Talk:Mirandese language
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is part of WikiProject Spain which aims to to expand and organise information better in articles related to the history, languages, and cultures of Spain. Please participate by editing the article, or visit the project page for more details. |
 |
Mirandese language is part of WikiProject Portugal, a project to improve all Portugal-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other Portugal-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome. |
| Start | This article has been rated as start-Class on the quality scale. |
|
Portugal To-do:
|
|
Contents |
[edit] Connection with Asturian
The connection with Asturian seems to be a tender subject. The two entries might be compared, with mutual advantage. --Wetman 06:12, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
- well. I saw this [1] and it has comparisons with Asturian. I did a very small paragraph with the differences (I dont have much time now). You can add more info. That article/site is in Mirandese. -Pedro 02:23, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This just plain does not make sense: The main differences between Mirandese in Portugal and Asturian in Spain are the dominant languages in each region,. I would correct it, but I can't work out what it is supposed to mean. --Taejo 09:24, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
- Yes it doesnt make sence. I meant: these two languages are influenced by Portuguese (Mirandese) and Spanish (Asturian). And this fact marks a big difference as Spanish and Portuguese are two 'grown up' languages, and "give" a lot of lexicon to the smaller languages. -Pedro 11:30, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] About "Garrafa"
I'm an Asturian speaker (from Spain) and we use the word "garrafa". It isn't a good example.
And i am not asturian speaker (i am from aragon) and i use garrafa too...actually none of those words were good examples as all of them are used both in spanish and portuguese
I have removed said examples because they are obviously inaccurate. I've heard both carro and coche in Spanish, and the word for "computer" in Spanish is computadora. Grandmasterka 08:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The usual term used in Spain for "computer" is "ordenador", not "computadora"; used in Latin America --Dantadd 14:39, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] 'Mirandese remains very conservative'
"Another difference is that Mirandese remains very conservative, while Asturian has changed. " It should be explained in what sense Mirandese is conservative with respect to Asturian... phonology?... lexicon?... grammar?... FilipeS 11:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
The whole article needs a rewrite. I think I even remember reading a better article here a few months (years?) ago (no offense to people who worked in it ever since). The sentence, as some other ones, makes indeed no sense. Both Mirandese and Asturian (meaning the Astur-Leonese dialects spoken in the Asturias Autonomy) surely changed a lot, and I doubt anyone has enough knowledge (of both the dialects and older accounts of Leonese) at this point to make such a statement. I should write a new version of this article as soon as I have some time. 19 May 2006.
[edit] Dialects of Mirandese
The article currently states:
- Three variants of the Mirandese language exist: "Border Mirandese", "Central Mirandese" and "Sendinês Mirandese". Most speakers of Mirandese also speak Portuguese; some of these speak Spanish as well.
But Lindley Cintra, in Nova Proposta de Classificação dos Dialectos Galego-Portugueses, speaks of riodonorês, guadramilês, mirandês and sendinês. This needs to be checked. FilipeS 21:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Lindley Cintra was admitedly far from being a specialist in Mirandese, and his few lines on this issue are dated (the work was written in the 60s). 'Riodonorês' and 'guadramilês' are two localects spoken (I'm not sure if they still are today) in two villages (Rio-de-Onor and Guadramil) in the Braganza county, at least 50km away from the Mirandese-speaking area. Those were indeed described as Astur-Leonese dialects, but not of the Mirandese branch. Following the studies develloped by the Linguistics Centre of the Univ. of Lisbon and a panel of local experts to get the 1999 law and Ortographic Convention done, Sendinês was considered to be with no doubts a Mirandese dialect, as the main differences lye in a few phonological processes observed in other villages (only never at the same time) and the historical accounts for huge lexical differences were proven unreliable. 'Raiano' is the name given to those dialects spoken in the land border ('raia seca', as opposed to that established by the Douro river), with a deeper castillian influence, namely in the vocalic system and in the lexicon. Although the text you mention wasn't written by me, there are many accounts of reliable authors dividing Mirandese in those three dialects, if you can read Portuguese (which, from your nickname, I guess you can). I tried to find one in English, but had no luck, as all the results headed to Wikipedia or text taken/modified from this article. 19 May 2005
[edit] Free text
To streamline the Portuguese language article, I am deleting the following text from it, and replacing it with a link to Mirandese:
- In the municipalities of Miranda do Douro and Vimioso (northeast Portugal, near the border with Spain), three dialects closely related to Astur-Leonese are spoken. They are called Mirandese (proper), Raian, and Sendinese, but usually designated by the generic term Mirandese in scholarly work. In 1999, the Portuguese Parliament recognized Mirandese as a language, co-official with Portuguese in the municipalities where it is spoken. A group of linguists from the University of Lisbon has set up an orthography for Mirandese, based on the spelling of Portuguese.
Feel free to reuse it here, if you find it useful. I was based on this article, anyway. FilipeS 17:17, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ethnic group
The mirandese people is a ethnic group different from the portuguese.
- And where was it that you saw that stated? (Please, sign your posts) Parutakupiu talk || contribs 20:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- The mirandese people is a national group because has his own languague and his own costumes. We don´t say that we are white and the portuguese blacks, we say that we are culturally diferents like the lethonian to the lithuanian. I don´t sign because I am not registered yet.
- I confess I don't know much about the mirandese history and community but can the linguistical (and tradition difference be a strong parameter to define "mirandese" its own as an ethnic group? Anyway, my goal here is to ensure that the statement you added has a verifiable reference, so it can be validated. Just that. And you're more than welcome to register and edit. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 23:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- The mirandese people is a national group because has his own languague and his own costumes. We don´t say that we are white and the portuguese blacks, we say that we are culturally diferents like the lethonian to the lithuanian. I don´t sign because I am not registered yet.
