Talk:Montenegrin language/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 Neutrality 2 UNUDHR 3 New phonemes 4 Heavy vandalism by Ragusan 5 Move 6 Edits by Nikola Smolenski 7 Move vote 8 Google search 9 Montenegrin language in Kosovo 10 I CANT BELIEVE 11 Indonesian comparison 12 Not a language 13 The language

Neutrality

The first line says that the neutrality of this article is disputed and we should see its talk page, but the talk page is empty. What exactly is disputed and what are the arguments of both sides? --romanm (talk) 22:47, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

While I am mostly removed from Balkan nationalistic issues on Wikipedia, it would seem to me that Nikola Smolenski is a Serbian nationalist troll here on Wikipedia, going to every single page relating to the Balkans and pushing a Serbian nationalist POV (not that we don't have other POV problems in the area...),

Could you substantiate this claim? Nikola 08:32, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

your contribs are evidence enough. Just go through a few pages...

Well, I reviewed most of Nikola's recent edits, and the great majority of them seem quite reasonable. You are quite free to disagree with him (as I do at times). But characterizing him as a "nationalist troll" is not helpful and not warranted. Jonathunder 21:46, 2004 Nov 26 (UTC)

including on such pages as this which should probably be dealt with by people who actually know something about Montenegrin rather than Serbians who want this page to say "Montenegrin is not a language" and discount the claims of those who would say it is a language (I would say that Montenegrin is an independent language just as much as Bosnian, Serbian, and Croatian are,

Could you substantiate this claim? Nikola 08:32, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What claim? Basically everything I said in that part of the message was a judgement or opinion on my part, not a factual claim.

Well then, could you substantiate your judgment or opinion that Montenegrin is an independent language just as much as Bosnian, Serbian, and Croatian are? Nikola 12:24, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

but I am not ready to make a judgement on any of THEIR claims to being independent languages because I know my opinion will get me hammered on no matter what it is). Basically, an anonymous user as well as a couple of logged-in users have been making helpful edits to this page, which Nikola continually reverts.

No, this is not true. Since 16th October I see no edits except reversions. The version to which I am reverting was also reverted to by Joy, who has apparently since gave up. Nikola 08:32, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps you should check diffs before reverting? It seems that it's no longer... well, what Joy said.

Well, no. People who engage in revert wars almost always revert to the same version, so I think that I am not obliged to check each and every diff only because of the remote possibility that one of them was different. Besides, I am reviewing the diffs now and differences are quite small and "useful facts" not too useful and not too facts. Nikola 12:24, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yeah. However, the anonymous user from 21x.y.z.w, who sometimes logs in as User:Montenegro, also appears to have amended his version since to not be blatant censoring and instead add some useful factoids, and we should try to integrate it, not just revert it. I haven't had time to look at it yet, but I will eventually. --Joy [shallot] 11:42, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If he genuinely has a problem with this page the way Montenegrins are trying to make it, perhaps he should duke it out with them in a flamewar on the talkpage rather than a revert war on the article itself? (note, I did not add the notice) --Node 18:01, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The link to Moldovan is more of a 'compare' rather than 'see also', because Moldovan is to Romanian what Montenegrin is to Serbian, I guess. --Joy [shallot] 23:20, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'll rename the section to "Related articles". Nikola 12:24, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

UNUDHR

I'd be interested in knowing how much the UNUDHR for Montenegrin would differ from the Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian entries... Would it be identical to the Serbian (in Latin) or would there be other differences? http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/navigate/alpha.htm FrancisTyers 22:46, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As Montenegrin is not a standard language, there is no way to tell if a text in Montenegrin or not. The declaration as spoken by someone from Montenegro would be practically the same as spoken by any other Serbian Ijekavian speaker. Nikola 21:29, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

That's what I figured, and now from a Montenegrin nationalist? ;) - FrancisTyers 14:55, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Very funny. Nikola 13:24, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that this is the same bullshit as the Moldovan language. There is a great trend in South Eastern Europe these days that every single little province comes up with its own language.

There is no Montenegrin language, there is no Bosniak language, no Croat language, no Macedonian language just like there is no Moldovan language.

All these countries have invented their own languages for obvious political reasons. I suspect Montenegrin leaders are so desperate to declare independence that they would even assert that they speak a "Montenegrin" language in order to seem different from the Serbs. Good luck with the NPOV.Duca 01:51, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Whilst I may agree with you, I'd have to point out that there are Bosnian/Croatian/Macedonian languages, no matter how "artificial" they are. The history behind "Macedonian" is actually rather interesting. :) - FrancisTyers

I know all about the "Macedonian" language. Same thing as "Moldovan" language. Duca 22:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I just realised something.

