Talk:Mormon War

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I changed the text about Governor Boggs back, but I softened the writing by saying "a degree of" and "somewhat" and this sort of thing. This change "Boggs had shown fairness" --- where does that come from? I think historians --- not just Mormons --- agree that Boggs didn't show fairness. If anyone has a source that says otherwise, I would like to see a reference. --John Hamer 04:38, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Inaccurate Changes to Daviess Expedition Removed 2 Let's try to work together 3 Johnston's Army 4 Supplemental Articles 5 What happened next?

[edit] Inaccurate Changes to Daviess Expedition Removed

The section on the Daviess Expedition was changed to include information that is not accurate. The text was changed to read:

Splitting into three companies, the Mormons marched on the three major non-Mormon settlements in the county under the direction of General Parks and as official state militia. The purpose was to disperse the mobs forming to attack Adam-ondi-Ahman and restore order to the county. Apostle David W. Patten led the attack on Gallatin, Lyman Wight headed the troops assigned to Millport, and Seymour Brunson led a smaller detachment against the Grindstone Forks settlement. Fleeing, the mobbers set fire to their homes and fields and blame the mormons later.

[Changes in bold.]

While it is true that apologists for the Mormons used to make the preposterous claim that the Missourians set fire to their own homes, no reputable historian would ever repeat such a thing today. See the two key current sources on the Mormon War:

• Stephen C. LeSueur, The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri, University of Missouri Press, 1990.
• Alexander L. Baugh, A Call to Arms: The 1838 Mormon Defense of Northern Missouri, BYU Studies, 2000.

I will look up the exact references when I have them in front of me. Using the term "mobbers" to refer to the Missourians who were being driven from their homes is rather the opposite of NPOV. In fact, it is the Mormons who were acting as a "mob," in that they illegally entered the county, drove out the Missourian settlers, stole their chattles and burned their homes.

The article as written was neutral. It acknowledged the wrongs and injustices of both the Mormons and the Missourians. I've reverted it to the way it had been. --John Hamer 00:07, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I was quoting journal selections from some of the members of the expedition. It was compiled in the history book that I have at home and I'll quote when I get back. Jgardner 21:09, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't know by what means you claim no historian would claim that anti-mormons would set fires to their own property. They were murderous rapists bent on driving the mormons from the state and taking their property. Mormon records indicate that no property was taken except to feed the army. No property was burned by the mormons. When the mormons would arrive at a burning property, they would put the fire out. They weren't driving them out - they were disbanding the mobs!

I'd also like to state for the record that what you are arguing has no effect on the other change. The mormons were assembled at the order of the state militia. They fought as legitimate state militia. They were ordered by the general to disband the mobs. The mobs were threatening to drive out the mormons from Daviess with physical force, while the mormons were peacefully co-existing with them, even submitting to the duly elected judge of the county. The term "mob" is especially appropriate because they were not pacifists - they were assembling and conspiring to do to Adam-ondi-Ahman what they had recently accomplished in De Witt! Jgardner 21:21, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Missourians in Daviess County were "murderers and rapists," were they? Who did they murder? Who was raped? I'm sorry to say that you seem unaware of the facts. Your use of the highly partisan term "mobbers" implies to me that you are an apologist. I suggest you read BYU professor Alexander Baugh's work, A Call to Arms: 1838 Mormon Defense of Northern Missouri."

Baugh states: "On October 18, Mormon companies made up of men from Caldwell and Daviess Counties, and comprised of both regular militia as well as members of the Danite society, visited the three settlements" [Millport, Gallatin, Grindstone Fork]. He continues, "The attack on Gallatin, the county seat, came as a surprise to the townspeople..." He quotes Joseph H. McGee, saying "150 [Mormons] came into Gallatin and finding but 17 men in the place they run them out and took possession of the town. The removed the goods out of Stolling's store and burned the house. They then took the goods to Di Ammon" [Adam-ondi-Ahman]. (p. 86)

Baugh concludes: "Gallatin was nearly completely gutted. The only structure left unscathed was a small shoemaker's shop owned by a Mr. Borwell. The effects of the Mormon destruction at Gallatin could be seen for several miles." He states, "Similar activities were conducted at Millport as well as a smaller settlement known as Splawn's Ridge." (p. 87)

Baugh corrects your error in claiming that the Mormons only took property for the needs of the army. He states: "During the days following the assaults on Gallatin, Millport and Grindstone Fork, Mormon soldiers brought into Diahman wagons loaded with furniture, household items, bedding, clothing, foodstuffs, and bee-stands confiscated during the raids." (p. 89)

I've discussed the claims about mobbers burning their own houses in my revision of your revision.

