Talk:Monarchianism

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I believe the following statement from the article is in error:

The problem with reconciling such a belief with the orthodoxy of the Church was that the Catholic interpretation of God as the Trinity, while it places the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as co-eternal, equal beings, does not go so far as to say that all three are the same essence, which is the principal tenet of the flavor of Monarchism known as Modalism, which states that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are exactly one and the same as the Father (in different "modes").

The First Ecumenical Council made it very clear that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit share one divine essence: the Greek word they used was homoousious (sp?), and this word was incorporated into the Nicene Creed. They avoided Modalism by maintaining the distinction between the three persons of the Trinity. It is a fine line, but also one that is well delineated. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about monarchianism to correct the above. If no one else does, I'll try to when I have the time. Wesley

After doing a small amount of reading, I replaced 'essence' with 'person ' in the article. Standard Catholic and Orthodox teaching is that there are three distinct persons in the Trinity who share just one divine essence. Although the one essence formula was rejected at the Synod of Antioch in 268 in relation to this controversy, it was later accepted by the entire Church in 325 at the First Ecumenical Council. Wesley 22:01 Nov 5, 2002 (UTC)

I understand one of the early difficulties between east and west in the debate was that the Latin-speaking west spoke of one substantia and three personae, while the Greek-speaking east spoke of one ousía and three hupostáseis, both of which words were usually translated by Latin substantia(e). Both sides took Latin substantia as equivalent to Greek hupóstasis, which it certainly is etymologically, and often semantically. So the Greeks understood the Romans as advocating modalism with only one hupóstasis, while the Romans heard the Greeks supporting tritheism with three substantiae. They eventually decided they were really saying the same thing in different words. The Latin word essentia was coined later (by Augustine, I think) as a more exact equivalent to ousía.

The first known use of trinitas was by Tertullian. But Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, who was martyred early in the 2nd century (I've seen both 107 and 115 given as dates), who must have known the apostles, and was therefore in a better position than we are to understand their meaning, disagreed very strongly with modalism (or patripassianism), and understood Father, Son and Paraclete as equal but distinct.—Copey 2 13:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rant inserted into article

Modelism (>Modalism) is what the 1st Century Church (Apostolic) practiced and believed. They where (>were) still sons of the law. Read Deuteronomy 6:4: It states that God is One! This is the basis for the entire law. Jesus came to fulfill the law. In order to do that, Jesus would have to be fully God and fully man. The invisable (>invisible) God of the Old Testament would have to become visable (>visible) in the New Testament. God became man and dwelt among us: Read Matthew: His name shall be called Immanuel, being literally interpretted (>interpreted) God with us! Jesus is the Father incarnate in human flesh and that is what modelism (>modalism) seeks to show.

You must remember that from the conception of the church they where (>were) modelistic (>modalistic) in their beliefs. It was not until between 230 to 250 AD that the Catholics show up on the scene and create the doctrine called the Trinity. And it is not until 325 AD at the council of Nicaea that the (>they) lock out the Montenasts (>Montanists) (Apostolics) which where (>were) 2/3rds of the church and make the Trinity the dominate (>dominant) doctrinal view of the church. Caesar Constantine help (>helped) the Catholics lock out the Montenasts (>Montanists) (Apostolics) in 325 AD. And it was at that point that Christianity merged with Pagan. Read the Book of Revelations (>Revelation) and the 3rd Church, a mixture of Christian and a mixture of Pagan. This is what Jesus showed John in the book of Revelation. The 4th Church is also Catholic and it is a dead church and Jesus command to John was to warn people to come out, because nobody was being saved in this church! To this day, that is the state of the Catholic Church.

Modelists (>Modalists) today are Apostolics. The United Pentecostal Church is the largest of these groups and is the fastest growing church in North America and one of the fastest growing christian churches in the World. And its view is the same as the 1st Century Church, God is ONE (Oneness). Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are titles, not names of God, but manifestations of God in relation to humanity. Jesus is God in the flesh. Only God can forgive sin, that is what the Pharisees crucified Jesus for, declaring that he infact (>in fact) was God. Note that Jesus told the people of Israel, the Pharisees, and Govenor (>governor) Pilot (Pilate) that he was the "I AM." In the Old Testament that was the closest name to God. Jehovah, Yahwey, Adoni, and 72 names in all where only descriptive. I AM was what God told Moses his name was! That is what Jesus identified himself with when he walked this Earth! Jesus is the Father, Jesus is the Son, Jesus is the Holy Ghost, and Jesus is God manifest in human flesh. God incarnate in a human body, reconciling the world unto himself!

For some unknown reason User:Zsinj has restored this rant to the article.

I'm loving the rant. You may have not heard of it but the New Church has almost identical teachings about the Oneness of God, and the christological and theological system that backs it up is very thorough and coherent. I'm glad your church is growing so fast. This is exactly the direction the Lord wants us to be moving. Check out The New Church to compare with Oneness Pentecostals.

Ignatius of Antioch (martyred some time between 107 and 115 AD) must have known the apostles, and he totally rejects monarchian modalism. He was in a far better position than we are to know how the apostles understood the relationship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Copey 2 09:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

If the Montanists had been monarchian modalists, Tertullian would not have joined them. He was the man who first applied the Latin word Trinitās to the nature of God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Copey 2 13:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)