There is no Montenegrin language, there is no Bosniak language, no Croat language, no Macedonian language just like there is no Moldovan language.

Surely if this is the case there is no Serbian language? ;) Just a South Slavic dialect continuum. - FrancisTyers 18:46, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I must say I do not understand all these discussions about Moldovan, Montenegrin, etc, and they seem to be a complete waste of time. The differences between the languages spoken in Argentina and in Mexico are certainly more significant than between those spoken in Serbia and Montenegro, but very few people would think of calling them "Argentinian" or "Mexican"; they call it "Spanish" (or sometimes "Castilian"). That does not mean that the people of Montenegro cannot form a separate country, just as so many others that share a common language. Even in Europe we have Germany and Austria! Tsf 13:35, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

New phonemes

So, are there minimal pairs and what are they? Nikola 09:09, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

In Montenegrin dialects, they are. Also, Trubeckoi-Jakobson theory should not be read literally. So: --millosh (talk (sr:)) 10:49, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

• <some alophone><something else> -> means something;
• <some other alophone><something else> -> means nothing;

Are enough to have new phoneme. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 10:49, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

In other words, if çutra is tomorrow (sutra) in some dialect and sutra means nothing, then ç is phoneme. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 10:49, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Who says that? Article on minimal pairs disagrees and so do I. Different speakers of the same dialect, even from the same family, might say the word as "śutra", "sjutra", "sutra" or even "šutra"; these are different phones, but the same phoneme. Not to mention that, if this would be taken as criteria, every language would have almost every phoneme: for example, Serbian would have dz which could be heard, for example, in "predznak", because "preznak" means nothing. Nikola 21:16, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

If someone standardize some language where it is correct to say çutra and sutra means nothing, then this doesn't have any relation to pronounce of different speakers of the same dialect. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 12:00, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

It is impossible to standardise a language on a set of phonemes if the language doesn't have that set of phonemes. One may pretend to do so, but one cannot actually do so. Not to mention that no one even pretends. Nikola 14:41, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

And about minimal pairs: If you say so, then phonemes "f" and "h" (or phonemes "u" and "dž") are not different phonemes in Serbian language because there are no words with meaning where they make opposition. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 12:00, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Of course there are? Fata/vata, hod/god, uvo/ovo, džak/čak on the top of my head. Nikola 14:41, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Please, show me opposition between 'f' and 'h' as well as between 'u' and 'dž' and don't behave like a vandal. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 16:35, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

You are insisting on 'f' and 'h' because you probably know that 'h' can't be found in many Serbian dialects, and 'f' is found only in some of them. So you know that it would be very hard (or even impossible) to make opposition between them. How can you make opposition between 'u' and 'dž'? 'U' is a vowel, and 'dž' is a consonant! That's just like you ask someone to show you opposition between 'e' and 'j' in English, but in Serbian it is even more conflex, because two vowels one next to another are found in like 2% of all words. You are very clever, aren't you? :) --Djordje D. Bozovic 23:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

However, I have managed to found minimal pairs for f and h and for u and dž which will doubtless give me entrance into the history of Serbian linguistics ;) Nikola 22:19, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that you have behaved like a vandal when you changed an article to your liking. Reverted! --RockyMM 01:20, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Please, look through history of this article. There were {{expert}} template. I am an expert in that field (Shtokavian dialect and Shtokavian based standards). It seems that I have to spend a lot of time to explain some basic linguistic things to the people who don't know anything about linguistics as well as don't make differences between dialects and standard languages... So, do what do you want. I don't want to waste time with you. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 13:37, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

If you look carefully at article history, you will see that it was me who had put {{expert}} template on the article. When you made edits to this article you never had introduced yourself as an expert, an basically what you did was that you made this article a little more NPOV and changed the order of the paragraphs. Not much of an expert needed to do that. To my knowledge 'Montenegrin language' is still not standardized and so far for all people who speak with Montenegrin dialect çutra and sjutra mean the same thing. That is until the standardization takes place by some appointed authority. And you are not wasting your time with me. You are trying to make this wikipedia article better. I feel that for a laic like me, your argument pro phonemes is not strong enough. But, it would be fair when actual standardization takes place that this paragraph should be deleted.

And another thing - it is very difficult to differentiate a dialect and a language with 'Montenegrin language' topic, because more than anything this is a political issue. Maybe the difference should be more elaborated in the article so that another confusion could be avoided?

