Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject countering anti-Serb bias

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellany page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete. Most (if not all) of the keep commenters have a self-interest in the project: the consensus among impartial Wikipedians is clear. If Wikiproject Serbia wishes to help edit articles to promote neutral point of view, that is fine; but, making an entire wikiproject whose goal is to counter a single, specific bias is troublesome, as this comes very close to encroaching on POV-promotion. Xoloz 14:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject countering anti-Serb bias

A single-purpose, single-POV WikiProject which divides Wikipedians rather than uniting them in a shared goal of NPOV. Such groups are generally not healthy for the Wikipedia community. There is an existing WikiProject Serbia which should address the combined goal of improving articles relating to Serbia. We should not be hosting single-issue-pushing WikiProjects. FCYTravis 04:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• Per nom, any sort of project to counter something may not be a good idea. Delete as divisive. ++Lar: t/c 04:21, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Divisive, uneeded and duplicated current wikiproject. Anything with a list of "bad articles" is a red flag in the POV pushing category. pschemp | talk 04:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nomination, this is redundant and appears divisive. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 04:30, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep - Along the sames lines as Wikiproject Countering systematic bias and Russian History Harmonization the goals of this project seem to not to be POV pushing, but rather, striving for WP:NPOV on articles that need additional sourced research on articles that have conflicting views and to present these articles fairly by ensuring that all significant published points of view are presented, allowing the reader to form there own opinion. // Laughing Man 04:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

note - Wikipedia:Russian History Harmonization no longer exists as a WikiProject --Dijxtra 16:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

note - it's due to lack of interest in it now, not due to division of the community or to generating NPOV or other allegations preseted to the "WikiPeoject countering anti-Serb bias". In the past it helped to establish some facts and to replace reverting wars with discussions. I can't see how can it be used in favor to delete the new project. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 17:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say it goes in favour of deleting this project. Just that the project doesn't exist anymore and cant be used as precedent. --Dijxtra 17:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but its lessons can be used... :-) Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 17:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

No, they're not even close to the same lines. WP:CSB has a goal of reducing systemic bias in our articlespace based on lack of sources or lack of interest in creating and editing articles on Third World, African, etc. subjects. Its goal is not to change the POV of a specific subset of articles because of a perceived political bias one way or the other. This project opens the door to Wikipedia:WikiProject countering conservative bias, Wikipedia:WikiProject countering anti-Confederate bias, etc. etc. etc. Wikipedians should not divide themselves by POV, but instead unite in the shared goal of creating NPOV articles. This WikiProject does the opposite. FCYTravis 04:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you missed the point, by reading the project page my impression of the goals of the project which is exactly what you said -- to unite in the shared goal of created NPOV articles. My rationale I have given above is taken directly from Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. // Laughing Man 04:52, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nomination and Pschemp. Sandstein 09:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. The nomination is simply wrong. The project is not single-POV: its intention is to uphold NPOV by identifying articles which have only anti-Serbian POVs in them (or their sections) and countering them with other ones. People who wrote such articles already have no goal of creating NPOV articles, so they can't be united by it. If the need arises for other counter-something projects, there is no reason why they wouldn't be made (there already is WikiProject Countering systemic bias in religion for example). Nikola 17:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, the difference is that that project is not aimed at one specific POV. This project is clearly single-POV, based on the title alone. What if this project runs across an article which is clearly inherently biased TOWARD Serbs? Will it simply ignore it, because "we only stop those evil Bosnian-slanted articles?" This WikiProject sets a dangerous precedent for splitting Wikipedians along partisan lines, and that is not acceptable. FCYTravis 17:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I am very disapointed that you are nominating this WikiProject for deletion based on title alone. And frankly your hypothetical question is so off tangent here it is very offensive. It does not whatsover reflect the goals of the project based the current project page. So much for assuming good faith. // Laughing Man 17:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Can you please clarify what you meant by this statement please? Thanks. // Laughing Man 08:15, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

What would WikiProject Countering systemic bias do if it runs across an article which overpresents the third world and doesn't talk about an issue as it appears in the first world? Pretty much the same thing.

