Talk:Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact

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Talk:Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact/Archive 1

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[edit] Where is the evidence for Soviet resistance before the pact was signed

There is a general theme made several times in the article that the Soviets had sought to undermine Germany for years, and signed the pact because Britain and France and other powers would not act against Germany. It is also mentioned that the Soviets needed to sign the pact as a way to prepare against a German invasion. Is there any real evidence to support this? If not, I would really like to take this Stalinist apology out. TDC 17:30, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

Prior to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the Soviet Union and the Comintern supported the popular front strategy, which basically said "we'll ally and work together with anyone who wants to fight against fascism". Furthermore, the Spanish Civil War was in its later stages a proxy war between the Nazi-backed nationalists and the Soviet-backed republicans. In Germany itself, the pro-Soviet KPD fought bitterly (both politically in elections, and physically on the streets) against the Nazis before 1933. In 1933, the KPD became the very FIRST victims of Nazi terror (before the Nazi's got around to the Jews). Finally, Hitler created the infamous Anti-Comintern Pact for the purpose of fighting communism in general and the Soviet Union in particular. The Anti-comintern pact later gave birth to the Axis.
Proof enough for ya? -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:07, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It proves that two extremely similar rival groups were engaged in a battle over street turf. When two groups of fanatics are bent on conquering the world, what's going to happen? It doesn't make the Soviets any more noble than the Nazi's. After all, they're both socialist groups. Look at their goals and their methods. Also, according to Karl Marx, the enemy of the masses is the bourgeiousie, or middle class, NOT "fascism." The fascists were merely communist rivals, like Al Capone fighting Mugsy Malone.

Soviet apologecy and propaganda are not at all irrelevant, as it influenced the public opinion (and official propaganda) as far away as in France, Britain and the United States. However, the article might well be served by a more careful wording. --Johan Magnus 17:55, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Soviets did resist the Nazi's in Spain, they did offer complete support to the Czechs (the western powers actively kept them out of the 4 power discussion prior to Munich - the 4th country being Italy which gave diplomatic support to Germany), they even proposed joint action to save what was left of the Czechs when Hitler violated Munich, the Soviets proposed alliance over Poland (the UK & France but mainly the UK refused). On all these points the USSR opposed the Nazis when the westrn powers can barely be described as neutral. On this point I would also like to see removal of the sentence "Furthermore, the Soviet Union pursued a policy of encouraging capitalist countries to fight each other, in order to stimulate World Revolution" & the paragraph further down about the Soviets not being interested in the status quo. The Soviet economy was growing so fast that the status quo was very much in their interest & they did not engage in adventurism either in Europe or against the Japanese or Turks. This might be arguable for the 20s. When Hitler came to power the Soviets very actively sought a Popular Front against him, including subordinating the revolutionary instincts of western communist parties to a joint alliance. Stalin can be attacked for cynically selling out communism in the interests of western friendship but not vice versa. The Hitler Stalin Pact only took place after the attempt to achieve such an alliance had repeatedly failed. Neil Craig

Hitler claimed that the Soviets had sought to undermine Germany for years, so it is not just a "Stalinist apology". The USSR did seek to undermine capitalism in Germany for years, which would be obvious to anyone who read the Comintern archives of relations between the VKP and KPD. And of course Britain and France didn't act against Germany - is that a Stalinist apology, because I hear right-wing hacks talking about how Chamberlain appeased Nazi Germany all the time. I don't think any of this is controversial. As far as signing to stave off invasion for a while (and to industrialize and prepare), what is your counter-argument to this, that Stalin was a naive, good-hearted rube who just fell off the turnip truck and trusted Hitler? Ruy Lopez 13:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I would have an easier time swallowing this had it not been for Stalin's willingess to help Germany fuel its war machine via trade and acting as an intermediate to circumvent the Allied blockade. This might be explained by Stalin's secret August 19, 1939 speech to the Politburo. TDC 14:42, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

We should be careful, in light of subsequent events, to take Stalin's offer of "help" for the Czechs in 1938 at face value; the western allies' rejection of alliance with Stalin was due, at least in part, to their suspicions of his ulterior motives. --ProhibitOnions 12:33, 2005 May 20 (UTC)

Didn't Vladimir Lenin say that "Treaties are like pie crusts; made to be broken."? How are you going to trust someone with a philosophy such as that? Similarly, didn't Hitler call the Munich agreement "a worthless scrap of paper"?
Furthermore, the Soviet Union pursued a policy of encouraging capitalist countries to fight each other, in order to stimulate World Revolution.

