acknowleged by the Austrian government, as he presented a members list containing some signatures given unwittingly, and some others that could not be verified. For what is known, he's a one man operation. Austria's real Chief Rabbi and all Vienna Rabbis, both orthodox and ultra-orthodox, condemned his conduct.
I saw the guy at the last al-Quds day in Berlin, Germany, speaking up for the organisers. Here's some German Islamists interviewing him on that occasion, and some pictures. That he was born 1972 in New York might be true, the rest is bull. --tickle me 13:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Rabbi" Friedman
Chief Rabbi Yonah Metzger has explicitly challenged whether or not Rabbi Friedman does indeed have Rabbinic ordination (semicha) that would allow him to use the title. Rabbi Metzger's challenge is public and sourced. The BBC source used to justify the title only shows that he is called "Rabbi" but makes no statement as to where (or from whom) Rabbi Friedman received his semicha. That people will readily assume that anyone with a white coat in a hospital is a doctor or that anyone with a long beard and hasidic garb is a Rabbi, does not make it so. While we should have explicit sources for all Rabbanim, the fact that we have such a public challenge from a reliable source dictates that we have some source that says something like "Rabbi Friedman received his semicha from..." that would constitute a verifiable confirmation of his claimed status. That he is referenced as a Rabbi in an article in the general media does not satisfy this standard. Alansohn 14:24, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
- Do you have a source for Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum being a rabbi? Well, of course he had 120,000 followers and presided numerous Jewish legal courts, but, do you have any reliable source for him being a rabbi? Similarly, for Rabbi Elazar Menachem Shach? In fact, the latter likely indeed did not have semicha, since especially in the Litvishe world learners don't get smicha. The same thing for Rabbi Aharon Leib Shteinman. Please provide sources that they are rabbis - and the BBC does not qualify - otherwise I will delete all references as 'rabbi' to each of them. I hope you understand that this is ridiculous. If the guy calls himself 'rabbi', fine!
- And what does the 'Chief Rabbi of the State of Israel' have to do with that? The guy is a pathetic Zionist who has no influence and is just a puppet of Rabbi Eliashiv (from whom the Torah community also disengaged due to his involvement with the Zionist State). He himself is accused of numerous crimes including corruption and fraud, and his Sephardic colleague is accused of being involved in a case of kidnapping and beating up an innocent young man.
- So now if I bring you sources that the Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem has stated that Metzger does not have semicha, you are also going to remove the title of 'rabbi' from his name? Please stop this crazy behavior. The fact that you don't agree with him doesn't mean that you can deny his status as 'rabbi'. By the way, I don't hold by him either, he has no status for me either. My rabbi decried him as an extremist who people should stay away from, on a very large distance, and not to support him in any way. But that does not mean that I am going to allow Zionist POV lies to be inserted into this article.
- Regarding the cherem thing, Metzger's 'assistant' said this. --Chussid 17:16, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
-
- I know of no individual who has challenged the semicha of Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, Rabbi Elazar Menachem Shach or Rabbi Aharon Leib Shteinman. If you have verifiable and reliable sources to question the status of these Rabbanim, the place to add them would be to their respective articles. As to Rabbi Yona Metzger, he is the Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel and his sourced statement challenging Friedman's semicha needs to be addressed, regardless of your concerns regarding Rabbi Metzger. It's hard to see issues raised regarding Friedman's semicha as "Zionist POV lies"; after all, all that would be necessary to prove the "lie" is to have someone state where and from whom Friedman is a musmach. Furthermore, your earlier edit summary of "in the chareidi world, we call many people 'rabbi' when they do not have any 'ordination'" would seem to tacitly acknowledge that Friedman's status as "Rabbi" is at best a colloquial title. Alansohn 06:34, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Rabbi Yonah Metzger is not exactly the cream of the rabbinate in Eretz Yisroel, but even if you want to say that a stopped clock is right twice a day, he has every right to condemn Friedman. Even anti-Zionists and non-Zionists like myself, who recognize Metzger as nothing but a politically appointed chief rabbinical clerk of the medina's bureaucratic rabbinate "mi-taam", roundly condemn Friedman. If you go to my site http://www.frumspace.com and click on Outrage of The Year, I have a link to a video of him speaking through a microphone on Shabbos Bereishis 10/21/2006 in Berlin. There is no excuse for Friedman, and no reason to show him for anything but what he is - a freak.
Also, please be careful to note that the AUTHENTIC Neturei Karta condemns him. His buddies Weiss, Cohen, Beck et al call themselves Neturei Karta as well but are not connected with the authentic organization/community/philosophy of Reb Amram Bloy ZYA. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.247.49.37 (talk • contribs).
- Correct, see also the bottom of Talk:Neturei Karta. --Chussid 02:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Haaretz
If anyone is interested: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/810100.html . --Chussid 13:25, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] JPost: Neturei Karta rabbi's kids expelled
First off, even JPost calls this guy a "rabbi" thus it shouldn't be a controversial issue. Second, according to this JPost story, the guy's kids have been expelled for their fathers actions. There are now some legal proceedings underway. Can someone with an account add this information to the article?
--70.48.68.68 18:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
