Talk:Military history of Germany

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Military history of Germany was the collaboration of the week for the week starting on October 30, 2005. For details on improvements made to the article, see history of past collaborations.

== Improvments == List your improvments here, like what you changed or what content you added. Weirdperson11 01:28, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Change this from a bulleted list to paragraph form. Define Germany. The term can be elusive. There's some truth to the sequence of ancient Germanic tribes - Holy Roman Empire - modern German state, but it needs qualification. Some ancient tribes stopped considering themselves German, e.g. the Franks. The Holy Roman Empire included non-German areas, e.g. Hungary, and its emperors held only nominal authority of many of its 300 subject states.

Provide a narrative structure. The decentralized Holy Roman Empire collapsed under Napoleon. The 1815 Congress of Vienna established 15 German states. Prussia, the largest, controlled two geographically isolated regions. This motivated Prussia's drive for political unity and later its expansionism beyond the Congress of Vienna boundaries. Bismarck's conquest of Denmark's southernmost provinces Schleswig and Holstein in 1867 foreshadows the 1870 Franco-Prussian war, which in turn prefigures some aspects of Nazi expansionism. The territorial gains from Denmark and France had not been entirely German-speaking.

With the exception of the confused policy Weltpolitik (which led to World War I), the dominant theme of nineteenth century German military history was to unite German-speaking populations under a single government. This had disastrous consequences in the late 1930s. European statesmen interpreted Hitler's early annexations in that context. See the Munich Agreement. [1] Nineteenth century Germany had not been a significant colonial power. Lebensraum is a far cry from Schlegel's Kulturnation, yet more than a century of military history shows the shift.

The present article ends with 1945. The Nuremberg Trials introduced the significant concept of war crimes. Following World War II Germany has been extremely reluctant to participate in United Nations military actions. Postwar Germany was the first country to add a conscientious objector clause to its draft. German law offers an alternative two years of peaceful public service. Durova 16:37, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Everything what I read here is unhistorical - to say it gentle...

1. Karl der Große (Charlemagne) wasnt French, he was a Frank: the name France comes from the germanic tribe of the Franken 2. To talk about Germany and France in this time is simply a joke. nationbuilding began more than 200 years later 3. they watched the Romans building a bridge and then they ran away? Dont take it personal, but this article isnt about Britain - witch was invaded as Gallien was. The Romans where overruled by trying to invade "Germania" more than 3 times. The building of the colonies Germania magna and Germania inferior was more to make some good propaganda in Rome, cause the main population was there was Celtic, and the Germanic people there where new settlers looking for new ground. 4. There is no Germany till 1871. Till that days Germany was splitted into 39 states, before 1815 into the unbelievable amount of more than 200 states. The states where fighting more each other than the foreign states, and so every invasion made by foreign nations was made with the help of some German states against some others. 5. What about the 30 years of war 1518- 1548, where the half of the population died? I know that you are obsessed with WWI and WWII but the history of Germany is mutch longer than that. 6. Austria and Germany where part of the holy roman empire of the German nation, and its unhistorical to devide them from Germany till the year of 1871 7. I know you will hate the idea, but when you take all of this together you have to write 200 German war- historys (Brandenburg, Sachsen, Hessen, Bayern, Schlesien, Hanse- cities...) till 1871, and from that day on you can begin your article 8. Its better to end this project; or start it 1871.

I tend to agree with the previous comment - before 1871 there is no 'Germany' in the sense of a nation state, and any attempt to write a military history covering the period before that date (with the possible exception of the period immediately leading up to it) is likely to drown in ever changing definitions of what the concept of 'germany' meant at a given point in time. I know the same applies in theory for the period 1945-1989, but at least there is convergence at the end...Averscha 08:27, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

My introductory comment about the Franks might have been oversimplified, but does it really help the reader to correct it in so much detail? Perhaps a better compromise would be to say some of the Franks later identified themselves as French. The main point of the paragraph is to illustrate the difficulty of defining German in early history. Durova 17:56, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

