Talk:Mortise and tenon

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[edit] Stub tenon & mortises

User:Carnildo reverted unexplained changes by an anonymous user who had replaced 5 cm with 5 mm for stub tenons and 7 cm with 7 mm. To me, a 5 cm (2 inch) tenon is not a stub tenon, but just a regular tenon unless it's on a really big piece of wood, as in timber frame construction. I checked with a few references in my woodworking library, and it seems it's another case of different regional usages. In Ernest Joyce's Encyclopedia of Furniture Making as well as a British Woodworkers' Dictionary, a stub tenon is simply a "blind tenon" where the the mortise does not penetrate through the piece. In other mainly American books such as Sam Allen's Wood Joiner's Handbook and Feirer's Cabinetmaking and Millwork, a stub tenon is a really short tenon used mainly in frame and panel construction, where the depth of the tenon on the rail is the same as the depth of the groove on the stile. Comments? Should I revert the reversion?Luigizanasi 20:50, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't know one way or the other, I just know that anonymous users changing numbers or units without an edit summary tend to be wrong. If you've got a source that defines what a stub mortise or stub tenon is, then put in the definition and cite the source for it. --Carnildo 21:25, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I checked the reference at the bottom of the page where the text has been taken, and it does deal with M&T in timber framing, where a 2-inch tenon would be a stub give the size of the timbers used there. The terms need reworking, and we should also talk about fox tenons, haunched tenons, etc. Luigizanasi 21:40, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I was the anonymous user who changed the cm to mm and I've now created an account. I would agree entirely with Luigizanasi and can add a couple of references:- the British "Collins Complete Woodworker's Manual" by Jackson and Day and the American "Woodsmith Bookcases, Shelves and Cabinets" pub by Time/Life. I'm not quite sure whether it's a case of regional usage or whether it varies according to the type of construction. Certainly a stub tenon of say, 7mm in a 50mm rail would be very weak, unless it was part of a framed panel, where the panel adds rigidity. Perhaps a percentage of width would be more helpful. If a through tenon is 100%, maybe a stub tenon could be described as being usually between 25% and 75% of the width of the rail containing the mortise. Mollington40 17:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I thought you guys were just splitting hairs here, so I looked it up in "Woodwork in Theory and Practice" by John A Walton (the accepted text for teaching in Australia). While I call a stub tenon any shortish tenon, the book calls a it a stub or stump tenon when it does not pass right through the material, and recommends that the length of the tenon is usually about 2/3rds the width of the stile. In my experience John Walton is usually right!! LOLMarkAnthonyBoyle 14:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC) ps I added the bit about 1/3rd the thickness of the rail. I hope this agrees with other users

Welcome to the wonderful world of woodworking terminology, where the same term means different things and different terms mean the same thing and everything is a confused morass.  :-) The best we can do is document them all and provide redirects and disambiguation pages Luigizanasi 18:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)