Your statements about General Hiram G. Parks are confused. You are conflating a legitimate movement of the non-Mormon state militia to Caldwell and Daviess Counties in mid-September with the illegal movement of the Mormon militia from Caldwell County to Daviess County that occurred in mid-October. The Mormons did not fight as legitimate state militia. To do so, they would have to be so authorized to act outside their county. They were not. As such they were a "mob." The residents of Daviess County whose homes were burned and whose property was stolen by the Mormon "mob" --- which term, though accurate, I am not using in the article, please note --- included many people who were not involved in any anti-Mormon vigilante activity. The Mormons expelled the entire non-Mormon population from the county. --John Hamer 03:05, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry I wrote you off so quickly. I've been trying to research out this period myself and I am constantly amazed by how much misinformation and misrepresentations there are made about these events. It seems that there are two sides to the stories told during this period. They are irreconciliably different. My interest, ultimately, is to get to the bottom of it and find the truth of the matter. I am an apologist. I can't deny that. But I have a sincere interest in discovering the truth because I believe at the bottom of it all is justification or at least a good rationalitization.

I hope my naivety doesn't put you off. I am not a historian by training. I don't think that matters, however, because even in my field I have seen experts who haven't had much training either. Let's write this article in three facets: The facts as near as can be told; the representation of the facts by LDS apologists; and the representation of the facts by Missourian apologists.

For starters, I think the most reliable source of information is going to be found in the letters of the generals themselves. For an LDS view, we can turn to church history books and to the journal of Joseph Smith. For the Missourian view, I think Joseph H. McGee is a good representation.

Here is my list of facts as near as I can tell:

• Joseph Smith went with Lt. Col. Hinckle with about 100 men. Joseph Smith rallied the troops. Lt. Col. Hinckle led them. General Doniphan ordered it to be done. The purpose was to protect Diahman from the reported 800 people gathering from neighboring counties. These 800 were beating Mormons; driving away their flocks and herds; stealing their goods; burning their houses. The 800 had a cannon with them.
• General Parks was sent by Governor Boggs to investigate the Mormon conflict in Daviess. Upon arrival, he orders Col. Lyman Wight to raise troops and put down the assembling mob.
• The 800 flee when they hear of the Mormon militia forming. They bury the cannon in the road.
• The Mormon militia spread out into the county; they plunder the county; they burn houses. Some of the 800 also burn houses to blame the Mormons later. The cannon is discovered by a sow digging in the road.
• No fighting takes place. No one is injured or killed.
• The goods taken are given to the church. After the Mormon War, people go to Diahman and Far West to recover their stolen goods.

We can talk about the apologetics' explanations and rationalizations later.

Does this agree with what you understand? Which aspects are in dispute and need further clarification? Have you read the letters in the RLDS History of the Church? Have you read Joseph Smith's account? I have read through McGee's account. Jgardner 05:17, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry that I was hasty too. I'm glad that we share a common goal of getting at the truth. I see now that you are doing a lot of digging into the sources and so I'm not put off by you and I hope that we can work together, (see my note below). Here's where I disagree with your above working notes:

• I don't agree with the number "800" — people in the past often exaggerated numbers. How would the Mormons know how many people were in the opposing vigilante group? If there were that many, why would they flee? They'd outnumber the Mormons. I prefer to say "groups of Missourian vigilantes." There was more than one group of Missourian vigilantes. The ones with the cannon had come up illegally from Carroll County, I think. I'll have to check. That group did bury the cannon and flee and the Mormons confiscated the cannon.

• Doniphan did not order the Mormons to Daviess County. As Smith's lawyer, he cautioned that it would be illegal for the Caldwell militia to march under arms to Daviess County. Parks did not authorize Wight to "put down the mob." LeSueur has this to say about the sources you are relying on: "The Mormons later tried to justify their activities in Daviess County by asserting that General Parks had ordered them into the field during his visit to Diahman. This claim, like the assertion that General Doniphan authorized their expedition to Daviess County, is misleading. First, Parks did not arrive in Diahman until after the Mormons had begun their activities, including the sacking of Gallatin. Second, Parks did not report ordering the Mormons into the field. Finally, although Parks probably advised the Mormons to fight in self-defense, he certainly did not instruct them to drive Daviess settlers from their homes." (LeSueur, p. 123).

• I agree that the Missourian vigilantes burned Mormon houses. For any account of beatings, I would like to have a witness or a victim's account cited --- not just general hearsay that there were beatings. I'm not denying that those occurred. Like you say, this is a pivotal event and so we should be careful that specific crimes are well-documented.

• The goods stolen by Mormons were called "consecrated property" and were given over to the bishop and stored in the bishop's storehouse. All of the property was supposed to be given over to the church in this way, but some was kept by individual Mormon vigilantes. --John Hamer 15:25, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

By the way, this source: History of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is completely out of date. The Community of Christ recognizes that it was filled with partisan errors, which is why they commissioned a newer, less partisan history: The Church through the Years by Richard Howard. A new official history has just been commissioned to replace Howard's book and it will be published in 2007.

Were the letters quoted false? Jgardner 05:17, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've made corrections based on more recent scholarship to your expansion of the Daviess Expedition. The article is now accurate again, but I think that the expansion unfortunately emphasizes this part of the Mormon War. The fact is that Missourians acted as vigilantes and attacked Mormons in De Witt and elsewhere and later acted illegally when the Mormons were expelled from the state. But it's also true that the Mormons acted as vigilantes and attacked Missourians, e.g. in Daviess County and at Crooked River. Because you've required so much evidence to back up the latter reality, I think it overemphasizes the Mormon crimes. --John Hamer 04:18, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think you are overquoting Baugh. What sources is Baugh relying on? Not even McGee mentions farms being plundered by Lyman Wight. He told only of the smoke rising from Gallatin. I can only find references to farms burning in the reports made to Governor Boggs by the anti-Mormons.

