Talk:Mobutu Sese Seko

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[edit] Which name is it anyway

Since we now have two versions of his name in the article and a third in an external link that I just inserted, I thought I'd do the Google test to see which is most popular, I have not done any changes to the article though, since I find them all quite probable. I think a source directlz discussing the issue is needed. Here goes:

Using Google, no filters, with/without/ "duplicates" (as detected by Google)/Google groups with/Google groups without|same but not using "-wikipedia":

  1. "Mobutu Sese Seko Koko Ngbendu Wa Za Banga" -wikipedia: 107/29/3/2|366/35/3/2: This is the form used by Britannica.com.
  2. "Mobutu Sese Seko Nkuku wa za Banga" -wikipedia: 76/19/0/0|96/24/0/0: This is the form we currently use, almost looks like its introduced by us. Google suggest that the correct spelling is the one in the next.
  3. "Mobutu Sese Seko Kuku Ngbendu wa za Banga" -wikipedia: 456/145/32/18|599/124/32/18: As you can see, this is the Google winner. It is also the form used by MSN Encarta and the last weblink that I added. My favourite. --Dittaeva 22:20, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)


I don't know if it's even worth mentioning but this article got mentioned by the Zaire Businessman Scam email. One of the older scams, and certainly one of the dumbest. Thought you might find that amusing here.

[edit] United States

I think it would be important to add a few words about the fact that he was backed by the United States.65.95.83.10

I added something at the end of the kleptocracy paragraph because that's where I thought it fit the most. Maybe a new paragragh could be written though, about Mobutu's importance to the West in Africa during the Cold War. Red Star


This is Red Star again, somebody added a paragraph entitled "US government likes him", which of course sounded quite silly. I moved some of the info to Military coup, while adding the bit about the Belgians, but I'd like to see the source for his friendship with Pat Robertson. It could be added to Robertson's article too. In the meantime I put the sentence in the Early Years, I don't see where else it could belong. Red Star September 10 2005

[edit] Requested move

The reasons for move copied from the entry on the WP:RM page:

--Francis Schonken 08:38, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
  • Support move, see below for reasons. --Francis Schonken 08:51, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. If the French wiki doesn't use acutes, then why does the English wiki. – AxSkov (☏) 09:39, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. The books i own use Mobutu Sese Seko. --POY 15:09, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. Dragons flight 00:14, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

Appears that in French it is written thus: fr:Mobutu Sese Seko (even if that would be the way to approach it, which it is not currently). That English wikipedia is incorrect follows even more from Google search which turns out 256 instances of the Sésé variant; 171000 for the Sese variant (for English pages, excluding wikipedia from the search). Another example of wikipedians trying to "make" reality, instead of recording it. --Francis Schonken 08:51, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Why is the French usage relevant? Sese Seko is obviously not a French name. There's nothing wrong with the anglicized form. Even the Lingala dictionary (Kawata Ashem Tem), with fancy academic spelling, uses the spelling Mobutu Sese Seko. ---moyogo 08:13, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The legacy part of this article is biased, because it only gives the positive side and not the negative side like how many people were killed, how tyranical his rule was and other stuff.

[edit] Too little information

"The rumble in the jungle" legendary Ali vs Foreman fight is missing (which he used to clean his image), plus more information on his crimes, all of that is missing from this very short page.

[edit] Overthrow

I am not sure the argument that Tutsis were opposed to Mobutu due to his support of Rwandan extremists, is valid. Tusis were angered with him because he had let the National Conference withdraw collectively the citizenship of all Tutsi Congolese people, on charges of double-citizenship (which was - and still is - illegal in the country) with Rwanda. They were fighting for their citizenship rights. And the very opportunistic Kagame used their grievances as an excuse to invade the country, and attempt - he failed miserably by the way - to deal with the Hutu extremists and interahamwe. Hence the First Congo War. Themalau 22:26, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Military position pre-1965

Right now the article says, "Following the granting of independence on June 30, 1960, he joined the new government as Secretary of the State for Defense. The new government was a coalition between Prime Minister Patrice Lumumba and President Joseph Kasavubu, both of whom soon started to struggle for overall power - both attempting to dismiss the other from government with Kasavubu ultimately proving successful. On September 14, 1960 a coup d'état overthrew Lumumba in support of the President. Colonel Mobutu was a key figure in the coup and was significantly rewarded for this work."

