From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following to the template call: <!-- 1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points are appropriately cited. --> |B-Class-1=yes/no <!-- 2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes/no <!-- 3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes/no <!-- 4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes/no <!-- 5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes/no Related task forces (general topics): Military aviation task force Related task forces (nations and regions): Japanese military history task force Related task forces (periods and conflicts): World War II task force

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Aviation, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles related to aviation. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.	Aviation Portal
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale. (comments)
Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following to the template call: <!-- 1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points are appropriately cited. --> |B-Class-1=yes/no <!-- 2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes/no <!-- 3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes/no <!-- 4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes/no <!-- 5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes/no Related WikiProjects and/or task forces: Aircraft WikiProject

Mitsubishi J8M is part of WikiProject Japan, a project to improve all Japan-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other Japan-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.

Japan To-do: edit purge Improve to Featured status Japan Improve ASIMO Burakumin and Buraku Liberation League Takako Doi Chikamatsu Monzaemon Education in Japan Japanese architecture Japanese art Japanese robotics Japanese strategic planning for the Pacific (1905-1940) List of Emperors of Japan (transl. from ja) Emperor Yozei of Japan List of Japanese artists Namioka, Aomori Nihonjinron Sadako Ogata Ōishi Yoshio Politics of Japan Yagyu Shinkage-ryu Center Shiken (大学入試センター試験) More... Review First Sino-Japanese War Hinduism in Japan Inland Sea Kigo Narihira Santosen Temple Sazae-san Stroke order Heizo Takenaka Giovanni Battista Sidotti Requests See Requested articles Listed for deletion See this page, this page, and this page for lists. Grammar corrections Gaijin Takefuji Need images Every prefecture, see Subdivisions of Japan Sendai - Add demographic images More... Translate from Japanese Wikipedia Iemoto (家元) Blue Ribbon Award (Film) (ブルーリボン賞 (映画)) Gesaku (ja:戯作) More... Transliterations missing for Military ranks and insignia of the Japan Self-Defense Forces Wikify Ibaraki University Ikawa, Shizuoka Ima, Ai ni Yukimasu Japanese sculpture Mori Goro Organization of the Imperial Japanese Central China Army Organization of the Imperial Japanese North China Army Sangaria Shaken Takefuji Vote: Talk:Dokdo#Rename vote Watch this list — Edit this list

[edit] Sword Stroke

"Every published reference gives Shusui as "'sword stroke'".

The fact is, "shuusui" (秋水) in Japanese literally means "autumn water". And you don't even need to know any Japanese to see that -- the two other models derived from the J8M share the first ideogram, and they are translated as "autumn grass" and "autumn fire". Nor does "sword stroke" fit at all into the naming conventions of WWII Japanese aircraft.

I was able to find a Japanese reference explaining the issue.

http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~FlyWing/JapaneseTaillessPlane/Shusui.html

"Shuusui" is also a poetic metaphor for "a sharpened sword". Still poetic, but a bit more literally, it refers to "settled autumn water". The (mis)translation as "sword stroke" probably originated from Robert C. Mikesh, though the above page states that Mikesh understood it to mean "settled water".

So the issue is, should Wikipedia try to correct this historical error? I'd like to have this entry translate "Shusui" literally as "autumn water", followed by "sword stroke" as a common translation in English-language references, and then we can expound on that if we have to. - - Paul Richter 07:39, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that it is a mistake. Given that "autumn water" is (uncontestably) the more literal translation, I wonder then what would have led Mikesh to have chosen and published the more poetic version? He was not noted for being sloppy in his research.

I think that "Sword stroke"/"sharpened sword" fits in well with late-war naming of Japanese aircraft - look at the poetic rationale behind the names of the Ohka and "Kikka" (Kitsuka). I can easily imagine that the name was meant to evoke images of the aircraft being as quick and deadly as a sword stroke - but this is purely speculation on my part of course!

Given that the translation has stood unchallenged for decades, I'm suggesting leaving it, but including a note as to its alternate, literal meaning. I think this fits better with the Wikipedia principle of not being a place for original research.

Any ideas for who/where we could refer the question to for greater insight? --Rlandmann 08:36, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Going with "sword stroke" and the explanation seems all right to me. Though it still feels kinda like saying the F-15 is named after a 2-under-par golf stroke... oh well.

Attributing the translation to Mikesh is speculation on my part, and "sword stroke" is somewhat less than "widely recognized", but those are all minor.

I'm going to dig in to the matter a little more at the public libraries here in Tokyo. I'll let you know if I find anything good! - - Paul Richter 09:29, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sorry - I thought that you took the Mikesh attribution from the website that you referenced? - I'll remove it. Anything concrete you can turn up on the metaphor would be appreciated! The comment that it is widely recognised is based on the fact that it's at least well-known enough to show up in free on-line dictionaries...

Names are funny things, often more than the sum of their parts. A counter-example to your F-15 analogy above would be insisting on translating "UH-60 Blackhawk" into Italian as "UH-60 Falconero". --Rlandmann 14:23, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This doesn't really help, but my dictionary translates 三尺の秋水 (sanshaku no shuusui) as "an icy three-foot steel" (!) --Auximines 14:25, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Can I throw in a compromise suggestion? I've seen it translated "rigorous sword", which suggests the objective. That the doesn't fit existing naming systems may be explained by her being jet-propelled. (I've no source to support that...)

On the spex: can we del the repeats? They don't change. What about a "master spec", with variants indicated? (Also, I'm changing the cannon/MG # pos; as is, it suggests an "X2/X3" type #...) Can somebody clarify where the guns were mounted? Given IJN/A practise, I'd guess wings, but...

And while I'm at it, can somebody translate Shuka? Trekphiler 22:52, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

It's quite posible that 秋水 makes refference to the tale about testing Masamune's sword in the stream during autumn. Perhaps a literal translation, and a footnote would be in order. --Yorinaga 05:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree Yorinaga. "秋水" has its origin in Chinese word 秋水 (qiu shui) or 秋水盈盈 (qiu shui ying ying), meaning "clear autumn water". Also, the word was used to express pureness and cleanness. Later its usage was expanded to "pure heart", "clear reflection of a sword", "pure eye of a woman", and Japanese language adopted the expanded usages, too.
Literal trancelation only does not show the idea of pureness and cleanness.
"Sword Stroke" is a mistrancelation.I310342 23:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)I310342

[edit] Materials

The cited reference describes the process by which materials were provided by Germany and transported to Japan. There is no mention of any sample aircraft or engines, so I've removed it from the article. -- Paul Richter 03:57, 5 January 2006 (UTC)