And yet another thing - it seams to me that that paragraph with disputed sentence now looks awkward, but until someone, or you millos, make enough of an argument for that disputed sentence to be deleted. --RockyMM 22:48, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Put the tags in the article again and wait for someone else. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 12:45, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe I will, but now I'm thinking that what this article needs more is a line or two about differences between a dialect and language. But for now I will not touch this sentence, at least until somebody else complains about it.--RockyMM 22:29, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't see how have I behaved like a vandal. You have deleted a sentence from the article. I started discussion about it. After you, in my opinion, haven't provided sufficient reason for its deletion, I have returned it.

From what I know, for a phoneme to be distinguished, it doesn't need to form a minimal pair with every other phoneme, just with some; or perhaps I can ask you to show me the minimal pair for ś and a, b, v, g, d, etc? Anyway, phonemes you have asked about do have minimal pairs: frka/hrka (and cognates) and, lo, u/dž (slang for "džabe").

Yes, 'dz' is phoneme in Serbian language which is not classified. Phonemes 'lj' and 'nj' were made in the similar process as contemporary 'dz' in Serbian. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 12:00, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

No, 'dz' is a phone and not a phoneme. Nikola 14:41, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

If you take "predznak" as an example of a phoneme, you are wrong because word "predznak" iz composed of two word "pred" and "znak". It would be a phoneme if the word itself is not composed of two words. One cannot state that two letters that happen to stand next to each other form a phoneme. What's also important for a phone to "become" a phoneme is when a speaker pronounces certain phone he can abstract such phone as a phoneme, meaning he can abstract a phone as a separate etnity, different than other etnities that "are" phonemes. --RockyMM 01:20, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

That's what I said, the sound could be uttered by some people who say the word, but isn't a phoneme. Nikola 23:31, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

---

I have asked at Talk:Minimal pair#Introduction and, as I said, another user confirmed me that minimal pair can exist only between two words, and not between a word and a non-word. So, I will remove dispute notice from the article. Nikola 16:20, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

So, find the oppositions between 'a' and 'dž' in Serbian. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 18:40, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, 'a' and 'dž', of course. Nikola 08:15, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Hehehe. Even 'dz' is not inside of literary language, OK. But, try also with 'u' and 'j', 'f' and 'h' as well as with 'dž' and 'j' etc. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 18:08, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

As I see where this is leading, here is a list of minimal pairs of dž and all other Serbian phonemes. Enjoy! :)

• A: a/dž
• B: buba/budža
• V: buva/budža
• G: gak/džak
• D: Buda/budža
• Đ: đak/džak
• E: e/dž
• Ž: žaba/džaba
• Z: za/dža
• I: i/dž
• J: baja/badža
• K: buka/budža
• L: lak/džak
• LJ: Ljuba/džuba
• M: mak/džak
• N: buna/budža
• NJ: banja/badža
• O: o/dž
• P: pak/džak
• R: rak/džak
• S: sa/dža
• T: bata/badža
• Ć: baća/badža
• U: u/dž
• F: fa/dža
• H: ha/dža
• C: cep/džep
• Č: čep/džep
• DŽ: n/a
• Š: šamija/džamija

As for other ones, there are ua/ja and, as I said before, frka/hrka.

I, however, completely fail to see how is this of any relevance to minimal pairs of completely unrelated phones in Montenegro. Nikola 10:23, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Grat work, but try to do it with other phonemes, too ;) (BTW, some of the cases are not good enough because (at least ;) ) in the case of consonant-consonant opposition you should keep in mind accents, too.) --millosh (talk (sr:)) 01:30, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

BTW, again, if you find other combinations, it would be a good linguistic work and maybe I would start to trust to you that you are a great linguist ;) --millosh (talk (sr:)) 01:30, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Heavy vandalism by Ragusan

Point per point:

• The tone of the latest additions by Ragusan is all but encyclopediaic. It certainly is not neutral.
• "Brief" historical introduction is a more of--RockyMM 22:10, 24 October 2005 (UTC) an introduction to name Montenegro as territorial unit and is more suitable to an article about Montenegro, and has no place in a language article.
• The examples of using the letter "j" on language is totally unneeded and even more than that, confusing. Probably only a native speaker can get a grasp of what the author wanted to say.
• Other than the points above, the history of Ragusan's works show his tendency for vandalisms and putting unproven information to articles.--RockyMM 18:55, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

For User:Node_ue: There really is not need for big linguistic discussion about pronouncing letter "j" in Montenegrin variant of language. This article should be kept just for encyclopedic purpose and at encyclopedic level, not on higher level so that a native speaker is needed or linguistic expert to understand it.

