Talk:Minor Ravenclaws

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
This page is within the scope of WikiProject Harry Potter, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter universe. If you would like to participate, you can choose to edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
B
This article has been rated as Class B on the quality scale.
Mid
This article has been rated as Mid-Importance on the importance scale.

Contents

[edit] Clearwater is Muggleborn?

While Penelope Clearwater was petrified by the basilisk, that is hardly sufficient evidence to claim her to be Muggle-born. What other evidence is there?

  • It's possible Miss Clearwater may have been of partially Muggle descent (half-blood). My personal belief is that the Basilisk meant to attack one Muggle-born (Hermione), catching a second student who may or may not be of completely wizard heritage.

[edit] Individual pages discussion

Please participate in the discussion at Talk:Harry Potter#Breaking apart articles of characters regarding having individual pages for characters rather than group pages. --billlund 21:23, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ravenclaws in Harry's year

I've noticed some un-named characters haven't been mentioned. I composed this list from JK's notes in "Harry Potter and Me". There are 10 Ravenclaws here, all from Harry's year, and considering Rowling said in a recent interview (to the staff of Mugglenet and some other site!) that there are 40 people in Harry's year, it's probably a full set! For some trivia, Terry's first name was origonally 'Trevor'. Isabel's first name was origonally 'Katherine'. I've put a (?) by Isabel's name because part of it is covered by a dog-eared page, but considering the names are listed Alphabetically that's probably it;

Kevin Entwhistle

Terry Boot

Michael Corner

Anthony Goldstein

Steven Cornfoot

Mandy Brocklehurst

Padma Patil

Lisa Turpin

Su Li

Isabel(Moreg) MacDoungal

I hope someone else can do something with this, I wouldn't know how to lay it out! --195.92.168.165 01:39, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

As I checked this article closely, somebody deleted the Su Li. She is also listed as Ravenclaw students in J.K.Rowling's old notebook(Hogwart Student's name, blood purity, and gender in Harry's year). So, I put this one in this article, basically it's been important to mention this. *~Daniel~* ☎ 02:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Note to anyone intending on splitting off a section

This page has been processed by N-Bot, which, for browsing convenience, changes links to redirects to lists to links to the relevant list sections: e.g. [[Roger Davies \(fictional character\)]] is changed to [[Minor Ravenclaws#Roger Davies|Roger Davies \(fictional character\)]].

As a result, anyone who intends to split a section out of this page should be aware that, as of 27 August 2005, the following sections were linked to from the following pages:

~~ N-Bot (t/c) 18:36, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Anthony Goldstein

So is he Hogwarts' only confirmed Jew or what? It's always been my theory. --BDD 05:44, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Haha... umm, I don't think they really go into that. There's a Christmas break, but no Christians, etc. It's like Parvati and Padma Patil... they're never explicitly said to be of South Asian origin but it's something that can be assumed... although the movie shows us that they are... As for Goldstein I think it will remain a mystery. gren グレン 06:32, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

There is nothing here to indicate that somehow divining a character is Jewish based upon his surname (which is a German surname that some number of germanophone Jews adopted) is correct. My surname is Goldthorne. It's an English name unrelated to Jewish ancestry. There are Goldsteins, and many other Gold-prefixed names, that have no Jewish ancestry. Furthermore, I would ask, what is the relevance of including this piece of speculation? Does the character's possible Jewish heritage play any role at all in the literature? Does it somehow affect his importance, presence, or any other element of his inclusion on this list or in the source material? Finally, how is it to be reasoned that while he bears a surname that is in many cases Jewish, he bears a given name that is overwhelmingly non-Jewish; a name which, in fact, is that of a well-known Christian saint? 67.101.243.74 18:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Please don't trivialise my people's history, and find some sources. I have two ([1] and [2]) from a quick web search, plus family knowledge. As you said, Goldthorne is an English name; what does that have to do with Goldstein?
And first names prove nothing - many traditional Jewish families give names based upon tastes rather than associations. My father (Jewish) is Andrew. My great-grandfather (Jewish) was Philip. Myself and my brothers, of half-Jewish, half-Christian heritage, bear the names Michael Philip, Daniel Simon, and Benjamin James. Please bear this in mind in future. Michaelsanders 18:36, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Last names also "prove nothing." I could change my name today to Goldstein and I would be no more Jewish than I am now. 67.101.243.74 18:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Did you read the statement below? That reason is why it is high chance rather than certain, and why I have changed the second part of the statement to avoid OR. But since there have been no large scale name changings to Goldstein over the last 200 years, it does nonetheless remain high-chance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Michaelsanders (talk • contribs) 18:50, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

No one is trivializing any people's history. This is an encyclopedia article and not a do-it-yourself ethnic pride site. The content cannot be included on the article page at all. The statement, regardless of your "family knowledge" of the matter, is in violation of all three points of inclusion for Wikipedia.

