User talk:Monotonehell/talkarch

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[edit] Talk page archive

[edit] Feburary 2006

[edit] Age of Consent

I didn't delete any text; I just moved Massachusetts from 18 to 16, since that's the law there. Dbinder 09:30, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your words, I'm ecstatic to have some good discussion. :-)

Statutory rape stands as its own legal concept. Violations of age of consent are not necessarily "statutory rape" because they didn't actually reach the age at which statutory rape comes into play. My text addition reflects the fact that the term "statutory rape" is a legal term being misused.

Some of this is covered in the third paragraph of the statutory rape article (the text which explains this I wrote myself. :-) I see now that the AOC text that I added really doesn't things explain very well.

On a side note, I said in the statutory rape article that the reason for the confusion is because of all the different laws and non-parallelism from state to state. However, we might just be dealing with the fact that statutory rape laws have been around for some time and are for the most part unchanged (for instance, Ohio's law is 12 years old...which likely was the AOC in Ohio from way back when) and the lesser graded AOC concept with its higher age range is a relatively recent thing. It's a hunch that might be worth including.

How about this for new text: "In the United States, violations of age of consent are often, but inaccurately, called statutory rape. Statutory rape is a much more severe charge where the age of the minor is so young (typically pre-pubescent, 12 and under) that the offense is legally equivalent to forceable rape. This cultural confusion is due to the complexities of sexual offense laws, as well as the historical roots of statutory rape laws (which likely served as the age of consent until the 20th century, at which point modern age of consent laws, and their higher ages, were introduced.) Jimbobjoe 21:24, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with your idea. What do you propose? How about..."The term "statutory rape" is a specific legal term and doesn't always refer to any violation of the age of consent. See statutory rape for usage conditions." ? Jimbobjoe 03:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


(quote)I guess the harsh fact is that it is considered rape because the minor is not able _under law_ to give consent.(endquote)

That is not technically true. The state is recognizing that the minor has some ability to grant consent, but has chosen to make the act illegal anyway.

Here in my Ohio, sexual conduct with a 12 year old is statutory rape. A 12 year old is completely unable to grant consent under any situation, even with another minor (Ohio Revised Code 2907.02)

Sexual conduct with a 15 year old, by an adult, is unlawful sexual conduct with a minor. (Ohio Revised Code 2907.04) This charge recognizes the fact that the 15 year old is capable of giving consent, but the legislature has decided to illegally prohibit the act for reasons unrelated to the consent.

After all, if the 15 year old was forceable raped, the person would be charged with a standard rape chage. Only with the 12 year old is consent completely unrecognized, so the charge is the same. With the 15 year old, consent is "possible" and a lesser charge is levied. Jimbobjoe 12:37, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

After thinking a bit, I see that my last post opens a bit of a can of worms...but for purposes of accuracy, it's one I propose we follow. Wee! Jimbobjoe 18:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

(quote)Yes in some regions the law gives different terminology for different situations. (endquote)

I'll have to look at the chart of violations again...but I don't believe there is a single US state that has doesn't have a tiered statutory rape with lesser unlawful conduct with minor structure/penalties. (Canada, I think, does, but it retains a "more traditional" AOC.)

There's a colloquial usage of "statutory rape" which people use to refer to any violation of the AOC, and a legal concept of "statutory rape" which, today, refers to more severe violations of the AOC. I guess my goal is pointing out that there are two uses, which aren't necessarily interchangeable--if someone thinks the definition of "statutory rape" is a charge brought on by sexual conduct with someone under an AOC, that is equivalent to "rape" in penalties and severity, then they are more likely to be wrong than right.

If you follow my thinking, then the definition for AOC is actually a bit more complex than what I thought just 3 days ago. As it stands, AOC is being defined under the traditional concept before the tiering existed.

Some wording for the portion we're working on....

a.) there's a colloquial definition of "statutory rape" that is used by people to mean any possible charge connected with violation of a jurisdiction's AOC, and a legal concept of "statutory rape" which does not necessarily cover all violations of the AOC

or

b.) While the term "statutory rape" is often colloquially applied to all violations of the age of consent, statutory rape is a precise legal concept which is applicable only under certain, severe violations of age of consent laws. (See statutory rape for more information.)

a.) is a little less pointofviewy--in that it recognizes the usage of the term, whereas b.) is a bit more oriented toward pointing out such usage is wrong.