Speculation. Facts, please. Mikkalai 18:15, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, more speculation: Stalin's "Secret speech" to Politbyro Aug 19, 1939. Classified document released after Soviet collapse and published by T.S. Bushuyeva:
"The question of war or peace has entered a critical phase for us. If we conclude a mutual assistance pact with France and Great Britain, Germany will back off from Poland and seek a modus vivendi with the Western powers. War would be avoided, but down the road events could become dangerous for the USSR. If we accept Germany's proposal and conclude a nonaggression pact with her, she will of course invade Poland, and the intervention of France and England in that war would be unavoidable. Western Europe would be subjected to serious upheavals and disorder. Under those conditions, we would have a great opportunity to stay out of the conflict, and we could plan the opportune time for us to enter the war."
"The experience of the last 20 years has shown that in peacetime the Communist movement is never strong enough to seize power. The dictatorship of such a party will only become possible as the result of a major war."
"Our choice is clear. We must accept the German proposal and politely send the Anglo-French mission home. Our immediate advantage will be to take Poland to the gates of Warsaw, as well as Ukrainian Galicia ..."
This is in concert with Second (Socialist) International Basel resolution which called proletariat to rise against warring capitalist, but what do you think? Whiskey 00:01, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Didn't Karl Marx write that the reactionary systems such as capitalism would either "give way, or be destroyed?" Weren't Karl Marx's writings based on the theory of class warfare?
Guys, this is ridiculois. ANY pragmatic leader would prefer to watch his enemies fight it out, waiting to join in the end to rip the benefits. It is what USA did in WW1, it is what UK tried to do in 1938 and what USSR tried to do in 1939. Truman said to a journalist on June 23 in regards to war in Russia - "If the Germans will be winning we should be helping the Soviets, and if the Soviets will be winning, we should be helping the Germans, and let them kill more and more". With respect, Ko Soi IX 20:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Did Stalin conclude a 'defensive pact'?

It is an accepted truth among the historians that Stalin's primary motif for signing the treaty with his arch-enemy was to gain time in order to prepare his country for an inevitable German invasion. It is astonishing, though, that such a theory has been almost universally accepted, albeit it doesn't hold any criticism.

To begin with, we have following premises: Soviet military was weak in 1939, German military was strong, Germany was planning to invade Soviet Union in the near future. From such premises people try to conclude that Stalin signed the pact so as to 'postpone' the unavoidable German agression and to stregthen the Soviet army and defences to meet the aggression.

But every exploring mind would necessarily ask at least two questions:

(1)What kind of defence did this pact really offer to the Soviets?
(2)What would have happened if there would have been no non-aggression pact?

It is almost unanimously claimed that Hitler was to attack Soviet Union at the first possible moment and provided that the German military was much stronger than the Red army (in 1939), it would have been logical for Hitler to invade Soviets as soon as gaining a common border (which the pact did enable).

From the Soviet point of view, how was this pact going to prevent the Germans from atttacking the Soviet Union immediately (without allowing weak Soviet Union any additional time to strengthen its defences)? Was Stalin such a lunatic as to believe that on August 23 there was a peril of immediate German attack but a piece of paper would hinder the enemy? Had there been no pact, had Germany conquered Poland (although that country would have endured longer without Soviet 'stab in the back'...) and then immediately invaded the still weak Soviet Union?

It might be claimed the Soviets feared an alliance of Germany and the Anglo-French allies. But the effect of Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was rather giving Hitler a means to pressurise the Western leaders for the latter two couldn't account on any kind of Soviet assistance assistance from that time on!? Constanz 13:06, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Naturally, Soviet cooperation with the Germans that followed the pact also proves the idiocy of arguments as if Stalin's motif was German threat. Had he been afraid of Germany, helping its war effort ([1]) can hardly be justified.

