Talk:Montezuma

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[edit] Discussion of spelling of Moctezuma

Montezuma is an older spelling of the name now more correctly spelled Moctezuma (or hypercorrectly as Motecuhzoma).

J. Richard Andrew's Introduction to Classical Nahuatl says that the name is pronounced /moteːkʷsoːma/. Although he prefers the spelling Moteuczoma, Motecuhzoma is not an incorrect way of representing the same phonemes, and Moctezuma is just wrong. Nahuatl doesn't have a /u/. --Ptcamn 08:56, 27 December 2005 (UTC)



[edit] Summary of debate for RFC voters

We are trying to determine what is the preferred spelling of the name of two Aztec emperors.

Montezuma is an archaic Europeanized spelling of the name of two Aztec emperors. The spelling Moctezuma is widely preferred in Mexico. However, a Google search found 5,360,000 entries for Montezuma and 1,170,000 for Moctezuma. Scholars are favoring Moteuczoma or Motecuhzoma as being closest to the Nahuatl pronunciation of the name.

Please vote for one of these options at the bottom of this Talk page

Ptcamn's comment above notwithstanding, Moctezuma is the most widely used spelling on the following pages

Aztec

Hernan Cortes

Mexico

History of Mexico

Spanish Conquest of Mexico

Tenochtitlan

Siege of Tenochtitlan

We are trying to arrive at a common spelling to propagate across all these articles. One proposal is to change everything to Montezuma. Another is to leave it at Moctezuma. Nowhere is Moteuczoma used. Motecuhzoma is a rare spelling in Wikipedia. In fact, I just changed an instance of it to Moctezuma.

Wikipedia style standards state that the Anglicized/Romanized spelling should be used which would suggest that we use Montezuma. However, Moctezuma seems to be the prevailing spelling in Wikipedia. IMO, we should determine what the preferred spelling is in scholarly articles and use that.

Richard 20:46, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


Here is a discussion that was on the Talk:Hernan Cortes talk page that I have moved here.

Here is a discussion that started on the Hernan Cortes page.


I think Montezuma is more common. OTOH, the article about him is under Moctezuma II. Whichever we choose it has to be the same name throughout the article (even throughout Wikipedia). I would go for Moctezuma as the article on him says this is preferred. Any comments? Piet 09:35, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, mea culpa. I was thinking about this inconsistency last night as I was putting stuff in. I think we should use Moctezuma since it is the commonly used rendition of the Aztec name although I have seen other spellings. Montezuma is clearly a Europeanized version of the name. If you have the time and energy to make this consistent, I would much appreciate it. Richard 21:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

But do you disagree then with the Moctezuma II article claiming that Moctezuma is the preferred spelling? If so, we should start a discussion on that page. We can't use Montezuma here and then redirect it to Moctezuma. In fact, I am going to leave a note right now. Piet 09:05, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree only Montezuma and Moctezuma are possibilities, Moteuczoma I have never heard of so I don't think it is a common name. As for Moctezuma being used more often (than Montezuma) in Wikipedia, this is not a good reference because most of the work on these pages has been done by just a few people. We need more opinions on this. For what it's worth, here's the eternal google match-up: 5.360.000 for Montezuma and 1.170.000 for Moctezuma. I think we should organize a vote and post something somewhere to ask people's opinions, maybe a Wikipedia:Request for Comment. Piet 21:05, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

The thing is, as this disambig page makes clear, these names are used with different spellings for different things. The correct (or as someone above said, "hypercorrect") name of the two Emperors in Nahuatl is Motecuzoma, but this has become Moctezuma for most purposes in Mexico. The name of the mythological character of the Southwest US is definitely Montezuma, and many Americans in the 1850s assumed that this was some corruption of the Emperors' name, but I'm not so sure it's that clear cut. At any rate, quite possibly because of the renown of the myth in the 1850's , the form Montezuma became far more common in the US, even when speaking of the Emperors Moctezuma, as evidenced by the spelling of numerous counties all over the US and of course the "Marine fight song"... I wouldn't recommend moving any of the articles from where they stand now: Emperors Moctezuma I and II should stay at Moctezuma, Montezuma (mythology) should stay there, and this disambig is also in the right place to try to explain the whole situation... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 21:19, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
The above informaton is very helpful but, I beg to differ, the disambig page does not make it clear. I would put almost all of the above info in the disambig page.
However, we're not so much trying to move the Moctezuma and Montezuma articles as we are trying to decide what spelling to use in the above referenced Wikipedia articles. Codex Sinaiticus seems to think we should use Moctezuma because that's what's used in Mexico despite the fact that it is incorrect because there is no /u/ in Nahuatl. Pietdesomeres thinks we should use Montezuma because that is the Europeanized spelling.
Sheesh. I still like Moctezuma but I was going to say that I would vote for Moteuczoma to be in line with J. Richard Andrews (see top of page). I think Montezuma is out as being an archaic Europeanization. Despite my preference for Moctezuma, it appears the choice should be between Motecuhzoma and Moteuczoma.
I do think this should be put to a vote via an appropriate mechanism such as Wiki Request for Comment. If you have the energy to create one, please do so. I don't know how to do it so I would have to research the mechanism first.

