Talk:Modesty

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Can anyone tell me the difference between a kippah and a yarmulke? -- The Anome 16:24, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) There is no difference, apart from the fact that one is Modern Hebrew and the other is Yiddish. The word Yarmulke has been linked etymologically to the Hebrew phrase Yarei mei-Elokah (in awe of the Lord)Jfdwolff 23:47, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have removed this, as it seems to represent views that are idiosyncratic nonsense:

Some believe that female body modesty is the work of feminism to some extent, and some believe that it causes some of the same things that masculists believe feminism causes.

Eh? -- Anon.

The first External Link needs to balanced with a link to a site for the opposing POV. -- Anon. 2


Contents

[edit] Section removed to talk

Removed this text from the article:

==Safety hazards of modesty==
In many situations, modesty is wise, but there are some situations where modesty can cause harm, e.g. it has often been said that "people would rather die than take their clothes off in public". With the recent bioterror attacks, the ability of people to accept being stripped and washed down may result in the saving of many lives. It has therefore been suggested that work should be done to help society overcome problems with body image, in order to be better prepared for situations that might require disrobing in less than totally private situations.

This appears to me to be a rather strange paragraph. It takes a POV: "modesty is wise", and then another POV, "work should be done to help society overcome problems with body image, in order to be better prepared for situations that might require disrobing in less than totally private situations", which it intrroduces with the weasel words "It has therefore been suggested that". Who says that? When did they say it? Cite please? -- Karada 16:11, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "One meaning..."

The article seems to completly dodge the first mentioned modesty...

"One meaning is playing down or not mentioning one's own accomplishments, sometimes to the point of "false modesty", a form of boasting through excessive self-denigration.

The other meaning, also called body modesty, ..."

and takes up the rest of the page... Is this first meaning covered well enough by Humility? If so, should there not be a more obvious referal to it? Should I have just done the edit and not moaned about it here?

I moved the link to Humility to this small paragraph. You are welcome to expand on this meaning.--Patrick 09:16, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] recasting needed

The whole #Controversy section needs to be torn down and rewritten. It plays up a controversy that, I would wager, does not cross the minds of the majority of human beings who are perfectly happy with their cultural norm of modesty. It places the view of the "critics" front and center without giving any indication of who they are, whence they come, and how many they number. It ignores anthropological and zoological explanations for differing modesty norms (e.g. Desmond Morris's explanation that the habit of wearing clothing stems from the stance of human beings which, alone among the primates, puts the genitals on constant display). It does not touch on the effects of climate, nor on the correlation between norms of modesty and norms of sexuality. The "Western norm" is the only one described fully (and in a very general fashion, ignoring the real cultural variations between Western countries), while others are only mentioned in relation to that Western norm—and even then, vast areas and multitudes are simply passed over. History is non-existent; there is no discussion, even in the description of western norms, of how norms of modesty can vary over time.

I've listed this page on Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias open tasks in the hopes of attracting some badly-needed attention. —Charles P. (Mirv) 1 July 2005 18:35 (UTC)

[edit] Article should be split

Most of this page needs to be moved. While modesty of the body is a proper definition of modesty, it is a rather recent definition of the word, and applies mostly to a limited group. Most dictionaries say relatively little about this type of modesty. I believe it would be good to move the majority of the article to a separate page dedicated to the more limited concept of "body modesty". This would also make the main article more likely to be improved and expanded. --EthanL 17:38, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

On second thought, it might not be best to split it. There's not a whole lot can be said about modesty, unless it's the particular type of modesty which most of this article deals with. Upon searching for references to "body modesty", I find very little. Obviously it's not a common term, so there's no sense making an article by that name. Perhaps a few modifications to the article are in order, rather than a split. If nobody else steps forward, perhaps I can come up with some improvements. --EthanL 10:26, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

  • The entire article appears to be written by someone with an axe to grind. Then there is the curious addition of a very specific (and clearly pie-in-the-sky) paragraph about what Islamic modesty is supposedly about. I added my two pence worth which will hopefully speed its deletion by pointing out its absurdity. And where is the paragraph on the modesty of Zen-Buddhists? Wahkeenah 11:11, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] External links

There's a big ongoing discussion about the validity of including any links to fisheaters.com in Wikipedia. Seems the author of that site got a bit overzealous about putting up links to her own site. Now some people have taken to seemingly indescriminant removal of those links. I believe this one should remain, because of its relevance to the subject at hand. I restored it, without the second link to fisheaters, which was not as relevant. I'm not a follower of fisheaters nor am I even Catholic - I just think the link warrents inclusion here. If anybody disagrees, discuss it here - but be polite and to the point! EthanL 03:59, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

There is nothing indiscriminate about removing the Fisheaters links. See here for my findings on this. I am pruning the links on this article anyway per WP:EL and the arguments below. I do thikn that good links to demonstrably authoritative sites, especially for the contentious subject of modesty in Islam, would be an asset, but these seem to me to be mostly spam or POV pushing.

Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 11:10, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Links which illustrate various points of view are fine. Deleting all links is not helpful. You should be more selective in deleting, and perhaps also add some, if the set of links is unbalanced.--Patrick 11:58, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
The problem is, the more links there are, the more likely it is that myspace pages and other cruft will be added and not noticed. A few good links if fine, Wikilinks to articles discussing perspectives in detail is great, but dozens of links to external sites with restricted POVs really doesn't seeme to me to help at all. - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 13:26, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Rubbish links should be deleted. It is fairly easy to see which links are actually relevant. One needs to be weary of POV in external links. JFW | T@lk 13:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
POV in external links can be useful, for instance, to demonstrate a particular take on the matter, or as a reference to material in the article. Of course, in order to keep the article NPOV, you need to balance out the POV links by linking to opposing viewpoints. One should keep external links to a minimum, of course. EthanL 08:30, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Body Modesty

I did some searching on Google for references to Body Modesty. They were quite rare - rare enough to possibly qualify this as a neologism. Also, the vast majority of the top Google links were to copies of this article! In an attempt to make the article a bit more mainstream, I changed Body Modesty to Sexual Modesty, which has a much wider acceptance, at least according to Google. This term seems to describe things just as well, if not better. Any opinions? EthanL 09:46, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Yes. My opinion is that the entire article is a point-of-view push and should be deleted. Wahkeenah 12:40, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
True, it does contain POV material, but wouldn't it be better to clean it up rather than delete it? I'm working on it as I'm able, but I don't always have much time. Contributions are always welcome! EthanL 03:01, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I won't weasel out by saying I don't have time. I'll just say it's not worth the time and effort. This article is the work of somebody who thinks modesty is bad. Plain and simple. There's no getting around it. Wahkeenah 12:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
It seems better to distinguish an inclination to cover the skin from an analysis regarding the possible sexual background of this inclination, and/or an inclination not to exhibit sexual behavior. For example, a nudist may avoid showing affection, and on the other hand a couple in love may show much affection in public but fully clothed.--Patrick 01:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
In other words, it's situational. Wahkeenah 12:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Islam & Modesty

The entire presentation of Islam & modesty is so wrong as to merit deletion. There are no sources cited, e.g. that the death penalty applied under Taliban rule (incorrect), or that "most" Muslims interpret the religion to imply that a women can only expose their hands and face (incorrect, salafist), and so on. The situation has many aspects, e.g. is "most" counted by Mullahs, national dress codes, or followers? Does Iqbal, the primary theological scholar responsible for the founding of Pakistan, have the same weight as al-taribrizi or al-banna? Do the 1 billion Muslims outside the M-E count? Furthermore, in Iran, the only real islamic theocracy, it is normal to see women who e.g. breastfeed, while this is not usual or traditional in N.America (West) -- no context is given in article, in particular wrt public vs. non-mahram vs. private. Furthermore, the article states Modesty describes a set of culturally determined values, then goes on to describe religions (Islam, Judaism) that exist in practically every culture on Earth. Modesty is neither a purely religious nor cultural value, and religion does not equal culture. Lastly, the entire article has a nihilistic western secular rationalist bent to it.

Is there anyone actually living in the islamic world that wishes to comment? 24.86.203.199 09:42, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you could help out - you're welcome to contribute, just so long as you provide source references. The whole article needs attention, as your comment makes clear. You might just be the one to provide that much needed attention. EthanL 03:16, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from Talk_talk:Modesty

I find it odd that Orthodox Jewish opinion concerning a yarmulka is not about modesty, when, in fact, the Jewish code of Law (shulchan Orach Harav 2:6) clearly states that a head covering is due to tznieus. (comment by user:Mordechai7215)

  • I don't know why that is even mentioned in the article. I don't know what the word "tznieus" means, let alone how to say it, but as far as I know the yarmulka has to do with "humbling oneself before God", not anything to do with modesty whatsoever. Modesty has to do with humans interacting with each other, not about humans interacting with God. Wahkeenah 15:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
He meant צניעות - Churchh 17:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eurocentrism