And why should we exclude this information? You assert that it will only be useful to a native speaker or linguist... I disagree. --Node

On the other thing, I really like version by DCabrilo (Bolikita rulez :)) much more than this latest revision. But I'll let someone else revert it, I don't feel like doing this on my own.

Move

I am starting a poll here to move the page to Montenegrin (linguistics), since it isn't really a language, more like a dialect. HolyRomanEmperor 23:07, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't agree with move because Montenegrin is the language in political sense (as well as other Shtokavian based languages). So, then we should move Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian and Serbo-Croatian into "(linguistics)" articles. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 05:07, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

The reason that I stated that is that Montenegrin language does not really exist. Croatian and Bosnian are internationally accepted. Britannica has no mention of the Montenegrin language, and it says that they actually speak Serbian in there. HolyRomanEmperor 21:28, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

The (linguistics) should be used to describe that the language is sporadic. It does not exist as an independant language. HolyRomanEmperor 21:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Montenegrin language exists in political sense. Around 20% of inhabitants of Montenegro say that they are talking Montenegrin as well as around 80% inhabitants of Serbia say that they are talking Serbian. So, this is not linguistic question and this name is correct. All articles named as "language" identify "languages in political sense", not "languages in linguistic sense". --millosh (talk (sr:)) 11:07, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Does this include Hittite language or English language? Nikola 16:09, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

You want the answer on your question? --millosh (talk (sr:)) 01:02, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Only if it would be an interesting one ;) Nikola 08:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

So, try to use some relevant sources about linguistics ;) Wikipedia may be good enough ;) --millosh (talk (sr:)) 16:56, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

To my knowledge, there is not a single political entity which defines Hittite or English language, yet both have articles. Nikola 19:14, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Try to learn: Prescription and description. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 16:16, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Try to stop beating your wife. Nikola 19:21, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I meant according to these: Cantonese (linguistics), Mandarin (linguistics), Flemish (linguistics). Logic says that we should also maove this to Montenegrin (linguistics). HolyRomanEmperor 20:24, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I meant according to these: Cantonese (linguistics), Mandarin (linguistics), Flemish (linguistics). Logic says that we should move this to Montenegrin (linguistics). HolyRomanEmperor 20:25, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that it may be slightly misleading to have this article where it is. I mean no neutral/objective linguist calls Montenegrin a language in its own right. Britannica, Encarta, Ethnologue, the CIA World Factbook, you name it; no reliable source calls Montenegrin a language in its own right. Even the vast majority of Montenegrins would appear to disagree with this "separate Montenegrin language ideology". It is perfectly clear that there are serious reasons why this article should be moved (to where, that's still debeatable). According to Wikipedia:Verifiability:

• Wikipedia should only publish material that is verifiable and is not original research.
• The goal of Wikipedia is to become a complete and reliable encyclopedia. Verifiability is the key to becoming a reliable resource, so editors should cite credible sources so that their edits can be easily verified by readers and other editors.
• One of the keys to writing good encyclopedia articles is to understand that they should refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by a reputable publisher.

Has a reputable publisher stated that there is a separate Montenegrin language? Au contraire, all reputable publishers. Of course it is not necessary to move it to Montenegrin (linguistics). Montenegrin would do, or even Montenegrin (language). What is absolutely essential though is to avoid deliberetly glossing over the fact that the vast majority of linguists view Montenegrin as a Serbian dialect and not a language in its own right. Rex^(talk) 22:50, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

PS: In response to your enquiry Nikola, the English and Hittite languages are called languages because they are recognised as such by every linguist on Earth. Can the same be said for Montenegrin? Rex^(talk) 22:50, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

What are your criteria for differentiating between a "language" and a "dialect" ? As far as I'm aware there are no fixed rules. I'll ask some of the professors of Linguistics in my department if they think Montenegrin is a language. Chances are they'll say yes. Why? Because no one really cares and there is no fixed criteria. If some people want to call it a language fine, its a language. If others don't whatever. The only people who care either way are wierd nationalist types with their strange agendas. If ~123,251 human beings want to call it a language then who are you to judge? Wikipedia is not the encyclopaedia Britannica, if it was it would look much different. - FrancisTyers 23:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "Montenegrin dialect". There are Eastern-Herzegovian (spoken in the most of Montenegro) and Zeto-South-Sandzak (spoken in the capitol, Podgorica) dialects in Montenegro. Montenegrin is language just because 22% of inhabitants of Montenegro said that their native language is Montenegrin. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 16:07, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Still, if there is a dialect that is spoken predominantly in Montenegro, it could be reasonably called Montenegrin dialect. Nikola 19:21, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

