Talk:Minoan eruption

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Contents 1 "The Santorini Event" 2 VEI 3 1645 BC? 4 LM What? 5 Greek + Biblical "records" from 1600 BC 6 Thera eruption was bigger still 7 Rename the article 8 Essay entry

[edit] "The Santorini Event"

The page mentions "the Santorini event" but previously it had just talked about ashfall in Santorini. Is that what the "event" was? It seems that something is missing. Rodrigo braz 03:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 03:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC). I realize now what is missing. At no point the article mentions that Thera is one of the islands of the archipelago of Santorini. For the reader who doesn't know this, it just sounds like Santorini is another island, especially when it is mentioned the first time. Rodrigo braz 03:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] VEI

The VEI has been claimed by F. McCoy to be as high as 7. McCoy's claims, however, have not been published in the peer-reviewed literature. This has been discussed recently by many people on e-mail, where it has been pointed out that Keenan (reference cited in the article) presented evidence that the VEI has previously been overestimated (because it included the ash from Crete--this is also discussed in the article). Daphne A 05:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1645 BC?

Looking through past edits, it seems clear that whenever someone edits the page to say that the 1645 BC date is "under debate," someone always changes it to "proven incorrect." What is the general consensus? Hammer seems adamant that 1645 BC is correct but Manning on his site accepts the debunking of 1645 BC. I still don't fully understand why Keenan considers aeolian differentiation a non-issue in differences between the Greenland ash and Theran ash; I'd be grateful to have someone explain this to me. Also, does anyone know where in time are the other ash layers in the ice caps that could be Thera candidates? --Pryaltonian 07:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Keenan [2003] treats aeolian differentian in his paragraphs 32-34:

Regarding aeolian differentiation, this would not seem to affect trace constituent abundances per se, and there is no obvious mechanism by which it would substantially affect major constituent abundances, especially for glass. ... Indeed, using the same reasoning [as Hammer], the Greenlandic tephra could be argued to match any (non-Arctic) eruption.

Also, N.J.G. Pearce et al. [Geochemistry Geophysics Geosystems, 2004] demonstrate that the ash from Greenland is much more similar to Aniakchak than to Thera. (Pearce et al. actually claim that the ash is from Aniakchak, but Keenan has a piece on his web site (www.informath.org/G^304aS.pdf) showing how Pearce et al. made errors in their statistics.)

Daphne A 11:21, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

If there was an Aniakchak eruption, then it might be responsible for the 1650 BC climate anomalies which Kuniholm found at Porsuk. That leaves the 1628 BC rings and the 1623 BC ice cores to be filed with the evidence from Thera itself. -- Zimriel 19:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The climate anomalies found at Porsuk, Turkey, are identical with those found in California Bristlecone pines. Its both 1627 BC and some of the following years. --Bender235 23:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

There are more scientific studies that indicate that ice core data from both ca. 1645 and the 1629/28 period are not particularly related to this Thera eruption. A quote from 'Zielinski, G. A. & Germani, M. S., 1998. "New Ice Core Evidence Challenges a 1620s B.C. Age for the Santorini (Minoan) Eruption", Journal of Archaeological Science 25, pp. 279-89.'

The layer of ice in the GISP2 (Greenland) ice core corresponding to 1623 ± 36 BC, which is probably correlative to the 1628/1627 BC event, not only contains a large volcanic-SO 4 2- spike, but it contains volcanic glass. Composition of this glass does not match the composition of glass from the Santorini eruption, thus severely challenging the 1620s BC age for the eruption. Similarly, the GISP2 glass does not match the composition of glass from other eruptions (Aniakchak, Mt. St. Helens, Vesuvius) thought to have occurred in the 17th century BC nor does it match potential Icelandic sources.

(abstract quoted, full abstract available at http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2460360) On the whole, the archaeological date seems to be of more significance, as the technological dates are disputed. BTW, any works of Manning should be read with a grain of salt, as his eagerness to prove the older date clouds his conclusions. His dates are only after calibration, as before calibration they range well into the 14th century BC. He himself was one of the co-authors of the new calibration curve for c14-dating. Which should give some pause for thought. The archaeological dating method stands.Crusty007 01:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] LM What?