You should note that Wikipedians are already split along partisan lines on these issues; it is better to keep it in the open than to pretend that it doesn't exist. Nikola 06:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Wikipedia's goal is to eradicate such partisan divisions and encourage disparate groups to work together and build an NPOV consensus. FCYTravis 07:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep Sadly, but anti/serbian POV ariticles are fact. Countering systemic bias in religion is good example that such project are necessary and welcome. --Manojlo 20:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep There are many articles with Pov propaganda. --Medule 20:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, clearly an attempt to organize the defences for a specific POV. Even if that weren't the case, it would still in fact be a mechanism for organizing the defences for a specific POV, regardless of the intent. Christopher Parham (talk) 23:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. WP is not war zone. Work on articles, Serbia has quite low coverage, AFAIK. Pavel Vozenilek 03:30, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• Personally, I have no desire to work on articles if I know that they will be POVed to destruction afterwards. Nikola 06:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Then engage in newsgrouyps or simething similar. Encyclopedia is about articles. In the future, when stable version articles will be implemented it will be easier to keep quality of articles against vandalism and warring. Pavel Vozenilek 11:00, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep, anti-Serb bias is present on Wikipedia in many forms, and this project is trying to eliminate it and create NPOV articles, not pro-Serb ones. This is no different to Wikipedia:Russian History Harmonization, which tries to "remove systematic anti-Russian bias in many articles related to Russian history". Definitely a keep. --estavisti 10:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the answer to that is to nom the Russian harmonization thing for deletion too? We just don't need projects that push a particular POV. ++Lar: t/c 14:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

You might want to check this out. --Dijxtra 15:01, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Good thinking, seeking consensus first seems a good idea. ++Lar: t/c 16:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

And, there it goes, Wikipedia:Russian History Harmonization no longer exists as a WikiProject. --Dijxtra 16:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, definitely. Let people work! The project is young, and we need to look how it will evolve. As the originator of the "Russian History Harmonization" project, I feel that such a project may help a lot in efforts to establish NPOV in articles containing controversies. My project mostly failed due to too little interest in it from all sides, including me. Maybe this project will be more succesfull one, and it may be a good testbed for finding techniques of countering bias. Please remember, the articles should be NPOV, and any bias should be avoided! However I would recommend to consider renaming the project to "WikiProject NPOVing Serbia-related articles" or something like that. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 17:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete or Merge Don't see why all the legitimate work here can't be done on WikiProject Serbia instead. I can definitely see how this can lead to potential POV-pushing. Borisblue 19:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete The NPOVing of Serb-related articles can be done at Wikipedia:WikiProject Serbia, no need for minor forks for Wikiprojects. feydey 22:01, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nomination. Coordination of disruptive activity on its own pages is certainly the last thing Wikipedia should be allowing. --Dr.Gonzo 22:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
• Merge with WikiProject Serbia. Despite the fact that I am the founder of WikiProject Serbia, and have led many campaigns to rid Serbia-related articles of unwelcome POV, Nikola has not invited me to join his project. However, I ask him now to accept my proposal to merge the two projects, copy most of his material into my project, and I ask him to be a co-mediator of the project with me. Nikola, we're stronger if we're together. I am more than happy to assist with the merge, if neccessary. --Serb ^talk 22:54, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
• Merge as per Bormalagurski. Хајдук Еру (Talk || Contributions) 06:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep This is a valid attempt to manage the malicious work of warriors on WP. Note that in agenda of this project there are no ideas even remotely like: "let's push our POW..". Let's give this project a chance, and see how it goes. If it helps documenting articles and citing sources, then it is a good thing. If it works bad, then there will be evidences that will be enough for its closure, but let's not deleting it in advance. -- Obradović Goran (ta^lk 13:53, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep --SasaStefanovic • 19:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

• After much thinking: delete per Borisblue. --Dijxtra 22:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

• strong delete THE MILJAKINATOR 07:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it says countering anti-serb bias, but really all it is, is an attempt to protect all the bad things the Serbs did. Saying that there is a bias against serbs, attempts to ask for the sympathy of others and then in turn ATTEMPTS to lead to Serb POV where they did nothing wrong and it wasntthere fault for anything. Of course the battle of Vukovar is going to make the Serbs look bad, but thats not Croatian POV thats fact. What Serbs did was wrong there, and in otherplaces as well, such as with Bosnain genocide. Some like the creator of this project cant except this fact and want to protect the Serb name that has been tarnished throughout the world for there inconcievable acts against humnaity. PLease also note that for good articles u put things such as Ustashe. It makes Croatians look bad and then its a good article. If serbs are bad its bias. THis is an attempt to follow a mantra that is common in Australia, "Bullshit baffles brains"

• Keep --Jovanvb 12:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
• Keep ****Djus 15:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete/merge. There is not enough evidence put forward yet to convince me that there is so much anti-Serb content that this project is necessary in itself or any evidence to indicate that WikiProject Serbia would be incompetent to do this work. Either way, the project per se is an unnecessary duplication, much like at least one other project which has recently been deleted. Badbilltucker 20:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.