Talk:Mithraism
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[edit] non-scholarly essays? Why?
Why would anyone want a list of non-scholarly essays? What's the point of this section? Zeusnoos 21:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
- Because otherwise the weenies would bespatter the list of real material with this crap. The section exists merely to keep the rubbish out of the way. Roger Pearse 16:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I haven't heard that word in some time. Why should Mithraism be treated so special in wikiland that it caters to agendas? Other articles related to religion, beliefs, philosophy, and science are constantly battling this sort of thing rather than giving in. The section should be deleted since reliable sources is supposed to be the rule. Zeusnoos 17:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
(( Newly found archaeological evidence in iran is supporting this story. This is very recent as they have only discovered it this month and will be continuing research for another year before any statements are released. )) - DEC 26 2006
- If that is the case, then any notions that Mithraism started in Persia should be removed from the article since it violates wikipedia's Original Research policy. The evidence claims have not be scrutinized by Mithraic scholars yet. Zeusnoos 17:36, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Persian origin
This article (Mithraism) refers to the article Mithra when saying that the Persian origin of Mithraism is uncertain. Looking at Mithra, in turn, one is referred again to this article! I think this should be corrected. Moreover, I have seen recent scholarly books which claimed with near certainty that Mithraism is of Iranian (but not necessarily of Zoroastrian) origin. see here. Shervink 10:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)shervink
[edit] Wow
I just starting reading this from the beginning, and it is insanely out of touch with scholarship. Beck is given a nominal mention on only a specific point, and anyone else after Cumont is absent. Where is Lease, Gordon, Martin, Betz, and Griffiths to name a few? This business of tagging unsupported statements with [citation] is too mild a measure for poorly supported claims. Zeusnoos 18:07, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- I clearly agree. This article is in serious need of attention, and verification of content is a primary point of attention. If, as I can conclude from your statement above, you have more than a passing knowledge of the subject, please either perform the changes you deem necessary yourself, or, if you so desire, contact me regarding the points that you would add or subtract in the article. I acknowledge that my own knowledge of the subject is some years old, and that I might not be able to attend to it immediately, but will try to within the next week or so. Badbilltucker 18:54, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
- I studied this a few years ago, and have not yet read Beck's new book, though I've heard his essay collection from 2004 is better. Unfortunately, the free time I thought I would have until mid-January has been taking away, and I can't contribute much myself. The main problem with the article is the conflation (perhaps intentional by some editors) of Persian/Zoroastrian god Mithra and the Roman catacombic practice of the Mithraic mystery cult. Scholars are in agreement, as are the ancient sources (that's another issue) that the Romans borrowed the name of Mithra and some Persian-related items (the cap, the grade called "the Persian" etc) in the creation of this syncretic cult. It gives it an exotic veneer. But the issue of origins is another matter - as the cult was practiced, the Mithraeams (sp?) show 1st century bc or ad origin. To say that it has a Persian origins is incorrect (as of to date) for it implies a continuity, whereas the whole thing about the rock, the wheat growing out of the wound, the 7 grades, the cave, the raven, persian, bridegroom, etc, is not only lacking Persian evidence, and is likely created, yes, created and orchestrated, by a Roman dignitary. Every scholar of antiquity knows that ancient sources that claim origins must be treated cautiously. Esp. because oftentimes origins were made up or sought after (either Persian, "Chaldaean" or Egyptian) to give an idea a sense of venerability and authority. Because Mithra was known in late antiquity to be a Persian god, and because the Mithraic cult itself wished to portray itself as Persian, the literary sources sometimes say it is Persian. Zeusnoos 21:44, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
- Basically, that agrees with what I know of the (now archaic?) statements from the Scientic American article whose age I hesitate to mention because it would date myself. However, as I remember even in the myth as stated in that article, the origin myth as presented in that article specifically stated that Mithras was not in fact the true name of the "god" being venerated, and that his real name was being hidden. If that statement is still held valid, then the Roman Mithras is clearly a separate entity entirely. (As I remember, it's supposed by them to be the god of the constellation Perseus, although that might have changed in recent edits.) Badbilltucker 21:56, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
- The identity of Mithras is not necessarily a god, but it need not not be a god :). We simply don't know for sure whether he is a god or not. However, in polemic sources such as Celsus and Firmicus, he is treated as either a god or a masculine aspect of god. Ulansey is the source that Mithras is to be identified with Perseus (because of the cap Perseus wears in later constellation representations that suggest a relation between the name "Perseus" with Persia). Zeusnoos 22:09, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
- Basically, that agrees with what I know of the (now archaic?) statements from the Scientic American article whose age I hesitate to mention because it would date myself. However, as I remember even in the myth as stated in that article, the origin myth as presented in that article specifically stated that Mithras was not in fact the true name of the "god" being venerated, and that his real name was being hidden. If that statement is still held valid, then the Roman Mithras is clearly a separate entity entirely. (As I remember, it's supposed by them to be the god of the constellation Perseus, although that might have changed in recent edits.) Badbilltucker 21:56, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