I see you haven't made any changes recently...was curious to see where your thoughts were.

I note that you removed my terminology for "active" and "passive" AOC. I suspect your reasoining is that the terminology is not used by anyone else, though I thought they were good terms for describing a cumbersome concept. In any case, Ellen Goodman, in her article for the Boston Globe ("When teen sex education goes too far"dated 2/24/06 says that "Kansas is one of 12 states in which underage sex -- under 16 in this case -- is a crime even when it involves teenage peers." So therefore there are 12 US states which have a "passive" AOC, and that's worth including. -- Jimbobjoe?

I'm not sure I understand the difference between this active/passive dichotomy to which you're speaking. I'm trying to keep the article fairly straighforward. The main body of the article should (IMO) cover the view of the various laws around the world. Most laws draw a line somewhere, some might have a grey line which allows certain teen with teen activities, others do not. Could you explain again this active/pasive idea? I've been a bit pinned down lately with other things I have to do. But I'm in the middle of a proposed edit for the whole page as I'm trying to get people to discuss on the talk page. Perhaps this discusion point can be part of the new page. -- Monotonehell 16:25, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Well hello there again. I hope you're doing well...I've been a bit busy myself.
The concept of "active" versus "passive" is this: a passive "AOC" is a law only regulating sexual conduct by an adult with a minor. It doesn't actually say anything about what the minor can do with another minor. (So in a state with a passive AOC of 16, a sexual relationship between two 15 year olds is not illegal.) An active "AOC" says an individual can't engage in sex at all until they reach that particular age. (A state with an active AOC of 16 can prosecute two 15 year olds having a sexual relationship.) This distinction appears important enough to me to include.
I've been troubled in recent times by the confusion and mess that this topic brings on. The fact that the concept of AOC is used improperly (since in most instances it's referring to an age that's higher than the real statutory AOC, but implies a new concept) needs to address, imho, somehow.
If I had my way, I'd add new concepts (of course wikipedia isn't the place for this sorta thing, but maybe you can ingest it in and see where you can take it.)
AOC used to accurately refer to the age of consent, the age at which an individual can grant consent to sex (anything before the old AOC is statutory rape.) Jurisdictions added a second age on top of that--creating a range in between where a minor can grant consent to sex, but where the act of sex with that minor is still illegal, but not rape because consent is recognized. Then jurisdictions added a third age which is where an adult in authority of the minor may not have sex with that minor, though they could if the adult weren't in some position of charge. (Once again, consent is recognized.)
I'd called the original the AOC, the second the ASM (age of sexual majority) and the third the ASE (age of sexual empowerment.) Until I write an article on the topic and get it published somewhere respectable, I guess my nifty terminology is off limits for wikipedia. Nevertheless, it might be useful to you in putting something together. -- 12:37, 20 March 2006 Jimbobjoe
Ah now that first paragraph explains it better. Now I understand what you mean. Perhaps you can reword that into several clear paragraphs and add that to the article? -- Monotonehell 12:30, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AmigaOS

Okay, I stand corrected on usage of "wastebasket" in MacOS not being a UK thing (I'm from the UK, by the way, so wasn't trying to be American-centric). I don't mind adding in examples other than the Recycle Bin such as Wastebasket, if you want to put that back. The important thing I think is that "Trashcan" is actually the Amiga name for it (even if it's used elsewhere), though confusingly the icon type is "Garbage", plus sticking a link to Recycle Bin should hopefully explain it best. Mdwh 16:02, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Age of Consent references

Hi, I've added the references to the Age of Consent article about the argentine law. They're in Spanish, anyway. Hope that helps. Cheers. --Ojota 06:07, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] March 2006

[edit] Age of Consent

Hi there, I now see what the sentence "some jurisdictions forbid sexual activity outside of legal marriage completely" was meant for, but it could benefit from a little rephrasing -- as it stands now, the relation to the article's focus ("This article refers specifically to the AoC Laws regulating sexual acts") is not very clear. I humbly propose the following: "in some jurisdictions where the AoC is above the marriageable age, sexual activity outside of legal marriage can be completely forbidden". This would limit it to the topic at hand rather than sounding like a general prohibition of adultery. How does that sound? JREL 16:54, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Well that wouldn't work either lol - There are some jurisdictions where sex outside marriage is completely forbidden (I'm thinking Saudi Arabia and possibly Malaysia for Muslims but I'd have to check that). The purpose of that paragraph is to introduce what is discussed in the entire article. Also bear in mind that the sections below are to be expanded as time goes on. I admit the paragraph is in my usual non nonsence style so I'm open to edits (as long as they don't change the meaning and purpose of the intro). I guess I also have a bit of an ownership issue since I wrote it. You dont have to be humble at all! I'm not the boss, this is WP after all. Any more suggestions of what to do? --Monotonehell 17:44, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Well no actually -- not that I feel very strongly about it :-) I guess the Marriage section explains it quite well now anyhow. JREL 21:46, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] April 2006