While I sympathize with your larger objections (see above), I also see value in providing at least a cursory and qualified summary of earlier periods with links to more appropriate resources. We cannot assume that the Wikipedia reader knows how recently Germany unified. Encyclopedias exist to provide such information. Durova 18:21, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Removed detailed insertions from the introduction. To the author of those additions: they're good. Please work them into the medieval section. Durova 06:01, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 bullets 2 language detail? 3 Holy Roman Empire 4 German Unification 5 Ancient Germany 6 Second World war 7 Germany army in Afghanistan today 8 To the regular editor(s):

[edit] bullets

It seems odd to me that all the sections besides the last one are in bullet form while the last one was in paragraph form. It seems like a good idea to change this so they're all the same. --kralahome 02:36, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

They should be changed to paragraph form where possible Astrokey44 04:10, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Then change them, what's so hard about that? This still seems like a fragmented article with the bullets --Weirdperson11 14:00, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] language detail?

"Over time the hypothesised Proto-Germanic Language (PGmc) split into four main groups. 1. The Western Groups: gave rise to the Friesland dialects, English and Dutch 2. The Central Groups: gave rise to the modern High German and Platt Deutsch as well as many regional dialects. 3. The Eastern Groups: (now extinct) gave rise to the Gothic languages and related groups (eg Heruli) 4. The Northern Group: gave rise to the languages of modern Scandinavia."

• Anon user User:202.165.89.242 (who I think is a new user) just added some sections to the article, some of them were good additions, but is this detail about languages necessary at the start in an article about the military of germany? Astrokey44 10:26, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree, Astrokey. While the info is interesting, it is not necessary in this context. I invite everyone with expertise on the matter to rewrite it in a more suited way as to the subject of this article. Shauri smile! 15:44, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I've given the article a new introduction per your suggestions. My own expertise is strongest for the period 1789 - 1914. Unfortunately it's more political, economic, and cultural than military. I may contribute more if no one else steps in. Durova 16:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Holy Roman Empire

I edited the previous 'Hussite' text rather extensively, my reason being that although it was good information, it was probably written more from the 'czech' rather than 'german' perspective, and some of the detail (notably the Joan D'arc reference) would fit better in the Hussite article. Any thoughts? (Averscha 11:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC))

I am not sure the paragraph on Louis the German/Lothar adds much to the subject, since there is no 'military' angle here. If the difference between German monarchs/Holy Roman Emperors is indeed relevant (and it couldwell be), then I would suggest it is worked into the narrative instead of a note. At the moment, it doesn't seem to fit in. (Averscha 12:22, 9 November 2005 (UTC))

[edit] German Unification

Could someone help out with the details of nineteenth century German unification? It's been years since I studied this in college and I've been looking for sources to refresh my memory. The sources I'm finding on the Web slide over the 1850 - 1866 period. We leap from Friedrich Wilhelm IV refusing the crown of a united Germany to Bismarck leading an expansionist united Germany into war against Denmark. Durova 18:58, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I'll have a look through some reference works to make absolutely sure, but from memory I don't believe there was much in terms of 'military' history which might explain the gap... Averscha 19:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Added what I could find, hope this helps. Fact is that there was indeed very little in the terms of military activity from the 'German' states (except Austria, which declared against Russia at a very late stage of the Crimean War). Averscha 19:59, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, the most important fact for this article in that case was that this stage of German unification was peaceful. Durova 17:18, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ancient Germany

The one part that still needs serious attention is ancient Germany. Anyone up to the task? Durova 03:40, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

one of the problems is its difficult to define who exactly you should include - germanic tribes who invaded rome? or just the things that happened in the present day boundaries of germany Astrokey44 04:25, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Second World war

The Germans never succeeded in their strategic objective of splitting the allied lines (hence the reference to a 'bulge'). The last edit seemed to indicate that they did, so reworded that change. If there was another reason for splitting that sentence, pls advise (Averscha 12:29, 11 November 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Germany army in Afghanistan today

Does anyone know what German army units are currently in Afghanistan? Chwyatt 08:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To the regular editor(s):

This article seems to have a strange historical twist ... If one were exact than the military history of Germany, starts in 1871 with the founding of (a unified) Germany. Of course this would be a bit strange so I myself think its logical this article also treats the historical German states and political entities with a large German presence as a part of Germany's military history. But to treat or make it seem as if the Germanic tribes are a real part of Germany's military history strikes me as a bit off ... if no one objects I'll remove them soon. Rex 16:51, 2 December 2006 (UTC)