This article is highly Eurocentric, esp. in reguard to the headings. It should probably be rewritten to remone this bias.12.17.189.77 03:00, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

  • What's stopping you from doing it? (Although you might want to proofread your work). Wahkeenah 05:38, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wearing more than the Western norm section

The section on "Wearing more than the Western norm" has some problems with the way Islamic modesty is addressed (as already mentioned on this talk page). As such I added a dispute tag. Also the discussion of Catholic and Mormon modesty was somewhat inaccurate. The Catholic paragraph seems to imply, when it says "Catholics, especially women, must dress modestly", that their is some international law that applies to specifically Catholics regarding modesty. I corrected it to make it clear what we are really talking about is the Catholic church's teachings on modesty. The sentence on Mormon modesty gave the misleading impression that all Mormons adhere to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints modesty code. I corrected it so that it states that the church has a modesty code but not to incorrectly imply that no Mormon ever violates it. --Cab88 17:43, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Instead of flagging it and expecting someone else to fix what you have a problem with, why don't you fix it? Wahkeenah 18:35, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coherence of article

I think the problems flagged up on "Eurocentricism" and the wider coverage of some religious / cultural perspectives is because the article collates a number of different views which do not warrant a whole separate page. I thought the section on Islam was very limited at first, but that is because there is a whole load of other stuff on Wikipedia on the hijab / naqib (btw I altered some of this section as it referred to the burqa which is in fact a specific name for the garment worn in Afghanistan), whereas Catholic modesty seems to have been given a great deal of coverage (excuse the pun) here. There does seem to be a rather vocal fisheaters contingent, which makes for rather disjointed paragraphs - "Some say this. Others say this. However, some yet say this". I did not delete any of it because it is technically all valid; the point I'm making is that the the whole basis of the article lacks a certain coherence. --SianMycock 00:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Heavy Reorganization

I've tried to address some of the repeated concerns of various posters about Eurocentrism. The complaint seemed well-founded and ought to have been fixed, and since those expressing concern did not fix it, I made the attempt.

I first categorized what was formerly titled something along the lines of "Western Norms" as norms generally accepted in most of the world. I think this is a just characterization; those general outlines of behavior seem to me (from my experience, anyway) to be fairly widespread, and one appearing in this way would be acceptable in most parts of the world.

I then outlined some of the prominent exceptions to the rules, including Australian and aboriginal Australian cultures, Muslims, Jews, and Catholics. These were made subsections under the "religious and cultural differences" section.

I wasn't sure what to do with the brief mentions of the Amish, Sikhs, and Mormons. I finally decided that the information was so sparse and added so little to the article that they should be simply removed. What had been there told us practically nothing about them and only linked to the Wikipedia article about the group in general, which is interesting but not really topical. So I took them out. I would certainly be interested in seeing all of these groups, and more besides, added in, but what was there simply wasn't helpful and I know little or nothing about any of them myself, at least in regards to modesty. I'd encourage anyone who does know about them to add them back in.

If anyone thinks this judgment was in error, please add them back in. I won't make a fuss about it.

I thought about beefing up the Islamic section, but as another talker has pointed out, the wikilinks in that section seem to pretty much cover the whole ground.

Dgoodmaniii 05:29, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


I added a bit about some previously widely practiced Jewish practices of modesty that somehow few are aware of these days. Unfortantely I don't know how to properly put in references... so, in case someone wants to help.. here are a some more references:

Mishneh Torah - Hilkhoth Ishuth 24:11

"These are the matters that if she did one of them, she transgressed the 'faith of Moses:'

She went out in the shuq [marketplace] and the hair of her head was exposed,.."


Mishneh Torah in Sefer Nashim in Hilkhoth Ishuth 24:12

"...What is meant by 'the Jewish faith?' It is the practice of modesty that the 'Daughters of Israel' are accustomed to. And these are the things that if she does one of them, she transgresses the 'Jewish religion:'

She goes out to the marketplace or to a passage way with openings at each end while her head is uncovered and without a reh'dheedh [long descending veil / cloth-material] on her as all the women, even though her hair is covered in a scarf / handkerchief,

Or that she was spinning [fabric] in the market and [there is a] rose or something similar on her face, on her forehead, or on her cheek, as is the way the immodest idolatrous women do,

Or that spins [fabric] in the shuq [marketplace] and shows her forearms to people.."

Halakha 13 of chapter 12:

"Azra made an edict that a woman / wife (same word in Hebrew) should always have a belt in [her] see'nar (britches) while in her house, because of modesty. And if she didn't put on a belt, she has not transgressed the 'faith of Mosha,' and she does not relinquish her kethubah."