The section on "Impact on Minoan civilization" uses the abbreviations LM I and LM II, but they are niether explained nor linked to an explanatory article. At least one or the other ought to be done, for the benefit of those of us who have no idea what they refer to. [68.98.251.239 20:49, 29 May 2006]

Sorry. I've explained what "LM" means and why I'm using it as the master baseline; check under the "Dating the volcanic eruption" section. (Zimriel 18:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Greek + Biblical "records" from 1600 BC

The legendary accounts from Greece and Israel do not count as contemporary records in the way of Egypt or even China. I've labeled them "traditions" and moved them to the end. - Zimriel 15:26, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thera eruption was bigger still

See BBC News article.--JyriL ^talk 23:08, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! The full reference is

H. SIGURDSSON, S. CAREY, M. ALEXANDRI, G. VOUGIOUKALAKIS, K. CROFF, C. ROMAN, D. SAKELLARIOU, C. ANAGNOSTOU, G. ROUSAKIS, C. IOAKIM, A. GOGOU, D. BALLAS, T. MISARIDIS, and P. NOMIKOU.

"Marine Investigations of Greece’s Santorini Volcanic Field",

Eos 87 (34): 337,342,348 [22 August 2006].

Here is a quote (DRE = Dense-Rock Equivalent):

This young, widespread sequence is likely to be related to the 3600 year B.P. Minoan eruption of Santorini and may have been generated as a result of massive pyroclastic flow discharge into the sea. If the sequence consists of dominantly juvenile material from the Minoan eruption, then this would increase the total volume of erupted material estimated for this event. Volumetrically, the Minoan eruption deposit consists of four components: plinian ash fall from the main eruption column (2 cubic kilometers DRE), ash fall associated with pyroclastic flows (17 cubic kilometers [Watkins et al., 1978]), pyroclastic flow deposits on land on Santorini (1.5 cubic kilometers), and the newly mapped marine pyroclastic deposits around the volcano (41 cubic kilometers). Thus, the total volume of the event could be as high as 60 cubic kilometers DRE, nearly twice the previous estimate.

The estimate from Watkins et al. is an overestimate, but that does not make a large difference to the total.

(The two lead authors, Sigurdsson and Carey, are at the School of Oceanography, University of Rhode Island, in case anyone wants to mention it in the article.)

—Daphne A 10:12, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It isn't clear how much of the new finds are from the Minoan eruption. To judge by the quote, the investigators don't seem to be extremely confident (?).  —Daphne A 19:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC) hi

[edit] Rename the article

This article should rather be named "Minoan eruption", since there have been numerous eruptions of Thera within the last 4000 years alone. "Minoan eruption" is more specific than "Thera eruption". --Bender235 23:05, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I will rename it now. --Bender235 13:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know that this was a good idea. While it may be true that Thera eruption is vague, is there any evidence that Minoan eruption is even used in the scholarly world? This also presumes that this eruption caused the fall of the minoan civilization, which is not certain. I think it should probably be moved back. Thanatosimii 17:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Neither of these titles is accurate. The Bronze Age Eruptions of Thera/Santorini would cover the bases adequately for archaeologists. Alternatively, The Eruptions of Thera/Santorini: 2nd Millennium BCE would cover geology, seismology, vulcanology, etc., as well. "Minoan eruption" is neither geographically precise -- it did not take place on Crete -- nor culturally accurate -- the eruption affected the entire Aegean and beyond, consisting of many Bronze Age cultures other than the Minoan. Is there any reason to privilege the Minoan civilization above all the others? --unsigned comment by It'sWhom (talk) 19:24, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe the logic is that this explosion presumably ended the minoan civilization. However, as I have said, that is not certain. Thanatosimii 22:47, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Essay entry

There are several points at which this becomes tendentious, presenting one editor's opinion of the right version. I do not claim that Galanopoulos is correct, but this is not the WP way to deal with a clear theory. I am not sure what more needs revision, but please read WP:NPOV; we're not here to argue for or against any version, even the right version. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)