No, there is no "Montenegrin dialect" and no one calls it like thet here (in S&M) and you know it. Oh, sorry... I am trying to oppose to Nikola Smolenski, the great Serbian linguist. Sorry, I wouldn't do that again... --millosh (talk (sr:)) 01:06, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

OK then, if you want to nitpick, dialects spoken in Montenegro could be reasonably called Montenegrin dialects. Nikola 13:15, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, there are Montenegrin dialects, but we are talking here about prescribed standard language which is called "Montenegrin language", not about dialects, not about specific pronounce. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 19:53, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Prescribed standard language which is called "Montenegrin language" does not exist. No one prescribed it, no one has authority to accept a prescription as the standard. Nikola 11:59, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that a seperate Montenegrin language exists? As far as I can see, Britannica, Encarta, Hutchinson, and in a nutshell, every encyclopaedia I can find, says that in Montenegro, people speak Serbian. Even Ethnologue doesn't have an entry on Montenegrin! Where did this Montenegrin language theory come from (which incidentally is rejected as science fiction by the vast majority of Montenegrins themselves)? Rex^(talk) 12:08, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Honest linguist would say that there is only one standard language system all over S&M, B&H and Croatia. Whatever the name of the language is. All of that (standard) languages are based on Shtokavian dialect. BUT, it seems that this fact is not relevant to Britannica, Encarta, Ethnologue etc. The relevant axis is not linguistic, but politic. So, I really don't understand others then Serbian nationalists why they want to remove the name Montenegrin language. Please, try, for example, with Serbo-Croatian language, first. This standard language doesn't have any political support unlikely Montenegrin (around 100.000 of humans!). --millosh (talk (sr:)) 08:03, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I see you have failed to provide sources. I knew it *smirk*. How do I know that there is even an political issue, if not a linguistic one regarding this language/dialect? How do I know that it doesn't exist only in your fantasies? Can you provide a source which confirms what you are saying, because as far as I can see, so far it's a case of your word against Britannica's. Hmmm, who shall prevail :-) Rex^(talk) 20:38, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Enough sources are included in article. Montenegrin government says that they are using Montenegrin language and this is enough relevant. Ethnologue doesn't have Montenegrin just because they didn't add it yet. I am sure that they didn't have Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian before 1990s, too (but only Serbo-Croatian). --millosh (talk (sr:)) 06:39, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Francis told to you the point for a number of times. And I am telling to you the same as someone who has papers about standard Serbian language in the main periodics for standardization of Serbian language (Papers of the Council for Standardization of Serbian Language; my paper can be find here (in Serbian) ). (And note that my sentences are not it the sense "it is like that" but "it should be like that, you should do that, etc." I made one prescriptive paper about what should be the standard of Serbian language in the sense of computers: code pages, fonts, using markup languages etc.) --millosh (talk (sr:)) 06:39, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

The question of "language existance" is not the matter of linguistics. Linguistics describes language systems, but it doesn't say that some language exists or not. (Of course, linguistics can say that Hitite language doesn't exist anymore because there are no people who are talking even near to the Hitite language system.) Language constitution/existance is a matter of social relations between humans. In the past such relations was less formal and more "natural". Today social relations are very formal and all cultural characteristics are closely related to political goals of some social group. And language is one of those "cultural characteristics". --millosh (talk (sr:)) 06:39, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I can't agree with this at all. Linguistics studies language systems, but it can't define what is a language, can't tell whether something is a language or not, so hence can't say what a language system is? That would be the only science unable to define its subject then. Wikipedia article on linguistics defines it as "the scientific study of human language". Nikola 08:11, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

So, any "scientific evidence" is not relevant in this matter; i.e. don't try to find pro and contra in linguistics because there is no one linguistic evidence about it; scientific evidences can be find only in sociology and political science. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 06:39, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Let me ask you one question: Why do you call your language "Albanian"? Because you know that the language system spoken by you has evidence somewhere that it's name is "Albanian"? The name is written in language structure? No, you are calling the language with such name (in English, of course) because there is political will to call it in such way. And it would be like that until political will for that exists. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 06:39, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

And Wikipedia is encyclopedia and it describes facts, not some "ideal system". And the fact is that 100.000 humas say that they are talking Montenegrin language. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 06:39, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