67.101.243.74 18:42, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

'Do-it-yourself ethnic pride site'? How polite. Anyway, I've changed the phrase - it really is undeniable that Goldstein is a name of Jewish origins (you are welcome to source those with the surname who aren't Jewish, but it doesn't change history). Which fits NOR and V nicely. And if you accuse me of POV here, I will accuse you - it is a fact that Goldstein is a name of Jewish origin; which could make me wonder why you don't like it there. Michaelsanders 18:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Why would some make special strides to be overly polite to someone who has been out-and-out rude and nasty? I didn't accuse anyone of anything; the inclusion of the inappropriate statement and your own writing on this talk page indicates that you are pushing a non-NPOV. You have now also threatened me and engaged in personal attacks and the appropriate actions will be taken. Encyclopedias are not ethnic pride compendiums and this issue must be resolved in accordance with the rules. 67.101.243.74 18:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
NPOV means 'Neutral Point of View'. Please explain what you mean by that, and why I am not showing it. Because, as I have said, you are not explaining it - which makes it sound as though you are suggesting that my being Jewish means I can't be neutral in this issue. If this isn't your view, please explain what you do mean, so I can stop being rude (and, incidentally, I find your repeated references to ethnic pride offensive, and it suggests that you haven't read what I wrote. Do so, and stop using the term, thank you.). Michaelsanders 19:01, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Parentage of Ravenclaws in Harry's year

I believe it must be noted that the parentage of several characters --including Ravenclaws Michael Corner, Anthony Goldstein, Terry Boot and Mandy Brocklehurst -- so far purely derives from a single source (JKR's old notes, shown in the BBC interview Harry Potter and Me), whose verifiability is questionable. But JK Rowling didn't show Lisa Turpin's blood purity.

The notes date to a period prior to the publication of the first novel (1997), and reflect "work-in-process" information which should be considered (and noted as) tentative. In fact, the notes notably contain several details that are contradicted (superseded) by information in the published novels. These details include the houses of Michael Corner and Anthony Goldstein, which according to the old notes is Hufflepuff. Please also see here. --Mercurio 00:33, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

To indicate the tentative-ness of such information, I have placed "(?)" next to them. If someone can think of a better way of indicating this, please be bold. --Mercurio 10:02, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Indicating that information is "tentative", is different from saying that it is "presumed". The latter indicates an informed guess, but is nonetheless reader speculation. The former, on the other hand, means that the information does not come from speculation but was documented by the author (a primary source); however, the information may no longer be true in the author's final version. --Mercurio 10:02, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

To User:71.138.69.173: Hi. You removed the (?), and in the Edit Summary said that you did this because you were "right" about the parentage of these Ravenclaws and cited the HP Lexicon.

  • First, the purpose of the (?) is not to say that the information is incorrect-- it's saying that the information is tentative. As I've said, this means that the detail is known to be correct and what JKR had in mind at some point, but it is unknown whether it is still correct or whether the author changed her mind. Do you disagree that the information from JKR's old notes is tentative? Please read this before you answer.
  • Second, not everything on the HP Lexicon should be taken without question as certain or correct. It's the sources of their information that matter. The Lexicon's own interpretation of sources should be able to stand up to questions (which it welcomes).
  • Third, even the HP Lexicon draws a distinction between official ("canon") and unofficial ("non-canon") sources of information. According to the Lexicon:
"Canon" in this case means that we're 100% sure these characters exist in Jo's current Wizarding World. The planning charts and early drafts cannot be considered canon because they were heavily revised by the time the book was published.
Hence even the HP Lexicon admits that information from JKR's old notes should be viewed with some degree of doubt. --Mercurio 10:02, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I just think that the explanation to the (?) or whatever symbol you use to represent the tentativeness of the information (It could have been a *) in a linked footnote. What do you people think? VdSV9•♫ 10:36, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Padma Patil in GOF