Also noteworthy is the pro-German job done by Comintern. At first, Anglo-French commies retained the anti-Nazi position (yet another change in Comintern direction was not easy to comprehend for them), but were soon pressurised by 'International Communist Movement' to accept revolutionary defeatism, which in the case of France, where PCF was a rather influential force, definitely contributed to French defeat. After the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the outbreak of World War II in 1939, the PCF was declared a proscribed organisation. The PCF pursued an anti-war course during the early part of the Second World War. Thorez deserted from the French Army and fled to the Soviet Union. When the Germans invaded France, the PCF took a "neutralist" position, and initially collaborated with the German occupiers.1 It is not easy to explain, how, in the view of Stalin, Soviet and Western communists' active contribution to the Anglo-French defeat in 1940 could have stregthened the USSR, anxiously waiting for allmighty Hitler to invade it!? Constanz - Talk 18:02, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I am suprised that the fact that the USSR was fighting a war with Japan in the Far East at that time is not mentioned in the article. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact ensured that the USSR will not be fighting a war on two fronts as the Japanese were shocked that their ally Germany signed such a pact with their enemies. After the pact and the defeated at Khalhin Gol (Nommonhan) Japan abandoned plans for a northern expansion in favor of expanding south. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.198.125.64 (talk • contribs) 07:27, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact ensured that the USSR will not be fighting a war on two fronts -- that reflects the very same thesis which I have been disputing here: how did this pact exclude the possibility of a German invasion (war at 2 fronts)???--Constanz - Talk 14:09, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

By no means did the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact ensure that Germany will not invade. However, for the Japanese this pact was a stab in the back. This, coupled with japanese defeats at lake Hasan (1938) and Khalhin Gol (Nomonhan) in 1939 ensured that the Japanese will not attack the USSR and instead focus on southern expansion. Ultimately, a non-agression pact was signed with Japan, only to be breached by the Soviets in August 1945.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.198.125.64 (talk • contribs) 07:27, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

To prove that i'm not writing original research here, citations by Carl Nordling who seems to have reached similar conclusions:

Most established historians argue that in such a situation Stalin had no alternative but to enter into a pact with Hitler instead. By way of example, A. J. P. Taylor (1906-90), the well-known English Professor of History, wrote: "It is difficult to see what other course Soviet Russia could have followed." He thinks the Ribbentrop-Pact was in the last resort anti-German: "It limited the German advance eastwards in case of war." Apparently Taylor thinks that the Germans would have taken Moscow if not the Pact had limited their penetration.The actual result of the Pact was, however, that Poland ceased to function as buffer in case of a German assault. A professorial chair at Oxford seems to be tantamount to a license to write sheer rubbish.[1]

And also: Even so, according to Carr, the Pact gave Stalin another and more important advantage. It granted that "if Soviet Russia had eventually to fight Hitler, the Western Powers would already be involved." Here Carr conveniently disregards the fact that both treaty parties were notorious breakers of treaties. None of them attached any importance to signatures on a piece of paper. Carr himself knew that the Pact did not prevent Hitler from attacking the Soviet Union in June 1941. [...] Also the guarantee (through the Pact) that the Western Powers would be at war before a possible attack on the Soviet Union did not exist. Such a guarantee would have required a Soviet pact with the Western Powers instead; something Stalin had declined. With such a pact no German troops could have reached Soviet territory before the outbreak of a German war against Poland and her two allies.

Every serious historian certainly realizes that neither Stalin nor Hitler felt himself bound to pacts, vows or other commitments. All accept that at least Hitler entered into the Pact with the intention to break it at the first suitable moment. Still they cling to the thought that the Ribbentrop Pact prevented Hitler from breaking it during precisely 22 months. What if Hitler had seen a suitable moment turning up after 22 days? Certainly, Hitler could have attacked the Soviet Union at any moment between October 1939 and June 1941 if he had seen fit to do so, pact or no pact. It is obvious that the strategic possibility for an attack did not appear at any time before May 1941. The Pact did not protect the Soviet Union in the least.[2] I'd like to use similar material in the article.

[edit] Ref

  1. ^ 'The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact provoked the outbreak of WW II. New evidence indicates Stalin as the architect of the Pact.' By Carl O. Nordling http://www.carlonordling.se/ww2/stalinevoke.html
  2. ^ 'The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact provoked the outbreak of WW II. New evidence indicates Stalin as the architect of the Pact.' By Carl O. Nordling http://www.carlonordling.se/ww2/stalinevoke.html

[edit] The former Russian provinces ?

