Talk:Moravians (religion)

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[edit] Moravians are communists?

I heard those Moravian communities also have a pretty unique system of society with a lot of communal property and people that can work just as much as they want to, can anyone tell something about that maybe? --62.251.90.73 00:25, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, do tell. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 20:33, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

seeing that most Moravians in North America are upper class suburbanites, I doubt communist would be an accurate description. They are pretty communal, for the most part, but that's a completely different term.

The Moravians were communal, not communist - yes. All land was owned by the church and it determined what was built (or who lived) on each lot. Outsiders ("strangers") were generally not allowed to freely live in a settlement, though exceptions were sometimes made.

Young Moravian children (of both sexes) received mandatory education from the church.

The congregation was split socially into "choirs" based on sex and status - Married People, Single Brothers, Single Sisters, Widowers, Widows, and Young children (the number and types varies a bit depending of the congregation, but this was generally the form). Some choirs - the Single Brothers and Single Sisters, notably - would eat, worship, and live separately. This social division even applied in death, as the choir system was used in God's Acre (the Moravian cemetary) to determine where you were buried. -- 24.148.249.55 20:16, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hussites?

The article needs work. The contemporary Moravian church owes more to The Franke/Spener school of German Pietism channeled through the charismatic Count Zinzendorf than it does to Huss. The article doesn't adhere to the usual historiography of the Moravian Church, and doesn't mention the church's groundbreaking very early (began in late 1730's) mission work to North America, Greenland, Sri Lanka, and so on. Also, something about the communal organization of early (1738-1760's) Moravian communities needs to be added. Also, how about getting their logo up here?

yes, current Moravian church is more Pietistic than Hussite, but still I found description of the origin of the movement so lucking that is almost funny---it looks like Hus's movement peacefully grown up with some usual level of opposition:

The movement gained royal support and a certain independence for a while, even spreading across the border into Poland, but was eventually forced to be subject to the governance of Rome.

So, the beginning of the article should be IMHO either slightly extended, or at least link to Hussitism should be included.

--Ceplm 13:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

As a Moravian I agree, our roots are very deeply in the Lutheran Pietist soil, BUT The first Moravian exiles, i.e. exiles from the March of Moravia, to come to the estate of Zinzendorf with a view to reviving the old Bohemian Brethren's Church were the "Five Churchmen" who arrived in May, 1724; John Toeltschig and four of them all named David Nitschmann, one of whom would receive episcopal ordination in 1735 from the last surviving bishop of the old Unitas Fratrum. So they SAW themselves as continuing the traditions of the old Bohemian Brethren, even ecclesiastically, sometimes in spite of Zinzendorf who wanted to keep them within the Saxon Lutheran Church. But Zinzendorf himself in 1727 discovered the Ratio Disciplinae of John Amos Comenius, the Moravian bishop who preserved the episcopacy, and was amazed at how closely it resembled the Statutes of Herrnhut, the "Brotherly Agreement" adopted on 12 May 1727. The English Parliament recognized the Moravian Church as "An Ancient Protestant Episcopal CHurch" in 1749 on the basis of this relationship to the old Brethren's Church: the episcopacy and the church order.

[edit] Historic episcopate

Does the Moravian Church claim apostolic succecssion? Carolynparrishfan 23:34, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

• In response to Merging Lovefeast into the Moravian Church arty- NO, the lovefeast may have originated therein, but is used by other denominations as well. No Brainer... except to the culturally insensative! FrankB 18:01, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

• They do and they don't. They do claim that their episcopate is descended historically from the episcopates of other churches through the Waldensian (formerly Catholic) bishops who consecrated their first bishops in 1467. However, an unbroken succession of bishops from the time of the apostles doesn't have the same importance for Moravians that it does for, say, Roman Catholics or Greek Orthodox. The episcopate is more a symbol of unity than a vessel of authority or authenticity. While bishops perform all ordinations, they don't hold the same authority as they do in other churches. They aren't elected to administer any particular territory, don't make assignments of clergy, and don't even make unilateral decisions about whom to ordain. They do have a duty to advise other pastors, but their advice isn't binding. Moravian bishops are more like senior, respected pastors than like Catholic bishops. WilliamBarrett 05:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clean Need

The article starting with references like: "The original attempt to found a Moravian community was in Georgia, but that attempt failed. The Moravians later found a home in Pennsylvania, where the colony provided some of the greatest religious freedom to be found in the world."

Means to mind that this needs a lot of TLC and polish. I don't know if the use of Moravian Church is US-Centric, but the arty certainly implies that when starting this way. As such, I'm placing a Clean template HERE, so someone in the historical corp can check into this and apply some much needed rewriting and organization to the article so that it is arranged and flows more professionally.

FrankB 19:28, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

• I guess that without primary reading of your comments I seem to have performed some of the tasks you urge us to do. I notice now I have still left out the missionary activities of the Moravians. The clean needed-sign is still present, and it is up to you to see if the article is now fit for removal of this sign! Draconarius 23:57, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

• • I have now added information on the missionary activities. I suppose the cleanup called for has now more or less been performed~. Draconarius 07:53, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pietism

I think that we need a clearer break between the ancient Unitas Fratrum and the Renewed Church that Zinzendorf established on his estate in 1725-28. Zinzendorf's Moravians, who contemporary Moravians descend from, were distinctly Pietist. Z's grandmother was friends with Philip Jacob Spener, and Z himself attended August Hermann Francke's school at Halle.

It would also be helpful to describe in a bit more detail Zinzendorf's role in the shaping of the Renewer Church after 1728, as he was in many ways was (and remains) the central figure in the history of this Chrisitian denomination.

These notes on pietism make good sense to me. I wonder why you did not already put in some of these remarks. By the way, you did not sign your contribution. Do not be afraid to sign using the four tildes! Draconarius 21:39, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cleaned and Well Done Draconarius!

[edit] Moravians (religion)

From User Talk:fabartus Hi,

You posted a {{cleanup-date}} message on this article: Moravians (religion). If you feel that it has been satisfactorily cleaned, could you please remove the notice?

Thanks, Andrewjuren 07:12, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

• • Sorry 'bout the delay removing the Clean - I was traveling near continually until this month. IMHO, esp. given the deficiency noted above, one of you guys was better placed to remove the tag... with a word to my talk as notification. But thanks for the courtesy.

FrankB 16:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Does this sentence make sense to you? Some proofreading, then editing is required.

"Until theat stawlwarts exanteosn New Yorh that September 1740 they led him through the unbroken wilderness to Shekomeko where a Moravian mission was established and the two Indians chiefs were converted to the Moravian faith."

[edit] Moravians or Moravian Brethern

Moravia is a region in today's Czech Republic. The term "Moravians" primarily means the inhabitants of that region. It seems rather odd to refer to the Moravian Brethern as "Moravians." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.83.78.91 (talk) 04:21, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

Here in Winston-Salem, they're mostly called "Moravians" though. I hardly ever hear "Moravian Brethern" unless its something official. Besides the churches are most commonly named "Something Moravian Church". It's all disabiguated, so I don't see a problem with it. --TinMan 04:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)