This is a complete and total fabrication! There are no feelings of ethnic differentiation in Miranda! I dont even think this unregistered editor should be taken seriously. Or else he is an anonimous vandal. Even if he is from Miranda do Douro, which I doubt, he is probably the only one that thinks the Mirandese are a different nationality or ethnic group. His edits are infatile and he doesn't understand that an encyclopedia is not about what the world is but about what people say (and discuss) the world is! His matter of fact statements, unsupported by any source, show he has no understanding of the social and cultural processes envolved in ethnico-political differentiation. His edits should be treated as vandalism. If he has a case for his statements he should bring it forward in the talk pages before writing such delusions on the multiple articles where he has been adding them. The Ogre 00:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- I completely agree that his remarks should be thoroughly support by valid sources. Unfortunately, it also seems to me that he's just vandalizing - from what I saw in your talk page, The Ogre. Sad... Parutakupiu talk || contribs 00:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
The mirandese are proud of his langueague, costumes and history, different to the people of Pertual. Miranfree 14:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- Miranfree, I see you have registered. Good. It means, I suppose, that you are serious in your purposes, and not a mere vandal. Now... regarding your opinion that the inhabitants of Miranda do Douro are a different nationality or ethnic group from the rest of the Portuguese, I have two types of comment:
- Methodological, regarding what an encyclopedia should be. Methodologicaly, yours is not a correct approach to writing in an encyclopedia. You see, when there is no consensus, and respecting the NPOV rule of wikipedia (see: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view), "The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one" and this must be done "representing fairly and without bias all significant views that have been published by a reliable source". You have not done so. Furthermore, and I do know the literature and reality about national identity in Portugal (namely sociological, antropological and historical), I have no knowledge of any source presenting the Mirandese as a different ethnic group or nationality. So... you look like an isolated individual defending something nobody else says, namely the Mirandese. You just blumtly state that the Mirandese are a different nationality because they speak a different language (and what does "speak" mean? check these statistics) - this, as I shall elaborat in the next paragraph, is invalid, but, even more important given the fact that you are the only source for such a statement, is not sufficient for an encyclopedia! Imagine I decided to write in the article about God, that God exists because I believe in it (or maybe evem some more people...). Then someone would decide to blank me and write that God does not exist because he or she does not believe in it! That is why the article must present all reliably sourced points of view, stating that these people think this and those people think that. Do you understand? I reppeat, an encyclopedia is not about what the world is but about what people say (and discuss) the world is!
- Substantive, regarding the de facto statements you present about the Mirandese. Substantively, your statements, besides unsourced, are basic (therefore rapidly refutable) and just plain wrong. Do understand me. I have nothing against the Mirandese and, personally, I don't give a dam if their are to be a different national or ethnic group or not! If that's what they whant to be - fine by me! But the fact is that I have never read that statement anywhere, there are no political movements or organizations deffending that position and I strongly believe that if you ask the Mirandese if they are Portuguese or not, they'll say they are Portuguese - they are Portuguese from Miranda, with particular cultural traits, traditions and linguistic heritage. Even the official site of the Câmara Municipal is in Portuguese, not Mirandese, the whole history section clearly states the integration of Miranda in Portuguese history, society and culture, and there is only a very small reference to the Mirandese language. Even a site as the one about Mirandese language by the Linguistics Center of the Classical Univerty of Lisbon (Sítio de I Mirandés), that clearly means to deffend the language and the cultural traditions of Miranda, never presents the Mirandese as a different ethnic or national group. Of course the Mirandese have"a language and a culture of its own", as FilipeS said, so do many other inhabitants of other regions of Portugal (if I say "Ú grade azoigou e foi átupir na manta das tanerifas" do you understand me? Well it's a phrase in the variety of the Portuguese language spoken in Madeira, albeit very archaic; in fact only in the Madeira and the Azores have ever had separatist movements, and their reasoning, mind you, was never one of cultural differentiation, but of geographical differentiation and political antipaty to the left-wing predominace in continental Portugal during the revolucionary process - do you, by any chance, know the literature about this?). That does not make them an ethnic group or a nationality (as you can see in the respective articles, these are not simple problematics...) - there are many nations that have internal ethnic and linguistic differentation, on the other hand there are different nations that share ethnic, cultural and linguitic heritage. And you even mention Race! By Endovelicus! Do you even know what you are talking about? Even if I could accept, and I can not, the implicits in your statement about Whites and Blacks (even in Talk:Portugal#Mirandese_nationality), that is to say, the simplist way in which you speak about such complex concepts, let me tell you that there are also nations that have internal racial differentiation and different nations that have the same racial make up!
- Concluding... my friend, and I shall assume that you are not ill intended, the Mirandese are not a different ethnicity or nationality. And by the way, I'm not a "salazarianism", as you accused me in my talk page (what you wrote is close to bashing - see Wikipedia:No personal attacks - and propaganda - your name, Miranfree, is already a political demand: "We speak a different language, we have our costumes, we are a different nationality. Stop to the portugueses salazarianism. Respect to the mirandese nationality."). Please stop your unfounded statements and edits. Thank you. The Ogre 03:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I respect your opinion but I think that when a people has his own land, his own costumes and his own langueague this people is a nationality. That´s in english, in mirandese and must be in portuguese also. Miranfree 10:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I won't try to refute what Miranfree has said, as this is not the right place for it, but as a Mirandese I should say there has never been a noticeable nationalist or separatist movement in Miranda nor its people feel they are part of something else other than Portugal, as proud as they might be in our specific cultural features. (I'm sorry but I don't have a Wikipedia account to sign with.) 27th March 2007