I'm concerned about the wording used in the article: "the former Russian provinces incorporated in Poland in 1920" which might suggest to an unaware reader that these territories were historically Russian, while they were merely occupied by Russia in course of the Partitions of Poland. Any idea how this could be rephrased in a less POV way ? --Lysy (talk) 19:20, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I see your point. The entire Poland was once a Russian province (Kraj Nadwiślański etc.). We can always write a para with the explanation of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Partitions of Poland and Polish-Soviet War and their revelance to those territories. For now, I chaged the text to read the Soviet government sought to annex the disputed territories of Kresy incorporated in Poland in 1920 after the Polish-Soviet war - hopefully this will clear the confusion. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:29, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

"Disputed" is fine with me as it does not imply any POV conclusions. Thanks. --Lysy (talk) 20:54, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Of course, let's completely neglect the fact that Poland and Lithuania had stolen ancient substantial Russian territory after the Tatar invasion of Kievan Rus in 1237. The majority of this territory in concern was occupied by Ukrainians and Byelorussians. This territory had been a part of Russia from 862 until after the Tatar invasion which was followed by Polish and Lithuanian aggression. Subsequently, Galicia, Volhnyia, Smolensk, and others were stolen.

[edit] About the signature picture

It is authentic and was found from www.histdoc.net/history/history.html. Scroll down the page. --Thorri 11:18, 9 Oct 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Munich Agreement and Soviet foreign policy

The text is biased, concentrates on Stalin's SU isolation caused by Soviet policy. There is a long tradition of Stalinist historiography, in the East and in the West. The beloved thesis - 300 km (?) of Eastern Poland saved Moscow. Another one - Poland was a German ally, divided Chechoslovakia together with Germany in 1938 (but not with Hungary, Hungary is a good guy), so the SU had moral right to divide Poland. Xx236 12:19, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The one-way analysis of the text can only suggest its bias. Talking about the pact, you may want to mention something 'little' like there is no original of it available anywhere. Only a copy. I can hardly believe Stalin burnt it himself on 22/06/41. On the following day, if I'm not mistaken, the following day "Pravda" newspaper published the pact's map which showed the USSR's border by the line French foreign minister drew in 1913 as Russian Empire's historical border. This is not the one from "secret protocol". In addition, there is still a posibility of the secret protocol be added to the pact by Khrushev's people. The last one is not the fact, but something to think about. Please, let's not go into the discussion of Poland's borders here. It can be done elsewhere.
...there is still a posibility of the secret protocol be added to the pact by Khrushev's people. Is it also possible that victims of Moscow show trials really committed those terrible crimes? May-be the whole story of Gulag Archipelago is a rotten disinformation forged by class enemy? (Winter war was provoked by Finland who was plotting to invade Soviet Union, needless to say...) I'm afraid, though, that concerning the general consensus, you should discuss those themes in a proper place -- e.g Renminribao online Constanz - Talk 12:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Okay, mate, I didn't want to offend or push point regardless of anything onto you. What I said is there is an alternative theory. You like it or not, but it must be also shown. This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper article. If there is a reason why to restrict some information from being published, then please say so. Especially accounting for the relevance of this particular one. With Moscow trials, please also mention the fact foreign journalists were present and their opinions at that time. Any theory, including historical, is valuably on its predictive explanation, not ad hoc one. This statement may be rephrased to match this particular case if you wish. With Finland, please tell other readers about German troops present in it and their claims for Karelia and their governmental debates. But, let's leave it at USSR-Germany Pact's discussion board and carry on on a relevant one.
WOW! German troops in Finland before Winter War? Could you please give your sources? What German units were then in Finland? What governmental debates are you referring?--Whiskey 00:33, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
foreign journalists were present and their opinions at that time -- Are you recalling us Andrei Vyshinsky, famous exponent of Soviet Law, who used to say "Confession is a queen over all sorts of evidence"? Yes, they all confessed but actually it speaks against Soviet system and not for. As pointed out by Solzhenitsyn, George Dimitrov turned his trial in Leipzig into public humiliation of Nazi regime, but former members of Leninist Guard appeared in court, 'smelling of urine' and confessing all the unbelievable crimes allocated by Soviet 'law specialists'. Constanz - Talk
Solzhenitsyn is a known liar and falsificator, which is only amplified by his literary talent. (ps. even though this is no argument, but even his last name means "One who lies" in Russian)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.198.125.64 (talk • contribs) 07:27, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Solzhenitsyn is a known liar and falsificator -- could you recall one of his great lies and falsifications (invention of [[Gulag Archipelago, I presume)?--Constanz - Talk 16:37, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Not invention, but rather interpretation. While his stories like "One Day of Ivan Denisovich" are truthfull and with an attention to detail, his major work "Archipelag Gulag" is innacurate and proposterous. Simple analysis of what is possible and what is not will reveal that many things in it he just pulled out of his ass (pardon the expression). He was a propaganda soldier on the american side.