We must draw a line! Why not make Jibberish language article then? HolyRomanEmperor 15:08, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Why not, if there are 20,000+ people saying that they speak the language?--RockyMM 15:29, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Because it doesn't exist? Nikola 19:21, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

It appears the Montenegrin authorities have begun to promote a distinct Montenegrin language more vigorously in anticipation of their independence referendum, as can be attested by the recent changes to the websites linked to in the article. At http://www.predsjednik.cg.yu/eng/, Crnogorksa-srpska verzija has been changed to Crnogorska verzija, while at http://www.gom.cg.yu/eng/ SRPSKI has become CRNOGORSKI. Strangely, srpski is still intact at http://www.montenegro.yu/english/naslovna/index.htm. Perhaps they haven't got round to it yet.--Theathenae 17:09, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

---

Has anyone heard the news about Bunjevac language (this is not a joke), and what are your comments? Nikola 19:24, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Seems to be covered in Szabadka. - FrancisTyers 19:51, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Edits by Nikola Smolenski

OK, I'll review all of your recent additions:

• while most of its speakers consider it a dialect of Serbian language It has already been said in the first sentence of the article that 'Montenegrin language is a name given to ... dialect'. There's no need to repeat that. Also, it has also been said that 'some' of the speakers refer to the dialect as a language, so reader can deduce that there're others who do not refer to dialect as a language. By using qualificator most you're clearly pushing POV of the latter speakers.
  • To ... Ijekavian-Štokavian dialect. That is not the same as Serbian dialect. Yes, it's obvious that most of the speakers don't refer to the dialect as a language, but as which language they refer to it? By using qualificator most I am pushing an undisputed fact. Nikola 19:35, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
• The whole paragraph about paralelism with other languages, Serbo-Croatian variants, is not needed. First, it is established so far in the article that we are talking about dialect and that as a language it is not recognized anywhere. Second, stating what most speaker say is really, really unbiased. In this manner you're discriminating those people who say that they speak Montenegrin language.
  • Yes, it is needed. On this very talk page here we have examples of

including on such pages as this which should probably be dealt with by people who actually know something about Montenegrin rather than Serbians who want this page to say "Montenegrin is not a language" and discount the claims of those who would say it is a language (I would say that Montenegrin is an independent language just as much as Bosnian, Serbian, and Croatian are,

• • and

I'd be interested in knowing how much the UNUDHR for Montenegrin would differ from the Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian entries... Would it be identical to the Serbian (in Latin) or would there be other differences?

• • So, it is neccessary to explain the difference. Nikola 19:35, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

• changing geographical references used in Serbia, Bosnia or Croatia) to language references used in standard Serbian, Bosnian or Croatian) is actually something I like. This way is more correct. Vocabulary is part of the language, not part of the state. This addition is good.
• Your last change is OK, but you've misspelled 'they'. {{dubious}}tag I've put for this sentence lost meaning when someone changed the sentence to what was like before. This can stay, but with proper spelling and some word order changes.

So this is it. What I wanted to say about Milo wining elections is that this issue is very political. As Millos have said here sr:Разговор:Црногорски језик it is a matter of day when Montenegrin proponets get ISO code for language, and some institution will appear and standardize the language, and we will have internationally recognized Montenegrin language. But, if Milo loses elections (and the upcoming referendum), whole thing will change. Until clear outcome of this matter, this article (before your disputed changes) is very neutral, and can be changed easily whatever course this whole thing takes. As you have demostrated with your edits. If Montenegrin gets recognized, we can easily change word dialect to language. If everybody in Montenegro stops calling their dialect a language, we can incorporate that also. So if you have nothing against, I will make changes that reflect what I have said above in say ... a week.--RockyMM 17:10, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

As I said, this is mostly irrelevant for the article. If Milo wins, and makes Montenegrin the official language of Montenegro, and inserts it in ISO 639, this should of course be mentioned in intro but wouldn't change the fact that most of its speakers claim to speak Serbian language. Its standard would warrant description, of course, but if it is standardised after Nikcevic we'd had to mention that the language isn't actually spoken by anyone, and if it's standardised after the actual speech, we'd has to mention that most speakers refer to it as Serbian. Nikola 19:35, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Move vote

Vote here for Move:

• Support. Reasons are obvious, it's not a language until it gains an international status like one. HolyRomanEmperor 17:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. There is no linguistic way of distinguishing between a language and a dialect. The distinction is socio-political. Some Montenegrins refer to Montenegrin as a language, notably the websites of the President and the Government. - FrancisTyers 18:08, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
• Support I support a move to Montenegrin (linguistics) or Montenegrin. There is no neutral evidence to suggest that an independent Montenegrin language exists. Rex^(talk) 18:27, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
  • The main evidence are 22% of inhabitants of Montenegro who say that they are talking Montenegrin language (not Serbian, not Serbo-Croatian, not Croatian, not Bosnian, but Montenegrin). --millosh (talk (sr:)) 19:21, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
    • 22% wow! What about the remaining 78%, what do they consider their language? Don't they count? What about Britannica which fails to mention a Montenegrin language, what about the CIA World Factbook, what about Encarta, what about every neutral linguist on the planet? I suggest you read Wikipedia is not a propaganda machine and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). Most commonly, Montenegrin is known as a Serbian dialect. This blatant minority POV pushing has got to stop. Rex^(talk) 20:44, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
      • 22% is all percent that matters.--RockyMM 11:38, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
        • Again, this is not a question of linguistics or linguists. - FrancisTyers 14:35, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
          • Whereas Flemish (linguistics) and Mandarin (linguistics) are? Can you provide us with any kind of source? I highly doubt that you can, as you are talking off the top of your head (that's a fact). Forcing an entire population to change their perception of their language for the sake of a minority. Truly sickening! Rex^(talk) 14:51, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
            • Irrelevant. What I said still stands. I suggest you actually try asking some linguists. - FrancisTyers 15:13, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
              • I did, I just checked Britannica and Ethnologue. No Montenegrin language there! That's because one doesn't exist. Why don't you provde some evidence for a change *smirk*. Rex^(talk) 18:35, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
                • Did you ask a linguist yet? - FrancisTyers 20:27, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
                  • Ethnologue are linguists, and they say that there is only a Montenegrin dialect, but they also say that there is a croatian language. Why are you interested in linguists all of a sudden, didn't you say that this issue doesn't concern linguists? Also, what evidence have you provided to prove that a political issue even exists? Nothing - so far, it's a case of linguists and Britannica's word against yours (you may even by lying who woulda thunk it?). Rex^(talk) 20:55, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
                    • The reason I suggested asking linguists is because every neutral one of them would say the same as I am saying... There is no linguistic basis for distinguishing between a "language" and a "dialect". This does not concern linguists, something you would find out quickly from asking one. I've searched the Ethnologue site and I can't find a reference to Montenegrin as a "dialect", could you provide a link? - FrancisTyers 22:11, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
                      • Here. A list of all the languages spoken in Serbia and Montenegro. See how detailed that list is? Where is Montenegrin? I'm not saying that there is a way to know whether Montenegrin is a language or a dialect. All I know is that the vast majority of sources and the Montenegrin people themselves, do not view Montenegrin as a language in its own right. Therefore, as the most common name is used under Wikipedia policy, that is what should be done here. Rex^(talk) 23:31, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose There should be an article like this, which explains to what one referes when one mentiones Montenegrin language. Montenegrin (linguistics) should be an article about linguistics alone, not about ongoing contraversy of the issue.--RockyMM 18:53, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Redirect from here to there would stay anyway. Nikola 13:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Unlike Cantonese (linguistics), this is not the matter of linguistics, but the matter of politics. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 19:15, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
• Strong oppose - see also Talk:Arvanitic language (in one phrase: if those people believe they speak a language and not a dialect of something else it's good enough for a title). +MATIA ☎ 19:39, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
• Comment Please keep in mind that Wikipedia has nothing to do with governments and international recognition (politics does not dictate contents on Wikipedia). If a concept exists and is notable, there is no reason for it not to exist in Wikipedia as is. --Dejan Čabrilo 00:00, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
• Support - it is not officially recognised as a language, there is no standard, most speakers of what is claimed to be Montenegrin language claim that they don't speak it. Nikola 13:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
• Comment According to most sources, in this moment it is not a language. Also I would say that (in my oppinion) it is in a process of forming and sooner or latter it will gain that status. Especially if Montenegro gets independant country, because it is a fact that politics have much to do with a recognition of a modern language. This is only my oppinion. Anyway, I am not an expert. Macedonian^(talk) 05:32, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
  • comment sociolinguistics is a very complicated area. +MATIA ☎ 21:43, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose: Agree with FrancisTyers. Jonathunder 20:51, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose "A language is a dialect with a flag and an army"; and at the moment Montenegro has both. Montenegrin or Montenegrin (linguistics) would appear to be the rational compromise; if anyone is interested. Septentrionalis 22:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
• Neutral -- use Montenegrin (linguistics) instead. AjaxSmack 08:20, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