Mobutu was definitely a colonel at the time, but was his formal position "secretary of state for defense"? Other sources I have read say that he was chief of staff of the army. In the francophone world, "Secrétaire d'État" is a sub-ministerial position. The Secrétaire d'État does not participate in general cabinet discussions unless his portfolio is being discussed.

Also, the follow passage in the article makes no sense: In 1965, now Lieutenant-General Mobutu seized power from President Kasavubu, following another power struggle between Kasavubu and his prime minister Moise Tshombe. The CIA and the Belgians were actively working in the country to support Mobutu and get rid of Lumumba (whom they regarded as too pro-Soviet) because they felt Mobutu would be a better ally in the Cold War."

By the time of the 1965, Lumumba had been dead for 4 years. There was no need to be rid of him in 1965; they had done that in 1961." I will change that. -- Poldy Bloom 20:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Follow-up
As noted above, there is some disagreement in the reference literature over which office Mobutu held. MSN Encarta, "Mobutu Sese Seko," section: "Early Life and Career" describes him as chief of staff of the army, as does the Library of Congress, Federal Research Division, A Country Study: Zaire (Former), Chapter 1, "Historical Setting," section: "The Mutiny of the Force Publique," by René Lemarchand, and Guy Arnold, Africa: A Modern History (London: Atlantic Books, 2005), p. 23. Encyclopedia Britannica, on-line edition, "Mobutu Sese Seko," states he was secretary of state for national defense.

I am going to change the Wikipedia article to reflect the Library of Congress guide. -- Poldy Bloom 05:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

There is no explanation of how he went from sergeant to colonel. How he got to be colonel would be interesting as the article states he left the army as sergeant. Can anyone help?

After Lumumba "Africanized" the officer corps following the riots early in his rule, he promoted each officer by one rank. I don't know if colonel follows sergeant, but that's one possible explanation. Josh 00:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translation

I read a book about Kongo and Mobutu and the translation of his name was given as "The cock that leaves no hen unruffled", I can't belive this but there is simply always a chance that something is wrong! Ghislain C. Kabwit (1979). "Zaire: The Roots of the Continuing Crisis". The Journal of Modern African Studies 17 (3): 381-407.  states the same.

Gertrude D. M. Mianda (1995). "Dans l'ombre de la "démocratie" au Zaïre: La remise en question de l'émancipation Mobutiste de la femme". Canadian Journal of African Studies / Revue Canadienne des Études Africaines 29 (1): 51-78.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.76.234.75 (talk • contribs) 23 October 2006.

That's the Tshiluba translation of his name. The Ngbandi translation is the one stated in the article. Both are correct. Josh 00:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that "The cock who leaves no hen untouched", is the literal meaning (kuku does mean rooster in the bantu languages I know) whereas the metaphorical meaning is "The all-powerful warrior who, because of his endurance and inflexible will to win, will go from conquest to conquest, leaving fire in his wake". The latter seems a bit extravagant, but then, Mobutu was extravagant. --Ezeu 00:30, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

I don't know how to revert a page, so someone else will have to do so, but someone called 62.253.192.92 has twice put in nonsense words. Lindsay H. 14:48, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted the vandalism. See Help:Reverting for how to do it. --Ezeu 16:00, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Seventeen children

Source: In the Footsteps of Mr. Kurtz. I'll check the page number next time I'm at the library.

[edit] President For Life

How was he "unsuccessful" in annointing himself "President For Life?"
I know that the claim is footnoted, but I haven't been able to find anything online verifying it.
Can someone post an excerpt from the book where the event is described? Ruthfulbarbarity 15:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Sure thing.