Lies by Solzhenitsyn - for example, an obsolutely baseless claim that 60 million soviet citizens died in Gulag administered camps. WIth respect, Ko Soi IX 20:18, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can we add those pictures ?

I think the pictures of those friendly meetings and handshakes between soldiers of SU and Nazi Reich would demonstrate the climate of their relationship in 1939-1941. http://www.videofact.com/images/sov_germ11.jpg http://www.videofact.com/images/sov_germ12.jpg http://www.videofact.com/images/sov_germ13.jpg http://www.videofact.com/images/sov_germ14.jpg http://www.ska.pl/biorytm/tankista.jpg --Molobo 09:50, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Perfect pictures to depict the 'friendly meetings of our sentries in that shabby Poland' and 'those brave men fighting against Anglo-French bankers' as Pravda headlines told in 1939 (reported by Solzhenitsyn). In case copyright allows us, it should be done. Constanz - Talk 17:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
These pictures are only nice as an additional multimedia material, but not historical. Would you be kind enough to explain what historical conclusions can you make from these photos? If it is the fact soviet soldiers were shaking germans' hands upon meeting, rather than shoot each other, then it is a very serious non-historical discussion. Signing a pact with Japan in April 1941, you could see Stalin shake Japanese foreign minister's hand and even smile. What follows from it? That they loved each other and Japanese were willing to join their Soviet, communist brothers? Sadly, looking back it was pretty contrary. So, I can see absolutely no historical argumentation to present these pictures in this sensitive historcial issue. But, yes, I enjoy looking at all historical photos myself to includes these 5. Thanks Xiaoxiong
these pictures in this sensitive historcial issue -- that's precisely why we shouldn't deny the Soviet active participation in the aggressive war against Poland. I don't claim Stalin was a disguised Nazi (regarding his cheers to leaders of nazi-block states), but I claim he was no lesser evil than Hitler. Why referring to 'Pravda' headlines of the day? -- just to uncover the very essence of Stalinist regime, its complete lack of any principles and Machiavellianism par excellence. Constanz - Talk 14:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
first of all, let's call it an aggression or an intervention. it is a war as long as there is a government on the other side. as you may know/guess it wasn't quite the case after the 3rd of september onwards. also, you may refer to polish ambassador's reply to soviet note before going into the "aggressive war". But, let's leave it here. Coming back to the photos. You still haven't specified the historical meaning of them. May I also publish photos from Munich 1938 and claim this is the clear proof of British and French government's trying to join the facist axis? A photo from 1942 where a Russian soldier is fighting for SS division and claim there was still nearly sexual love between Russians and Germans at the time and, moreover, Stalin personally supported this as it helped him to kill Soviet people? I'm glad you are smiling at these ideas, but sadly it is not greatly different from the above 5. In the end, I really appreciate your historical couriosity and you will to discuss something 'untouchable', but all I am up for is to put your personal feelings to a side. History is history and it is the most interesting to look at it from different angles rather than try to use it for one's personal satisfaction. I guess you are also not Russian, so this is something both of us, hopefully, have no prejudement. Xiaoxiong
Why do you find the 'friendly venues of Soviet and German soldiers' irrelevant to history? And the smiling Stalin and Ribbentrop (it's a pity Stalin and Hitler didn't have any time for friendly meetings)? Really, as Stalin hoped to maintain (--- you claim it) this grand alliance of two Great Dictators as long as possible, why not showing the photographs of such touching scenes? Constanz - Talk 13:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Interest spheres known before - what is purpose of secret protocol?

I used to think the purpose of the secret protocol was to agree on the spheres of interest, until I saw a map collection printed in 1938, which already contained the border between the German and the Soviet sphere of interest. This makes me wonder, is the version of history I learned in highschool in Germany wrong? And what was the purpose of the secret protocol? Is it widely known that such maps existed or not? CuriousOliver 00:03, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

You may want to read the discussion about pictures, just above. There, my attempt to get some people to agree on dubious nature of historical reality of the protocol and the map. Anyway, which maps exactly are you talking about? User:XiaoXiong
Yes, if you have the maps, you should really bring them here. Can you say where, when and who have printed them, how the borderlines are presented and named and how the border goes in Lithuania and Poland? (Well, I'm a little bit sceptic with those maps, really. I wonder if they are printed later but contain the situation of 1938 or if the border is not about spheres of interest but Russian and German empires of 1914.) And XiaoXiong, could you please answer my previous question about the German troops in Finland? --Whiskey 00:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I've seen myself printed in a magazine a Soviet map from pre-MRP time, where the Baltic States are shown as already part of the USSR. Constanz - Talk 15:16, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] German-Soviet Boundary and Friendship Treaty