---

Can we say the vote is over? How long do these things last? Current tally is: Support: 3, Oppose: 5. - FrancisTyers 15:23, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Milosh sounds reasonable. If they want it that way, they can have it. Although, I must say that I am sad. For all my life I am a crusader against the Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian languages (nothing lower that the Serbo-Croatian) and now I see a montenegrin language... HolyRomanEmperor 11:39, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

You have my sympathy. If the movers were not arguing that this is a dialect of "Serbian", I might have expressed a different opinion....Septentrionalis 22:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Me too, I'd prefer they just called it something neutral like Balkanian. But denying one won't make the others "re-merge" :/ - FrancisTyers 13:59, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I prefer the term "Shtokavian based (standard) languages" or even "Neo-Shtokavian based (standard) languages" because all of the languages are Neo-Shtokavian based. Through some time I would make some action to implement that because at least Croatian and Serbian communities support such term. For example, there is a sense to describe the basic language structure of all languages at one place, but not to be offensive toward Bosniak, Croatian and Serbian communities. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 15:13, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that many Croatian nationalists would get insulted if you count the Croatian as shtokav... (it's only partly that way) HolyRomanEmperor 14:43, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Croatian standard language is fully Shtokavian based and this is the fact which is known to all educated Croats. Kaykavian and Chakavian are Croatian dialects without significant influence into standard language. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 14:45, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Google search

Look at this. Someone, while finding information for article "Montenegrin language" on Uncyclopedia, searched the Montenegrin Internet using Google, looking for examples from this article: Montenegrin vs Serbian and Montenegrin vs Serbian. I think this is telling enough about "Montenegrin" and about accuracy of this silly Wikipedia article. --Djordje D. Bozovic 16:44, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Montenegrin language in Kosovo

Most of the Montenegrins in the west of Kosovo speek this language they are not like the serb they are somthing els, from the cultur and life. --Hipi Zhdripi 23:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

• Can you cite your sources for this, or are you basing this on a feeling? --RockyMM 11:17, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

No I m not basing on my fieleng but, Im sourcen for more neutral statistic. This is wery wery importen for the serbian gouverment and for the montenegriens wich dont wont to be a treachter in Kosovo problem. For exempl [1] [2], [3][4]--Hipi Zhdripi 02:30, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I CANT BELIEVE

I cant believe that this have its own article.....Crnogorski jezik hahahahahahahahah damn this is soooo stupidDzoni 17:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Indonesian comparison

The Indonesian article mentions it is a standarized version of a dialect of Malay yet it is still considered a seperate language, by that standard Montegrin is a seperate language, but I'm wondering if there is a difference between the standard, the political, and the linguistic definitions of a language and whether it should be said that it may qualify as a seperate language in one or more of those categories but not in the others.

The difference is that there are two dialects of Serbian spoken in teritory of Montenegro, and that there is no standard for Montenegrin, yet, as no body of authority has not yet published Montenegrin standard, or vocabulary or grammar.

Sign your comments!--RockyMM 12:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The language

Hehe. Montenegrin is a language, Boris. How many time do I have to tell you that. Personally Boris, what the hell is wrong with you? Didn't you ever read http://www.montenegro.org/language.html ? It'll show you that YOU ARE WRONG AND I WAS RIGHT!!! Look, the language was once a language but then Serbs (actually Vuk Stefanović Karadžić) changed it so it can match their own language, and other similar South Slavic languages. Even the alphabet was changed so it wouldn't include the old Montenegin letters: Ś, Ź, and 3. And if you've ever heard an old person speak Montenegrin (the old language before its reform), you'd see that it sounds different from Serbian, but I really doubt that many who still speak Montenegrin. Look Boris, I know more about Montenegro and everything about it than you do. So face it. Montenegrin was once a language and will be again when Montenegro proclaims it as their official language, which should be sometime either this year or early next year. Crna Gora ^{(Talk/Contribs/Edit Count)} 23:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

One last thing, I'M AGAINST THE MOVE!!!!!!! (as stated above) Crna Gora ^{(Talk/Contribs/Edit Count)} 23:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The page you mentioned proves nothing. There are no written proofs of Montenegrin nor anybody mentioned an adjective Montenegrin in sence of a language EVER before 20th century. Any selfrespecting philologist would tell you that. Even if that is not good enough for you, same that "Montenegrin language" was spoken in Sandzak, and nobody from Sandzak would call himself a Montenegrin. Same language. Completly same. Peroid.
Then again, if that is the decision of the Montenegrin people, they can call language they speak any way they like, as soon some body of authority publishes some work on it.--RockyMM 10:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)