Richard 21:29, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arguments for Moctezuma

If you ever said "Montezuma" in Mexico, inmediately you would be corrected  :) ... In Mexico the official spelling is Moctezuma, while Montezuma is perceived as a corruption and a case of colonialism... (see the article of Mexico about the "Mejico" spelling, there is a lot of nationalism involved ). Moteuczoma, Motecuzoma, and motehcuzoma are forms that try to respect the original nahuatl pronunciation,(although the "u" is barelly audible, al least the spaniards did not perceive it...) they are comon in manuscript written by aztecs and pestizos after the conquest, and recently are being promoted again as being more respectfull bewtween schollars.. Nanahuatzin 21:37, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

(...) in the 1850s, the form Montezuma "became more common in the US, even when speaking of the Emperors Moctezuma"... Using "Montezuma" for the Emperors is still a gross and erroneous misnomer, that seems to arise from confusion with the (possibly unrelated) deity by that name... (some people) have taken my words as an argument for moving the Emperors' pages, when I was making the exact opposite argument, for keeping their pages at "Moctezuma" and someone else then even assured me that nobody was even suggesting that the page be moved. Now (...), it appears that there really is a movement afoot to move the pages to a different title after all, so again, I will say I am against that. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 13:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


Even educated people or anyone who has ever cracked open a book on the subject in the US uses "Moctezuma"... We don't go with popular misnomers because they are more common... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:04, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Moctezuma is the more common used in the wikipedia, while Montezuma may be a more popular use, Moctezuma is the preferred spelling in scholarly articles. Nanahuatzin 15:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for comments, I'll go along with Moctezuma. I think Montezuma support is getting weak but let's organize it into a vote section anyway for clarity. I've put Bridesmill there since his comment looked like a vote, the rest can put their own name in the appropriate section. Piet 18:04, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arguments for Montezuma

I can understand that Moctezuma is the correct spelling in Mexico, but that does not matter for the English wikipedia. All of the above can be mentioned in the relevant articles, but the name we have to use is the most common name in the English language. Please read the rationale on Wikipedia:Use English and Wikipedia:Use common names. User:Codex Sinaiticus says Montezuma is used even when speaking of the Emperors Moctezuma. I think this means it is the "common usage" for the name of the emperors, so the articles should be moved. Btw, if I remember well the Age of Empires Aztec campaign uses "Montezuma". Anyway, I don't think we can decide on our own; I will organize a vote one of these days. Piet 07:19, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I saw that this case was up for debate on the RfC. IMO Montezuma is the form that is most common in English. I have basically always heard of Montezuma. What seems to be trouble is what is more politically correct, is that true? This is difficult to judge, because we need to balance between two cases here. Also see the case of Tiwanaku, which I thought was always "Tihuanaco", maybe this can help... Gryffindor 09:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


But, "more common in the US" is a very big argument for moving the pages to Montezuma! I don't see how you don't accept this. I think most Americans – and probably most people in the English speaking world – call this emperor Montezuma, so why would the page not belong under Montezuma? If you read Wikipedia:use English and Wikipedia:Use common names, the case seems clear to me. Most users looking for information will look for Montezuma, right? So that is where the article belongs. I also think if we vote, that we should most of all look for English speaking voters (I don't intend to vote). Piet 14:01, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Moctezuma votes

  1. Moctezuma, but needs to be redirect through Montezuma, and it wouldn't hurt to mention Montezuma as a former Anglo spelling at least once in each affected article. 'Standard' might still imply Montezuma (which outnumbers Moctezuma 5:1 on google, though not in the scholarly press), but the latter is blatantly rapidly becoming the standard, if it isn't changed now it will be in the near future.Bridesmill 16:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
  2. Moctezuma, Names change over time, even those used by Anglophones. Peking is now Beijing, Ceylon is now Sri Lanka and Burma is now Myanmar. Mao Tse-tung is now Mao Zedong. Montezuma is very likely being substituted by Moctezuma. The pace of change is probably slower because the name is not as widely used as the names mentioned above. I would go for Moctezuma. (NB: It's still called Peking Duck, though.) Richard 18:24, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
  3. Moctezuma I and II for the two Emperors; Montezuma for things named Montezuma. I have given my reasons at length already above, if anyone wants to trawl through the discussion! Unfortunately, someone has moved my responses out from under the paragraph it was responding to, so that it no longer makes sense, and this should never be done under any circumstances... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 18:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
  4. I prefer Moctezuma. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 20:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
  5. Moctezuma. This spelling is being used in textbooks from the freshman level of college onwards in the United States, and is creeping into high school texts as the schools can afford to buy new books. -Diabolic 13:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I have to qualify my vote to agree with Codex - when discussing the person - Moctezuma. When discussing things named after 'Montezuma', well, Montezuma - same as for Peking Duck and Chicken Bombay. Oo,chuckle - I smell a listcruft article - Things named after the old names of places Bridesmill 17:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

  1. Moctezuma. For the Aztec names. Montezuma for "things" called Montezuma. Nanahuatzin 03:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Montezuma votes

  1. Maybe in 20 years "Moctezuma" will be more popular in English (I won't predict the future here), but certainly "Montezuma" is far more used today. We have to remember that Wikipedia is written for lay English speakers, not Mexican Spanish speakers, and certainly not scholars. Our primary job here is to educate persons who have only heard of "the halls of Montezuma".--Pharos 03:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
  2. Per Wikipedia:Use English, but the article should certainly discuss how the lang./spelling issue contributes to his overall image, the Mexican nationalism as was mentioned, etc. It's all valuable information, but as this is the English Wikipedia, the most common English spelling should be used for the title. -Fsotrain09 05:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
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