User:Mikkalai/arkven

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Hi Mikkalai. I am growing increasingly irritated by Värmland, Swedish girl, Rumpali, Swärd, Factual approach, Simply not your speciality, Bergen not raining, Judith A., Dan Knapsmith, Drow Ssap, Andreas J., H. Andropov, Roberto A., Johan L. Smith, Annika Berg (who also vandalized my user page), Stop false Swedish Nationalism, Stop false nationalism, Let's refer to distinguished sources, User:213.216.211.69, User:213.216.199.10, User:213.243.182.3 and User:213.216.199.2 who continually paste massive unstructured blocks of prose into the Kven, Prehistoric Finns in Americas and Finnic articles and their talk pages while systematically leaving their comments unsigned and poorly structured. What to do? //Big Adamsky 18:38, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I feel your pain, brothers. Our pet sockmeister is up to 20 confirmed and 69 suspected, according to the category counts. Let me know if you need more mops on deck. Just zis Guy you know? 19:12, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Please, couldn't somebody just ban this person, like last year or something. As I mentioned above, it is not only the Kven article, but all kinds of articles concerning Finnish history. Many should really better be deleted and rewritten from scratch. It is all sloppy POV garbage. The following are the usernames I listed on Dbachmann's talkpage a few weeks ago (see link above): Carolina de la Gardie (talk • contribs), Martin Luther (talk • contribs), Swedish girl (talk • contribs), Variag (talk • contribs), Viking Investigator (talk • contribs), 213.216.199.2 (talk • contribs), 213.216.199.10 (talk • contribs). There is nothing useful coming from these accounts or IPs, and the person is not working on improving the encyclopaedia. Or should we ask for a Checkuser first? u p p l a n d 20:22, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
The multiuser in Kven article did not violate wikipolicies that warrant blocking. Sockpuppetry is strongly frowned upon, but not totally forbidden, see wikipedia:Sock puppetry. Of course, Checkuser request is a good idea, just in case, but blocking is not warranted so far. mikka (t) 20:31, 3 March 2006 (UTC) (moved from my talkpage. u p p l a n d 20:41, 3 March 2006 (UTC))
Well, that was, more or less, what I told Dbachmann last time (see link above), but it seems a lot of people are wasting time and getting frustrated from this. Well, I removed most of the pages frequented by the user from my watchlist a while ago, so I probably won't get more involved at this point. u p p l a n d 20:41, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Alphabetic list


The {{vandal}} template seems to be broken, judging from some of the links above. u p p l a n d 19:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

What makes you think so? I see nothing suspicious. mikka (t) 19:08, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Look at the "page moves" or "block log" links for usernames containing more than one word. The link only searches for part of the name. u p p l a n d 19:21, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I see. You have to replace SPACE by UNDERSCORE, see Template talk:Vandal. mikka (t) 19:37, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

All are at Wikipedia:Requests for CheckUser#Socks that edit Kven now. mikka (t) 22:24, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Kven