Is this[2] the alternate name for THIS treaty? If so, a redirect should be created and the name added to the main article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:37, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

German-Soviet Boundary and Friendship Treaty was signed after the Nazi-Soviet allies had conquered Poland. It defined the border, minor changes were made and Lituahia was given to Soviet sphere (pripr to this, Lithuania was regarded part of German sphere of interest.) --Constanz - Talk 15:24, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

It should be noted that Soviet forces only entered Poland AFTER Nazi and Nazi allies invaded Poland and AFTER Polish troops and government escaped Nazi occupied Poland.

-G

[edit] El Jigue to be banned again

I just inserted ""After the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the outbreak of World War II in 1939, the PCF (French Communist Party) was declared a proscribed organisation. The PCF pursued an anti-war course during the early part of the Second World War." Maurice Thorez head of PCF "deserted from the French Army and fled to the Soviet Union. " [3] " into Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact entry. It (within three minutes) was deleted and I expect to be banned again soon. Will be back after ban ends. El Jigue 3-24-06

[edit] Participation of the French Communists in the fall of France

If it can be documented that the French Communists sabotaged the war effort I would say that it belongs here because presumably they would not have done so unless so directed by the Soviets. However any evidence of such an order from Moscow would be helpful as well. If it’s true I don’t see any justification from omitting that information here.Lenbrazil 02:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Once again the participation of the French Communists in the fall of France to the Nazis has been deleted by Curps again by Mikkalai. However, so far these two have not repeated their previous false accusation of vandalism and colluded to get me banned. One notes that although I appreciate the mild mannered correction of Constanz, this correction does not cover communist sabotage of the Renout Tank Factory and aircraft. El Jigue 3-24-06

And it will be deleted again. This article is about the Pact. If you want to include anything else, please demonstrate the immediate relevance. mikka (t) 05:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
If we are talking about the influence of the pact (Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact#Effects), then let us also mention its influence on Commieintern and latter's yet another U-Turn. This subversive organization had its influence on the West, the Western public opinion (let us not forget ardent communist intellectuals!), and according to Soviet sources (i'm citing Soviet-era biography of Ch.de Gaulle), 1/10 of the French army soldiers (in 1940) were communists! --Constanz - Talk 12:33, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Dunno who died and left you G-d of Wikipedia. The pact was "immediately" acted upon by French and English Communists who were directed to reverse gears and help the Nazi's in the expectation of a chaotic circumstance in France which was believed would favor the advance of communism. To the credit of the bemused French communists this was not terrible effective but it did exist and at that point did have some effect despite what all the communist apologists say. Of course as soon as Hitler invaded Russia this was immediately reversed, and the French communists were then directed to attack German forces. Go ahead and try to ban me again and try to delete any remarks I may make, that will not work. You already been rebuked by others and too many people are watching. El Jigue 3-24-06

Mikkalai lay off Constanz and stop deleting his stuff it gives the impression, surely false, that you are just a stalinist apologist El Jigue 3-24-06

Reputable references, please, and no one will delete it. I know plenty of smart theories myself. The current version is OK. mikka (t) 19:31, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Can one cite any reputable sources which claim that Communist behavior played any major role in the French defeat in 1940? I am doubtful - I have read a fair amount on the subject, and have never come across this argument. And even if it were accurate, its application to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact article is highly dubious. john k 04:55, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
In what wauy is it dubious to the article? The pro-nazi stance in Commieintern policies is an effect; also, as I've mentioned before, 1/10 of the French soldiers were said to be communists. --Constanz - Talk 06:20, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Because the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact article should be about the pact. Noting briefly that it had the effect of making the various western communist parties oppose the war until the invasion of the Soviet Union is one thing. But going into detail about it supposedly bringing about the fall of France would, even if it could be supported, belong in the Comintern and French Communist Party articles. Beyond that, we need an actual source that says that the PCF's position had any significant effect on the French war effort. My understanding is that the PCF's position did a lot more damage to it than it did to the French army. Even many communists were disillusioned by the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. john k 14:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect

This redirects from "Nazi-Soviet Alliance". How is this different from what Plisudski and co. pulled off in 1934? Can we delete the "alliance" redirect and just keep the M-R pact page?