- I studied this a few years ago, and have not yet read Beck's new book, though I've heard his essay collection from 2004 is better. Unfortunately, the free time I thought I would have until mid-January has been taking away, and I can't contribute much myself. The main problem with the article is the conflation (perhaps intentional by some editors) of Persian/Zoroastrian god Mithra and the Roman catacombic practice of the Mithraic mystery cult. Scholars are in agreement, as are the ancient sources (that's another issue) that the Romans borrowed the name of Mithra and some Persian-related items (the cap, the grade called "the Persian" etc) in the creation of this syncretic cult. It gives it an exotic veneer. But the issue of origins is another matter - as the cult was practiced, the Mithraeams (sp?) show 1st century bc or ad origin. To say that it has a Persian origins is incorrect (as of to date) for it implies a continuity, whereas the whole thing about the rock, the wheat growing out of the wound, the 7 grades, the cave, the raven, persian, bridegroom, etc, is not only lacking Persian evidence, and is likely created, yes, created and orchestrated, by a Roman dignitary. Every scholar of antiquity knows that ancient sources that claim origins must be treated cautiously. Esp. because oftentimes origins were made up or sought after (either Persian, "Chaldaean" or Egyptian) to give an idea a sense of venerability and authority. Because Mithra was known in late antiquity to be a Persian god, and because the Mithraic cult itself wished to portray itself as Persian, the literary sources sometimes say it is Persian. Zeusnoos 21:44, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Wow, what are the chances that one of the above writers is a Christian and another, a Muslim? Each can source his point of view with centuries-old documentation, I am sure. Please don't confound an article on religion with an agenda borne of the current geopolitical East/West situation. 19:28, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
- First of all, suppose this argument is between a Christian and Muslim, both motivated by their religion to slant evidence in a particular way. Why would a Muslim be interested in the 'origin' of a Roman mystery cult? What value does that contribute to Islam? Likewise, why would a Christian (one again motivated by Christianness of some sort) care whether a Roman cult long extinct originated in Persia or not? On the other hand, if someone wishes that this Roman mystery cult (of which there is archaelogical and textual evidence in the Roman empire) be of Persian origin and continuing a Persian tradition into late antiquity, doesn't this sound more like a matter of national pride rather than religion? Such as pride of being Iranian? Or better yet, of being of Persian identity in Iran? Zeusnoos 21:44, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I have to say i agree with the trend that the discussion between zeusnoos and badbill seems to be taking in the correct way to interpret mithras, as essentially a roman creation alluding to a largely invented persian past, for the purposes of giving their cult more prestige. Like eveyrone else unfortuneately, i dont have the time to give this article the throough editing and reworkng it needs and deserves. the very last part, all about the ideas of cumont and larson, is simply appalling, in both style and content, and should probably be deleted entirely. I would do it myself, but i havnt got the guts or the patients to take on whichever out of date fool put it in there, and who would doubtless be outraged over my removing the total rubbish that they have written.Mattlav 18:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Ps, what is person writing about christian and muslim on? what is he talking about? who is he talking about? if its zeusnoos and badbilltucker then its a very strange thing to write indeed; since they seem to be largely agreeing with each other, and going ovr a few points; i cant understand what would make him think this is some kind of manifestation of east-west hatred.Mattlav 18:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Famous Mithras Worshippers
Is this section real? Doesn't look in and the one blue link gives no mention of him being a Mithras worsipper (can't remember the adjective). Loathe to take it out if its real though 86.140.196.47 00:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
- Forgot to log in NatashaUK 00:35, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Relation of Mithraism to Christianity
some very interesting references added by user Marmanyu; though as an individual essay, it does reflect rather more original research than is usually considered proper for Wikipedia. Still this article as a whole is scarcely a paragon of Wiki-propriety. Perhaps Marmanyu could edit it down a bit?
A few queries for Marmanyu:
- you mention examples of house churches converted from disused mithrea, can you be specific with names, as I am unaware of any such? There are several examples where churches are erected over the sites of demolished mithraea - but that is a differnt case. Christians - from the 4th century onwards - commonly re-used pagan temples; but they seem to have made an exception with mithraea.
- in general early christianity happens in places where mithraea generally aren't; i.e. Greece, Egypt, Asia-minor, Syria. The only places where they coincide are in North Africa (where Tertullian is clearly aware of mithraism), and Rome/Ostia. Examples of influence really only seem apparent from the 4th Century - when Pagan Revivalists seem to have promoted Mithraism in an attempt to counter-act Christianity (see on this Alison Griffiths). Remember that Mithraism is something that you have to do in a mithraeum, whereas a Christian is a Christian everywhere. Would it not appear that Mithraic representations were pretty well established long before Mithriasts were likely to be aware of Christianity - and vice versa?
- Mithraism appears to have disappeared completely in the early 5th century. Christian re-use of Mithraic sites, images and iconography at a later date (e.g. St Peter at Gowts in Lincoln, or even Santo Stefano Rotondo) may well reflect ignorance rather than relationships - e.g. "this looks like it might represent St Michael - lets stick it on the wall". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TomHennell (talk • contribs) 09:35, April 2, 2007 (UTC)
sorry TomHennell 11:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