From The Rise and Decline of the Zairian State, p. 211: "It is widely believed that Mobutu's attempt to have himself named Life President in 1972 foundered when former Political Bureau member Kasongo Nyembo, a major chief of the Shaba Luba, remarked that "not even the Emperor of the Luba serves for life."

Josh 01:45, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I would like to add that while Mobutu was in essence a de facto Life President, he was never a de jure one, though he would have liked to be one.Josh 01:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Does anybody know if Mobutu's famous leopardskin toque was actually derived from some sort of traditional African headgear, or was it merely an Africanized version of a British Army "garryowen", which it resembles in shape. -Ken Burch

[edit] Name translation

How does his eight-word self-given name possibly translate to forty-one words in English? I suppose we could reduce it (to "Allpowerfulwarrior hisendurance dominatingwillofvictory winscontinually destroyseverything arisesfromblood ashes hisenemies likethesun nightconquerer", which would be a super-basic version of "The all-powerful warrior who, because of his endurance and inflexible will to win, goes from conquest to conquest, leaving fire in his wake and arising from the blood and ashes of his enemies like the Sun which conquers the night". I'm rather doubtful that whatever African language this is would have terms as so detailed to approximate ideas such as "arises-from-blood", but I don't know. At any rise, I can't imagine how this could be cut down to less than ten words. Nyttend 21:20, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Where did that name come from anyway? Because the reference gives a much shorter (plausible) name in french and casts some doubt on the english translation. The article should reflect that he invented/created/interpreted the translation into english. Are we doing some puffery by proxy? My native is Portuguese and like i know that translations into english usually need extra words to convey the proper meaning...but 5 times more?Galf 20:44, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The literal translation is easy, it means "The rooster who leaves no hen untouched". It is the metaphorical meaning that is tricky. --Ezeu 20:53, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
So what's tricky about that one? et pluribus unnum means the exact same thing....the most powerful around, the supreme kahuna. To go from there to a tale of blood and conquest sounds to me more like someone got a little carried away trying to give the (supposedly) ignorant westerners something to print. Notice how the French translation in the source given is....shorter. So my proposal is we give the direct translation, preferably with a good source and then we add that he claimed that his name meant the bloody tale of conquest. It's balanced and the reader can decide if african names have deeper meanings (5 times deeper) or if he just enjoyed a little self praise.Galf 21:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The Time had an article in 1972 about zairization (zairianization) of names [1]:

The President, as it happens, had that thought in mind. Last week he announced that he was considering renaming himself Sese-Seko-Kuku-Ngbendu-Wa-Za-Banga Mobutu, which means, roughly, the hot-blooded warrior and man of the soil who cannot know defeat because of his endurance and his inflexible will to win and who belongs to all Zaïre. Later, though, he mercifully decided to make it simply Mobutu-Sese-Seko.

(emphasis added by me) --moyogo 22:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC) Seriously though, the translation currently given in the article is a joke. ---moyogo 23:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

A recent article from the Daily Nation [2] says:

Ngbendu Wazabanga. Literally translated as "hot pepper", "green," and "it stings". Kuku ngbendu wazabanga is an Ngbandi proverb whose translation could mean: "Even if it is not ripe, hot pepper stings"

So whatever else roughly translated is very figurative. The long translations try to state every possible meaning. --moyogo 23:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

My knowledge of African languages lags seriously...that is to say that I speak only Portuguese. However, my previous point still stands, was this just a translation for "ignorant westerners"? I'd like to point out that even the supposed proper name for the country, Zaire is in fact a Portuguese corruption of another African word, Nzere (river). And my question again, is there any substantiation to the name given in english other than the one given by Mobuto himself?
On the river name, I could translate Nzadi o Nzere (the Congo) as "river of rivers", "river that swallows other rivers" (as given in the zaire article) or "most powerful and great river that swallows all other tiny rivers that are no match to it and that feeds all the land of Congo around it" but that would just be creativity on my part, not translation. It sounds better though :-) BTW, the proverb: "Malaguetas verdes também picam", in Portuguese just needs one more word Galf 23:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
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