Did Pilsudski in 1934 ally himself with France to annex Germany? Or perhaps did he ally himself with Uganda to dismantle Burundi? I'm not sure how is it related to this article. //Halibutt 20:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe I made a mistake. It wasn't Plisudski, after all.

But Poland did partition parts of Czecholovakia with the Nazis in 1938. Smaller parts, naturally, but this was an identical situation, overall. ~=========== It would be nice to see opions signed by the autor. Or is the author ashamed of his simplification?

1. Hungary partitioned Czechoslovakia much intensiver than Poland but Poland seems to be the bad guy. 2. Poland didn't cooperate with the Nazis but executed the will of France, GB, Italy and Germany. 3. Czechoslovakia took the disputed area when the Soviets invided Poland. Was it more "ethical" than the unfortunate Polish action of 1938? Did the division of the city of Cieszyn between two states 1920 represent the opinions of the local people? 4. The Czech Wikipedia is interested 100 times less in the subject,than pro-Soviet and anti-Polish activists in other Wikipedias. Poland didn't exterminate the local population and didn't deport thousands to Siberia.

I would like to know what is the source of this stereotypes. Are they spread at schools, by media, by biased historians? Xx236 07:30, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

In 1920 Poland was the aggressor; and the lands that got partitioned in 1939 were snatched from Ukraine and SU by Poland, just like Cieczyn was taken by the Czechs at that time. In both cases, the reversal came in 1938/9 as a result of a pact with the Germans. The situation is very similar in all but scale. And you know what, I don't want to sign anything. Signing in Wikipedia only means opening yourself to be flamed in every article you ever work on.

Where do your views come from? Are they spread by the entrenched and convenient view of Poland as a perpetual victim of these and those and thus guiltless? Are they driven by some kind of, I don't know, irrational dislike of Soviets and Russians in particular? A tendency to scapegoat? Instilled by media, schools, or biased historians?

You tell me.

[edit] Background

The Background repeats the same informations twice . The same informations are repeated in other paragraphs. An English speaking editor is needed. Xx236 11:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] It was necessary

Such statement makes the Soviet Union a little object of the world policy. It's Soviet propaganda, made by an anonynous contributor. The Soviet Union had one of the biggest armies of the world and no common border with Germany. It wasn't necessery to help the Nazi to destroy Poland, making basis for 1941 aggression. Xx236 08:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The Pact was an aid for Germany and the SU to rehabilitate and stabilize the regions in question if it fell apart or into turmoil. It wasn’t a intention for war or occupation. The SU found out to late that it was an excuse for Nazi Germany.
This is not supported by the evidence. The Soviets had suggested a fourth partition of Poland several times to the Germans from 1920 on. The Soviet invasion was made as a result of a direct request from Ribbentrop. These dictators were in it together. Prezen 20:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] German Communist prisoners

How come the treaty appeard to do little for German communists many of whom were being persecuted and/or imprison in concentration at the time. As part of the treaty ethnic Germans in the Soviet union were allowed/encouraged/forced to emigrate to the German annexed territories in Poland but little seems to have been done to either end the persecution of German political prisoners or to allow them to emigrate to the USSR.

I've also read that some German emigré commmies were actually handed over to Nazis. For Stalin, ends always justified the means. --Constanz - Talk 07:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
If I remember Montefiore correctly he points out that the communists Stalin handed over to Hitler in 1937 had a lower mortality rate than the ones Stalin kept. So the pact obviously did something for German communists. Prezen 17:28, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I've heard of the fact as well. have to look up sources.Constanz - Talk 17:35, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I have one example, the physicist Fritz Hautermans.:Dc76 22:19, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV Propaganda and Errors

Although officially labeled a "non-aggression treaty", the pact included a secret protocol, in which the independent countries of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Romania were divided into spheres of interest of the parties.

How is any of this relevant? The point of the non-aggression pact was that each Germany and USSR would not attack each other. USSR had signed agreements of such with countless other countries.

This is a blatant violation of NPOV. While Soviet-German non-aggression is depicted as some sort of secret menacing alliance, the non-aggression pact between Germany and Poland of 1934 was somehow something genuine when in fact Poland stole territory from Czechoslovakia.

How could a protocol possibly be secret when you are able to paraphrase the contents of it? This makes no sense.

The assertion that Romania was part of a sphere of influence is incorrect. This in fact pertained to the former Russian province Bessarabia which Romania seized in 1918. Romania as a whole was not part of the "secret protocl".

Kresy were characterized by the Kremlin as irredenta — "Western Ukraine" and "Western Belarus".