As I have pointed out before (see User talk:Dbachmann#Need_attention for my reply to Ghirlandajo), the person filling the Kven page with OR is obviously the same Finnish chauvinist who has been problematic in other ways as well (such as changing the name of Jacob De la Gardie to the Finnish Jaakko - Finnish nationalists like to pretend that everyone always spoke Finnish in Finland - and making him a "Finnish field marshal", a job that didn't exist before Mannerheim). His editing has been from a couple of recurring IPs and a few different usernames. Personally, I'd like to see his IPs permanently blocked. A checkuser would probably be useful too, just to make sure all usernames really are the same user (the MO has always been the same, as far as I have seen). u p p l a n d 21:37, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Answer to the above: In Finnish history books the name is commonly written as Jaakko De la Gardie, and there is nothing "chauvinistic" about that. The Finnish family relations of Jaakko De la Gardie are well established for instance through his Finnish grandmother Karin Hansdotter, the mistress of king John III. It is not, however, as certain at all whether or not Sofia Johansdotter (Gyllenhielm) really was the illegitimate daughter of king John III of Sweden, as is often claimed. As we all know, we can determine the mother, but the father is often hard to determine even in the modern times, not to mention the time of Jaakko De la Gardie.
During the Kalmar Union Sweden was for long ruled by the Danish King. Nearly all governing officials in Sweden were either Danes or Germans, more so than in Finland. Yet, the few Swedish officials of the period were - and still are -considered "Swedish", eventhough they were governed by the Danes. Similarly, those Finnish officials operating during the period of Sweden-Finland were naturally Finnish, if they were from Finland and of a Finnish descend, regardless what languages they spoke (often that part is hard to fully determine anyway).
Thus, your double standars are astounding, to say the least. You ought to concentrate in viewing history in much more neutral light. Furthermore, that all topled with your totally unnecessary name calling and bad language use lead one to view you as a nationalistic and very one-sided twister of historical facts.
Finnish Admirals and Field Marshals Horn and Fleming, for instance, famously saved the Swedish Empire - a.k.a. Sweden-Finland - from becoming a part of Denmark.
It should be also noted, that during the period of the autonomous Grand Duchy of Russia the Finnish officials were - and still are - considered Finnish, regardless where they served as generals and/or other officials, i.e. either in Finland or anywhere within the Russian Empire. For instance, in the inauguration ceremony of the last Russian tzar, three of the seven generals of the tzar's personal body guard unit were Finnish. In no history writing they are referred to as Russians.
Factual Approach - March 25, 2006
Posthumously giving a person a Finnish name he never used is indeed anachronistic Finnish chauvinism. You seem to equal Finnish (language) with Finnish (nationality) which is not even true now, and certainly was not true for the aristocracy of that period. Do you have any evidence that Jacob De la Gardie used a Finnish form of his name? As for state officials such as generals, the point is that they are Swedish, regardless of which part of Sweden they came from, be it Finland, Västergötland, Småland or Hälsingland. Finland was not an independent country and did not have its own army or navy, hence no Finnish generals, admirals or privy councillors either. Neither the ethnic origin nor the part of Sweden somebody came from changes the fact that someone who was a general in the Swedish army can only be defined as a Swedish general.
You can't even compare Finland as part of Sweden before 1809 with Finland as part of the Russian empire 1809-1918, as the Grand Duchy of Finland had a relatively autonomous position within the Russian empire, while it earlier had been as much an integral part of Sweden as any other part of the country. You are trying to push the idea that Finland was somehow an equal part in a dual monarchy "Sweden-Finland", which in fact never existed. Had Sweden not lost Finland in 1809, it is possible that Finnish nationalism would eventually have forced the creation of such a dual monarchy, as happened with Hungary in relationship to Austria, but that is speculation. In real history that never happened.
"Neutrality" can not allow us to rewrite history according to our personal national perspectives or claim modern-day national identities for people who lived 300 or 400 years ago. u p p l a n d 15:23, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
You side-stepped the question. Isn't it a cute proof of your obvious and very visible double standards, when you chooce to overpass the long lasting period of Kalmar Union, when Sweden was run by Danish and German officials. We can see the few Swedish officials of the period called "Swedish" by the Swedes, even in modern times. Why is that.
In several occasions Sweden's independence and its highest congrete governance was in the hands of the Finnish officials during the the time of Sweden-Finland. In comparison, the Swedes never had such a power during the time of Kalmar Union. Let's face it. The Swedes were always Swedes, and the Finns were Finns, no matter what union they were a part of. By the way, Finland had a chance to be a duchy also during the periof of Sweden-Finland, whereas Sweden was never even close to being a duchy during Kalmar Union.
Furthermore, your comments here also present another type of serious misspresentation, which - along with your problematic behavior - can be easily proven. As a reason for your pointless name calling here, you offer the facts that you have apparently caught someone "pretending that everyone always spoke Finnish in Finland", and you've also caught someone "seemingly" "equaling Finnish (language) with Finnish (nationality)".
However, neither one of those claims of yours - in any form - appears to have been made by any of the authors listed below in the line of messages on this page. In contrary, as we know, a Finn - of course - can speak any language he wants, still being very much a patriotic Finn. Finnish students, for instance, are known to have been keen in speaking other languages, besides Finnish, throughout at least seven last centuries. Before Swedish language ever rose to the later importantance in the education of the Finns, the Latin and French languages - also other languages - were often the choice of Finnish students and nobility.
Futhermore, even in modern times some Finnish citizens do not speak Finnish at all, not much anyway, like for instance the current Formula One race driver Nico Rosberg. Sadly - but typically -, the Swedish media was calling his father, the Formula One racing World Champion Keijo Rosberg, "Swedish" a quarter century ago, because he happened to speak Swedish, on top of his perfect Finnish and other language skills. Mr. Rosberg, however, quickly convinced the world media, that he is not Swedish, but very much Finnish instead. When this type of ultra nationalistic Swedish faul play takes place even during our time of electronic media, how could we now convince you, Mr. Uppland, about the Finns of more distant past.
So, we ask you, who has suggested such things, which you accuse them of having suggested above. Certainly you ought to be able to offer us an exact quote of such a claim, or something even close to such a claim, including also the page, date and time for such an occurance. If you cannot come up with such proof, can we now begin calling you a lier, also a "chauvinist" which you are calling others based on foundless accusations.
I see no point in carrying on with this sort of chauvinistic language conversation with you, which you seem to be attempting to drag us on, after first making up these false accusations of yours.
However, since you ask, let it be noted, that Jaakko De la Gardie learned to speak in Finland, where he was brought up by his Finnish grandmother. Among his accomplishments, he marched his Finnish troops to Moscow. He also held his army of Finnish men in Novgorod for six long years, continuously (that particular army included also some foreign soldiers). What language you believe he spoke to his Finnish troops.
De la Gardie's Finnish men called him "Jaakko", as do in modern times the most notable Finnish historians of Scandinavian and Finnish history. Famously, during their six years' stay in Novgorod, De la Gardie's Finnish men began calling their leader Laiska-Jaakko, "Lazy Jaakko", due to the fact that he took that long to hold up Noggorod. They made up a poem to honor "Lazy Jaakko": "Lähti suvi, lähti talvi, vaan ei lähde Laiska-Jaakko" (in English: "Summer left, winter left, Lazy Jaakko - however - does not leave".


Factual Approach - April 1, 2006 - revisited April 4, 2006
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