It is stated that Padma Patil is in Gryffindor house in the film yet if you look closely at the ties of the twins in the cast shot of Dumbledores Army for the upcoming OotP, It appears she is wearing a Ravenclaw tie. Perhaps it is just a case that she has permission to enter the Gryffindor common room to visit her sister?E-flah 14:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I can't really see the tie in the photo that well, but if it is Ravenclaw the filmmakers probably just wanted to correct their error. Anyway, it really shouldn't be discussed here, there are plenty of good forums for that. :-) --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 00:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Goldstein

"His surname is a typically (German) Jewish surname, meaning 'Beautiful Stone'. Because of this, there is a high chance of his being either Jewish or possessing Jewish ancestry."

Which is entirely true, and those that compare it to Malfoy or Snape are ignoring history. The name 'Goldstein' is one of a collection of names adopted in Austria in the early 19th centuries, by a law introduced at that time requiring Jews to take up new surnames. Choice of surname depended upon the amount of tax one paid. The rich Jews got names such as Goldstein, Blumberg or Morgenstern ("Golden Stone", "Bloom Mount", "Morning Star") - 'beautiful' descriptive names, which sounded pleasant, distinctive, and evocative. The poorer Jews, on the other hand, had to make do with names like Stahl or Eisen ("Steel" and "Iron"); and the poorest had to make do with meaningless names. So far as I know, these surnames do not occur outside families of Jewish origin, unless specifically adopted by a person. Thus, the article does not specifically state that Anthony is Jewish/of paternal Jewish ancestry, because it isn't certain - he could be adopted, or his family could have taken up the name at some point, for whatever reason. But, as stated - there is 'a high chance'.

And by the way: for origins of 'Snape', I'd look to Snape castle, home of Catherine Parr's second husband. Michaelsanders 18:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of these points, there is no basis that is verifiable for the claim, speculation based on naming customs in original research, and endeavors to include information on a fiction character about who there is no more information available than what is found in the literature is a non-NPOV. The content cannot be included unless the author J.K. Rowling indicates something more about the character than has already been made available throuh her books and interviews. The statement is in violation of all three points of inclusion for Wikipedia.
   * Wikipedia:Neutral point of view
   * Wikipedia:No original research
   * Wikipedia:Verifiability

67.101.243.74 18:50, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Please explain how it is Point of View. I can only think you are accusing me of desiring to push a Jewish agenda; which, if so, is rather unlikely (I'd be on Radcliffe's article, wouldn't I?), but rather offensive. I am a neutral editor, thank you very much. As for OR - well, this falls into the grey zone. It isn't an attempt to warp or use evidence to explain one's own views; rather, it is the addition of genuine information that wikipedia thrives on. And verifiability: google "Goldstein surname meaning". And have a look. Michaelsanders 18:56, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
You are accusing yourself of that. My intention in making Wikipedia better by having it conform to its guidelines and keeping out speculative, unsourced, irrelevant content has nothing at all to do with your personal agenda, whatever it may be. Because I have made no such claim against you, if you are offended, only you can be held culpible for that. 67.101.243.74 19:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
'Goldstein' is a name of Jewish origin. Do you deny this? Michaelsanders 19:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't venture to affirm or deny it at all. It is not relevant. Whether the fictional character is Jewish or not is not supported by the literature (therefore not verifiable), such information constitutes original research, and pushing it as a point of ethnic pride is a violation of WP:NPOV. Whatever the name Goldstein is, is entirely irrelevant to the content's inclusion. 67.101.243.74 19:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I am finding your accusations that my viewpoint is based on 'ethnic pride' very offensive. My point is that 'Goldstein' is a Jewish surname, just as 'Patil'/'Patel' is a Southern Asian (Indian in particular, I think) - and the latter is included in their sections. It isn't OR to point out that the name is a Jewish surname. It is verifiably a Jewish surname. These points are even included in the Lexicon, a Rowling-approved site. And your POV belief is based solely on your belief that you think I am 'pushing' some sort of agenda. Michaelsanders 19:13, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Still changing it without any references and still using your Jewishness as a crutch. It's no one's fault but your own if you're offended that nearly all readers find it ridiculous that you're claiming a character for your ethnic group. No one is insulting your ethnic group by asking for some shred of literary support that your favorite character is actually what you'd like him to be. 67.101.243.74 09:57, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../m/i/n/Talk%7EMinor_Ravenclaws_95c6.html"