Why would Joseph Smith write the following? "About this time William Morgan, sheriff of Daviess County, Samuel Bogart, Colonel William P. Peniston, Doctor Samuel Venable, Jonathan J. Dryden, James Stone, and Thomas J. Martin, made communications or affidavits of the most inflammatory kind, charging upon the 'Mormons' those depredations which had been committed by the mob, endeavoring thereby to raise the anger of those in authority, rally a sufficient force around their standard, and produce a total overthrow, massacre, or banishment of the 'Mormons' from the State. These and their associates were the ones who fired their own houses and then fled the county, crying 'fire and murder.'"

Are we to discount Smith's testimony of the events?

I believe the Daviess County event is the pivotal event in the war. It is because of this and the reports of this that the Extermination Order is signed. We should document every atrocity committed by every person as accurately as we can. It is also the first time people felt that they were really at war. Jgardner 05:40, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree that I over-referenced Baugh — I did that to show you the conclusions of a believing LDS professor as published by BYU Studies, i.e., to try to show you that this is not some "Anti-Mormon" conclusion. The same conclusions could be referenced from LeSueur's work. There are a host of primary sources from the Latter Day Saint and Missourian sides that make it clear that it was the Mormons who burned the Missourians' homes in Daviess County. (I will look several up and give them to you. I will also change the article to cite the primary sources.)

Note, however, that you yourself even admit that the Mormons burned homes above, although you want to hold out and say that some of the homes were burned by the Missourians themselves. Unfortunately, yes, we are to discount Smith's testimony. The testimony that Missourians were burning their own homes does not hold up. (It doesn't even past the smell test — people don't generally burn their own homes just so they can blame their enemies for the crime.) Why would Smith write that? Perhaps because there was an outstanding warrant for his arrest on charges relating to these activities. You may not want to believe that Prophets are imperfect and do both good and bad, but Smith would have been the first to correct you. These were trying times, Smith and the Mormons felt threatened and decided to respond to that threat with their own aggression. In doing so, they became just as guilty of mob activity as their perceived persecutors.--John Hamer 15:08, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Let's try to work together

Jgardner --- I'm likewise sorry that I dismissed you quickly and reacted hastily. When I read the change about "mobbers" burning their own houses, I thought you were just a Wikipedia vandal. I would have reacted the same to someone claiming that the Mormons burned their own houses in Jackson County in order to blame the Missourians. You'll note that I reacted similarly when some Anti-Mormon vandal tried to change this article to say that Boggs had always treated the Mormons fairly. That's simply not true — Boggs clearly acted with negative bias toward the Mormons.

I agree with you that the primary sources are the most important sources. There are a great bulk of primary sources for this period, and yes I have read many, many of them. However, many of the primary sources are partisan. You have to consider them all and weigh them against each other. For many of the events, much of scholarship has reached a reasonable consensus on many issues in the past 20 years. The accounts in both Baugh and LeSueur match on almost all the issues — I've been referencing Alex Baugh for you to show you what believing, practicing LDS scholars have now said.

My goal is to tell this story in a neutral way. I am not an Anti-Mormon in any way. My ancestors lived in Far West; their property was wrongly appropriated and they were illegally expelled from the state. I am having an article I wrote on this period published in a compilation by the LDS church's Deseret Book (which I mention to illustrate that my research has not been viewed by the LDS church as "anti")

Let's work together here, if we can. Quote specific sources and references and I'll do my best to answer. --John Hamer 14:53, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Johnston's Army

Could I suggest a disambig at the top to the page to Johnston's Army? Growing up Mormon (there's a title!), the only "Mormon War" I heard about was the US action against the western LDS Settlements. The Missouri troubles/persecutions were not labeled a "war" until college history class. So, our readers might need direction. WBardwin 15:42, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Good point. I wrote a little something, see if that works for you. --John Hamer 01:57, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Supplemental Articles

I've been expanding this article --- it was actually one of the first I wrote, and it really needed some flesh on its bones (especially references) --- but I don't want it to be too long, so I've started to expand some of the supplemental articles. I just made a massive expansion to the Battle of Crooked River article and I hope to hit some of the others soon. --John Hamer 01:57, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What happened next?

I understand that there are a great deal of Mormon articles in Wikipedia, its becoming something of the great saga. At the end of the articles such as this one could you enter a reference under 'see also' a link to the next part of the story. Such as that the Mormons are moved on to Illinois, but what happened there to end up seeing them go to Utah. I understand that these articles have been written, but I am wondering if you could link them up for us so that, if us readers come upon the story at any point we might be ushered on to the next installment or previous happening. Such seems the convenience of the almost linear development of the Mormon story, that it would be served well by this type of delivery.Danieljames626 05:08, 23 April 2006 (UTC)