[edit] Concent concent

The article is Age of concent with a redirect from Age of Concent. I just wanted to help a bit with your "quixotic crusade".  ;-) hydnjo talk 18:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

PEDANT! Shush you - pedantism is my gig - lol! --Monotonehell 20:48, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Sadly, I've moved beyond that to pedagogue. hydnjo talk 03:46, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
That's fine we all need correction sometimes (my spelling borders on the dyslexic at times). Just as long as you don't move through pedagogue to pedaphile (sic). No wait... strike that. ;) --Monotonehell 09:01, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] in the news - picture highlight

I copied this to proposals as it fell into MainPage archives. --Quiddity 21:11, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Righto - I'll keep an eye on it thanks. --Monotonehell 09:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, not much happened there! I copied it to Village pump (technical) to see if some smart techie takes a liking and implements it. --Quiddity 18:33, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Heh, no not much action, let's see what happens there. --Monotonehell 12:12, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Turkish literature's introduction

If you don't mind my asking, why is the introduction so vehemently hated? —Saposcat 07:35, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Haha I was being a little sarcastic - it was attacked twice on the mainpage talk page (A little harshly in my opinion). --Monotonehell 07:37, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I just found that now. The quibble about having the subject in a "natural place" and whatnot does indeed lead to awkward phrasing, though I don't think that this particular sentence was exceptionally awkward (these are all just stylistic tastes anyhow). And the misinterpretation of the word "normative" was off-base as well, since it does not in any way mean "current" in the opening sentence (as the phrase "such as" reveals). Oh well, I changed it back anyway. Perhaps I'll work on it a bit more. Thanks for replying. —Saposcat 07:44, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Turkish literature

It seems you've been reverted... Perhaps I'll try to edit the intro. Marskell 07:51, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

First check the comment to your comment on the Main Page's talk, if you care to. —Saposcat 08:01, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] external link spam

We must fight the good fight and always remove linkspam on sight. If it keeps getting added, then we must keep removing it. If we relent then the spammers win! In some cases I've found it helpful to insert a hidden comment in the External links section, asking people to see the Talk page before inserting any further external links, and then explaining on the Talk page why a particular link or series of links don't belong. I'll keep on eye on the aoc page for a while (at least) and remove that link if i see it re-added. --AbsolutDan (talk) 12:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] May and June 2006

[edit] Age of consent in Africa

I have restored Age of consent in Africa per your request, since it seems in keeping with the rest of the Age of consent pages. The later version (which was visible when the page was tagged, and ultimately speedy deleted) had been vandalised, so I have left a few edits deleted. Hope this helps └UkPaolo/talk┐ 11:11, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Map

As you seem to be the "authority" on the age of consent wikipedia page, I wanted to contact you because I'm about to contribute to it. I saw the "map" in particular and realised it was not extremely clear nor complete so I decided to make a new one from scratch. I uploaded it on the wikimedia commons website. You can find it here : http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Age_of_Consent.png
I'd like to have your opinion on it before I edit the age of consent page and include it. Thanks in advance :) Thiste 15:35, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

LOL! Authority? Maybe the LOUDEST and most annoying. ;) Your map is very good, however the reason there is so much grey on the current map is due to the the Wikipedia policy WP:V that all information must be verifiable. The previous version of the map had a lot less grey areas as it was based on the now defunct (and wrong) ageofconsent.com site. Other sites like avert.org have a more up to date listing BUT we here are ruled by the verify policy and so the map is only updated as the information comes in. That information is on the subpages;
Africa Asia Australia and Pacific Region Europe North America South America
The map is a little behind the current subpages as we like to wait a bit for the info to be disputed and so on. Sorry you did all that work already! (I just added a note to the file's page saying similar) Cheers --Monotonehell 05:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