There are many more references, though I do not have the specific locations memorized off hand. I'll try to post them soon.

Omedyashar 22:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Update on references: OLAMOT SHEL TOHAR (Worlds of PURITY)

__________________________________________________

THE JEWISH WOMAN IN RABBINIC LITERATURE A Psychosocial Perspective by Rabbi Dr. Menachem M. Brayer (Professor of Biblical Literature at Yeshiva University) (Hoboken, N.J: Ktav Publishing House, 1986) p. 239., 77, pp. 316-317. Also see Swidler, op. cit., pp. 121-123., p. 139.

__________________________________________________

Page Shin Lamed in Mori Qafehh's edition of Mishneh Torah with commentary, Sefer Qedusha - Isurei Biah chapter 21 halakha 17:

(Note Kaf Hhet) Tractate Ketuvoth page Ayin Bet - alef. From what is taught/learned in the school/yeshiva of Ribi Yishmael there is a warning to the daughters of Israel, that they shouldn't go out with their head uncovered. Our teacher (Rabeinu [Rambam]) learned/taught [from this]: 'whether one available/unmarried or married.' Therefore he made no distinction between an older woman or a little girl; And [quf resh mem] Qriat Melekh. (Rav Shin YudHet Qaniveski) wrote regarding the 'available/unmarried one' in NUN SHIN ALAF in Sefreh siman Yud Alaf, -- [** writes] that it is like this [mashmA ken]] I found a proof from Tamar, that she was a pnuyah (available/unmarried); And look into Tractate Nedarim page Lamed - bet: "and minors (qatanim) forever [should]...etc.."; And [look into] Tosafot there [on this Gemara]; and look into Tractate Eruvin page Quf - bet: "wrapped up like a mourner;" What is it [maihu] TzadiAyin ( ???) in Mishna Ketuboth Tet Vav - bet, "...and her head is uncovered, (until here/ahd kan - ayinkaf) -- and it's a difficulty for this [idea?] (qasha leh) according to Rashi concerning "uncovered hair upon her shoulders from her father's house to her grooms house;" However, there is no conclusive proof to this / can't draw a conclusion from this, and it could be that she goes out from the courtyard of her house for only one small hour for some ceremony like it was the custom in Yemen [among the Jews?], and as I describe in my book Halikhoth Teimon page 134. vav lamed quf mem.

_____________________________________________ In the photo section of Mori Yosef Qafehh's book Halikhot Teimon one sees how Yemenite Jewish women of the area of Sa'ana dressed in private and in public. They wore a radheedh in public which they would pull over their face leaving their eyes exposed, when they would encounter a man with whom they were unfamiliar. The style of Jewish women's hair/head-covering in Yemen was very clearly distinct from the style of the muslim women. The Jewish women of Sa'ana area placed the radheedh on top of the gargoush - a hood type haircovering which was slightly coned at the top.

There is a book in English called "The Yemenites: 2,000 years of Jewish History," with photos showing how Jewish women of other regions in Yemen dressed/dress.

________________________________________

Israel & Ishmael ( Studies in Muslim - Jewish Relations) Edited by Tudor Parfitt in chapter titled "Cover Her Face:" Jewish Women & Veiling in Islaamic Civilisation by Yedida K. Stillman pages 13 - 29 [also includes a chapter on the Hemerayit Kingdom of Yemen]

Pictures of female Jewish dress (references learned from the above book):

Jewish woman in Smyrna, Turky in late 1700's/early 1800's; painting of Jewish woman indoors -- hair covered face exposed/ outdoors -- only eyes exposed; From "A History of Jewish Costume, 1973, page 42; A. Rubens.

Actual photo of Jewish woman in Baghdad, Iraq wearing a radheedh which the Jews there called khiliy and the Muslims called pica -- from "Album of Jewry of Iraq," A. Twena Ramla, 1981 p.171

Actual photo of a group of several Jewish women from Tunis, Tunisia in early 20th century visiting a cemetary, all but one wearing traditional dress - consists of a large radheedh called 'tantar,' which sits on top of a cone type hat the women wear underneath it; The radheedh practically covers them entirely; from Robert Attal. [Here is a similar and clearly related photo I found online: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/pages/J12I276T.jpg ]

Actual photo of Jewish Berber woman from Tafilatt/lt?, Morocco wearing radheedh; Jean Besancenot Collection.

Actual photo: Rabat - Les mellahs de Rabat - Sale', Paris 1927; J. Goulven. Omedyashar 19:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

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