Talk:Minyan

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[edit] minyanmaps.com

I'm not the one to judge: I notice the recently added minyanmaps.com. Should it be kept? - Jmabel | Talk 00:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong Book of Numbers reference?

In the article it says:

In fact, the requirement comes from the sin of the spies (Numbers 14:27), in which the ten spies who bring a negative report of the land of Israel are referred to as an eidah or congregation (Babylonian Talmud Megillah 23b)

yet, Numbers 14:27 says (at least in my KJV bible)

How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.

I'm not a bible scholar, but after reading and re-reading Chapters 13 and 14 I can't find support for the article text. To summarise; Numbers 13 names the 10 who went to scout the promised land (one of them was Caleb the son of Jephunneh). They found the land was good and reported thus, but they also found the land was occupied and feared that the current occupants were stronger than them. However Caleb (as previously mentioned) was supportive of going forth and taking the land. So only 9 of the 10 could really be considered as objecting in any form.

In Numbers 14; all the congregation lifted up their voice and all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron. This suggests that the later congregation mentioned in Chapter 27 refers to the whole people who were grumbling, rather than the 10 who'd gone out, and the 9 who were afraid to invade.

If someone could suggest an alternate reading that does support the article's interpretation, I would be most interested.

-- Jarich 13:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello. There were 12 spies sent out in Chapter 13, one for each of the 12 tribes. Joshua and Caleb provided a "good" report (Numbers 14:6), leaving 10 to provide a "bad" one. The 10 were able to turn the entire people around to their ends, the 2 were not able to do this. Thus 10 were able to speak to and for the entire people in a way that 2 could not. One may think these verses don't deserve the load placed on them, but Judaism has an oral tradition in which non-obvious meanings are sometimes inferred from Biblical verses through the oral tradition. This particualr inference has a rather long-standing role in Jewish tradition. The article is talking about classical Jewish beliefs which one may or may not agree with. It's not trying to provide an author's own personal interpretation of the Bible. --Shirahadasha 16:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I understand. Thankyou for the clarification. Jarich 10:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grammar / Linguistic nit

Wow, well, my question is not contentious as the above . The following sentence confused me: "It is also used as a collective noun, as in "do we have a minyan?"" It seems to me that the word is a collective noun, period. How does the usage given in the example differ from the basic use of the word? Perhaps the author of that sentence wanted to convey that it is sometimes used as a semi-ironic or clever substitute for 'quorum'? If so, I'd recommend a little clarification. "It is also used by some Jews and non-Jews as a ironic, humourous, pseduo-learned, or possibly even serious synonym for "quorum" for activities having nothing to do with jewish observances." I'm loathe to make the edit myself because maybe I missing the point, and the minyan itself is not a collective noun, or I'm running afoul of some Brit/US "team is" / "team are" pluralism issue. But I'm enough of a word nerd to bring it up here.  :) Paulc206 03:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

A minyan refers to both a quorum (for prayer services and a number of other religious activities), and to a group of people who conduct a prayer service. But when it refers to a group of people it a prayer service is involved. --Shirahadasha 03:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

In other words, "Do we have a minyan?" is (in a religious context) like "Do we have quorum?" That's a slightly different usage than if the expression were "Are we a minyan?" - Jmabel | Talk 03:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)