Well the thing is I don't think it's very satisfying that the map is so empty, so grey... :) Look what I found, a website promoting gay rights in Africa, that lists all african countries and their laws on age of consent & homosexuality. It's not complete but pretty good nonetheless. They cite the articles from each country's penal code. I hope this source is good enough to be included in the age of consent article & thus in the map ?
Go there : http://www.mask.org.za/index.php?page=africabycountry
I'll try to find other sources so we can soon have a more satisfying & complete article & map. That would be cool Thiste 14:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
[UPDATE] : I just found the interpol website, didn't see it was already on the wikipedia article. What makes the data over there not reliable ?
Continuing the search. Thiste 14:39, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
[UPDATE2] : found this : http://www.ilga.info/Information/Legal_survey/ilga_world_legal_survey%20introduction.htm
It's already cited as reference on the wikipedia article on Homosexuality_laws_of_the_world. Seems to have some info that interests us in it. Thiste 15:27, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Yup I'm aware of those sites (I cheated a bit and pinched one entry from the Africa gay rights site just to put SOMETHING on the Age of consent in Africa page so people would stop deleteing it). The problem is none of those sites are authoritive. We need to go to the actual legislation or peer reviewed texts to get verifiable information. Have a look at the Age of consent in Australia page and see how each entry points to the appropriate article in the legislation. Sites such as austlii.edu.au have authoritive info. Actual academic text books that discuss said legislation would also be good.
The Interpol site was found to be out of date on a number of matters a while ago (see the talk page for AoC). We can't cite non-authoritive websites. This usually means that if it doesn't end in .edu.* or isn't an official govt website of that country it's not good enough.
I really do like your map as it covers the States of the US and Australia, so it would be great if we can use it. --Monotonehell 06:48, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
LOL just another point to illustrate how web sites are generally not good sources, under Wikipedia's policy, Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source. Also university students are not allowed to use it in their work. --Monotonehell 06:52, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
First I want to stress that my map has been put on the age of consent article, but it is NOT my doing. Now onto your post. Well I understand how you find my map interesting with the US states & all, I also understand your wanting to be encyclopedic. And that's the problem actually, because if I refer to the subpages to fill the map it leaves only 8 US states and to add to that, the subpage is even "subject to dispute". Thus all that great work you praise me for would be lost.
I'd like to find a solution in accordance with your point of view but I guess I'll wait for your exams to be over :)
I must say tho that IMHO if an age is recognized on at least two of the sources we have, it should be enough for us to trust it. Just my point of view though. I think I'm gonna redo 2 maps maybe (if I have the patience) : one with every source I can find (the most complete map possible), and another one with the most care possible taken (the "only-subpages" one).Thiste 19:48, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The N.America page was put on dispute by someone who's never really made a case for dispute, whose dispute was over the naming of the page anyway, and who has not taken the dispute down. So who knows.
The wanting to be encyclopedic isn't mine, it's a WP policy. The older version of the stateless map did have many more countries filled in, the newer version has them greyed out where they are not verified properly. I'd say that if you want a source that's somewhat reliable, we could go with avert.org. Even though they have had some mistakes all it takes is someone to send them an email with the appropriate legislation and they will fix it. I've actually sent them 3 emails about their chart. I'd say it's fine to leave your map up on the page since someone went ahead and stuck it there already. But it would be great if you would improve on its accuracy (where did you get the info from again?). Also a friend of mine has suggested that you pick some more contrasting colours, I'm unsure if it's just her monitor but she's told me that some of the yellow/green colours are too close in value. --Monotonehell 05:42, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Well my primary source of info was from advert.org actually, mixed with the previous wikipedia map (which info I prefered over advert.org's). So that should suit our needs for the moment. As I said, I was about to remake the map actually, and with a better color palette (it was my first map after all :p). So that I'll do.
Not this next week I'm afraid though. This time I'm the one not available for the next few days. I'm going on holidays for the week, so I'll only be back after may, 27th :) Thiste 00:51, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
PS: You can go check there http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Life_Expectancy.png , I'll probably use a palette similar to the one on this other map of mine. Looks more professional imho :)
I haven't compared everything we've learned to avert's data but when I see a discrepency I've been sending them an email, so they might be mostly okay. Have fun on holiday! --Monotonehell 07:36, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
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