Huh? These territories in concern are an indisputable parts of the current republics of Ukraine and Belarus. These current Ukrainian and Byelorussian provinces were stolen by Poland and Lithuania first in the 14th century and then after the aggression during Russia's civil war.

The majority of the population of Eastern Second Polish Republic was non-Polish, just as majority of population of Western Soviet Union was non-Russian, since those areas were inhabited by ethnically Ukrainian and Belarusian majorities.

This is a comical comparison. The political entities of "Western Soviet Union" were distinctly Ukrainian SSR and Byelorussian SSR. It'd be pretty obvious that the inhabitants of these SSRs would be of the titular nationality. Otherwise, they would be simply be part of the Russian FSR.

This page is in drastic need of NPOV. Perhaps this would help:

Anna Louise Strong, "The Soviets Expected it"

"The nonaggression pact was not an alliance. The USSR did not sign with Hitler the type of mutual assistance pact she had offered to Britain and France. She signed a pact practically similar in form to the various nonaggression pacts she had been signing for fifteen years. It was not even mutually exclusive. It did not preclude the signing of similar pacts with Britain and France. Without violating the pact, the Soviet Union was free to oppose, even by armed force, a German attack on Turkey or Yugoslavia. She had agreed not to take part part in aggression against Germany, but had promised nothing about resisting an aggression the Nazis might start. We shall see that the Soviet Union actually did resist such aggressions without violating the pact...The USSR never became the "arsenal" for Germany in anything like the sense in which America, while still technically neutral, became the arsenal for Great Britain. America has even been the arsenal for Japan in her war against China to a far greater extent than the USSR ever was for Germany that could be classed as a war commodity was oil; the highest foreign guesses assume that the Soviets may possibly have sent as much as a million tons. America's supply of oil to Japan even under the government licensing system was more than three times as much."

Additionally, the non-aggression pact was little different from the Treaty of Berlin signed between USSR and Germany in 1926. There should be perspective on this.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/intdip/formulti/berlin_001.htm

Article 2:

Should one of the Contracting Parties, despite its peaceful attitude, be attacked by one or more third Powers, the other Contracting Party shall observe neutrality for the whole of the duration of the conflict.

Jacob Peters

[edit] Pact of Mutual Assistance with Poland

However, Chamberlain, who already on March 24 had, with France, guaranteed the sovereignty of Poland, now on April 25 signed a Pact of Mutual Assistance with Poland. Shouldn't this be reffering to the Polish-British Common Defence Pact of August 25 instead?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:09, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Second Secret Protocol

I don't recall seeing the maps the last time I visited here, kudos on those. They do point out a rather gaping ommission of the second secret protocol which, in fact, did give Lithuania to Stalin as well, quite closely aligning with the post-war results. (I see the banned "Jacob Peters" has come and gone here as well...)  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 15:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

That protocol, amending the protocol to M-R Pact, was attached to another Nazi-Soviet treaty, - German-Soviet Boundary and Friendship Treaty. It is mentioned under "Effects" section. So technically the map, titled "Planned division .. according to Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact" is still correct, although you, too, are right - including into map changes planned in the second treaty would complete the picture. Doc15071969 16:40, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] M-R vs. R-M

I see that the page name is Molotov-Ribbentrop and not the reverse. What's the rationale for this? Is there some definitive source that determined the order? -- Thanks, Deborahjay 16:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Probably just alphabetical when the pact is referred to (as it is, primarily) with Molotov's and Ribbentrop's names. While the reverse order looks to be in fair use (search engines), I can say that it does not appear in any published academic materials I have (primarily related to the Baltics, and a wide variety of both Baltic and non-Baltic sources, so Molotov-Ribbentrop is not a Balto-centric term). —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 17:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, a new (used) book came in the mail yesterday and it's the first source written by someone of Baltic background which uses the reverse (Ribbentrop-Molotov). "M-V" remains (by a vast margin) in the lead. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 20:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Further: Noting your consideration that local or regional usage might play a role in the determination, I note that the page in the German Wikipedia is called "German-Soviet" ("also Hitler-Stalin, also Molotov-Ribbentrop"), and in the Russian Wikipedia, "Molotov-Ribbentrop." My clarification actually pertains to the usage in Hebrew (whose Wikipedia page is titled "Ribbentrop-Molotov," contrary to alphabetical order), so I'll take the query over there. Thanks, Pēters, for your helpful input. -- Deborahjay 07:07, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

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