Talk:Middlesbrough

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áIt used to say that Cook was born in Mbro. I can't see that this was correct as he was born in Marton at a time when Mbro hardly existed, so it sounds weird to say he was born there - no-one at the time would have seen it that way. I have corrected it with slightly clunky wording - feel free to tidy up. Nevilley 15:52, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

I don't think Ridley Scott and Tony Scott are "from Middlesbrough". I think they spent some time in Teesside, but in Stockton rather then Middlesbrough? They seem to have moved around an awful lot. --Amortize 16:15, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have added a good deal to this entry,and eliminated the Scotts. Ridley was born in South Shields. I found a vandalism inserted by someone with a hatred of Newcastle. I am editing a number of sites, so am just inserting the material for the moment and will be back to finish the job properly.

Emmet 15.10 11 June 2005 I've done the best I can to tidy up.I think it reads well

Emmet 15.08 12 June 2005

Why include the 'crap towns' allusion? This was a poorly researched publication, meant as entertainment. Why use that to run Middlesbrough down? I wonder if the other 49 towns have mentioned their inclusion. I think not. It's not very encyclopaedic anyway, so I suggest it be omitted.

Emmet 20.12 11 July 2005

Ditto on your observations over the 'Crap Towns' remark. That said, I personally don't have too many objections to its inclusion, despite being something of a Middlesbrough proponent. It is inserted in humoured spirit, and the comment in question is both well-mannered and sympathetic ("misfortune") etc. So, no strictly NPOV but true, nor is it to be deemed as generic encyclopedia fare either.

20 Dec 2005

I'm a UoT graduate and I seem to remember the VR center being finished? See: VR Centre mini-site

Contents

[edit] Town & Borough

The town and borough are the same place, jimfbleak 17:07, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

No dispute of that but the name of the district is not "Town & Borough of Middlesborough" like City and District of St Albans it is just "Borough of Middlesborough" like Borough of Milton Keynes. Mrsteviec 17:45, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eston and Normanby

The people of Eston and Normanby where/are fiercely independent of Middlesbrough and on several occasions fought the Councils of Middlesbrough through Parliment. The area of Eston and Normanby was run by The Eston Urban District Council.

[edit] ESTON DISTRICT

Eston and Normanby have existed long before Middlesbrough, yes they are seperate Towns tow Middlesbrough and have never been in an actual BOROUGH of Middlesbrough, as in to say, Eston District wasn't under the Authority of Middlesbrough council, but the whole Eston Urban District was under the Local government and parliamentary control (for the use of elections) of the Middlesbrough Urban Sanitary District. South bank, Teessville and the younger generations of people from Grangetown are more likely to Say they are from Middlesbrough. Grangetown & Southbank were built sometime in the 1880's, the land it was built on was bought by the owners of Middlesbrough, was served by Middlesbrough transport authority and used Water supplied by Middlesbrough. Funny how Eston always protested against merging officially within the Borough of Middlesbrough yet it was merged with Langbaurgh with no hassle!!! Check out these web sites

Also regarding the current population of Middlesbrough. If the Town of Middlesbrough has 135,000, how on earth can the whole Borough amount to 140,000? There is around 12,000 in Coulby Newham alone, plus the populations of Stainton, Thornton, Hemlington and Nunthorpe!!

A continuous stretch of urbanisation in itself can be regarded as a town, as towns do not neccessarily need to be a sub-set of any particular Borough or area of local government, that is they form a continous area of housing or industry without any definate or visible boundaries between the subsequent administrative districts. So in every way exept for local government, Eston is part of Middlesbrough Town.

[edit] Question; help, please.

I'm sorry about using this Talk page to ask a question for my own personal research purposes; but (1) this seems a likely place to get a good answer, and (2) perhaps the answer is something about which a Wikipedia article should be written.

Basically, I am trying to remember the name of a town or village, as well as the names of two specific features within that locale. (Sorry about town/village; although I've lived in England and look forward to returning, I'm from the U.S., where, at least idiomatically, such terms as city and town are used much less restrictively.)

In July 1997, on a coach day-trip from Darlington to Whitby, my girlfriend and I stopped in a little place on the way to Whitby. I keep thinking that it was called Middlesbrough, but maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe we took a small van to Middlesbrough, then boarded a coach there, and then stopped in yet another place, to get out and spend some time, before the tour resumed the journey to Whitby.

Anyway, the place I'm thinking of struck me as relatively small—though perhaps we were simply in a small-seeming area, or suburb, of a larger place. I don't remember any buildings of more than two or three storeys. The first stop was at what I would call a ruin. It was a stone house, possibly roofless in some places, that seems, in my memory, to be from the Middle Ages. In one large room, with large, glassless windows, the floor (dirt, possibly covered with gravel of very small pebbles) was wet either from the lack of a roof or from leaks in the roof. Within some minutes' walk of this old house, which may, in fact, have been called a castle, there was a lively market square.

In case it helps in terms of market days: we were there on Friday 4, or possibly Saturday 5, July 1997.

I'd be really grateful if anyone could help me figure out the name of the locale as well as the 'ruin'. (I do know some part of the ruin had a roof, because I remember being in a dark alcove of a window and taking a silhouette picture of my girlfriend's profile against the light coming in through the window; this was in a room whose floor may have been perhaps a meter below ground.) I could show a photo taken in the aforementioned wet-floored room if it would help someone help me identify the place.

Thanks again, and sorry about putting a personal question here. Still, once I find out the name of this place, I wouldn't mind researching and then creating a Wikipedia article on it.

Again, I'd like to know the name of the locale, the name of the old house, and the name of the market square. Thanks! President Lethe 18:18, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I doubt it was Middlesbrough. The coach service would have passed through into Middlesbrough centre but that is a relatively Large Town. Which route did you take, the country or coastal route?
Hey, thanks for responding; I didn't expect it to happen so soon. I've been trying and trying to find this place on maps, in books, at websites, in aerial/satellite photos, &c. Now that I think more about it, I'm pretty sure that the place I'm thinking of was indeed not part of Middlesbrough proper. Middlesbrough seemed much more industrial; I think we just took a small van to Middlesbrough, then switched there to a coach (I do remember being at a bus station), and then stopped again—in the place I'm thinking of—on the way from Middlesbrough to Whitby. I'm not sure about the distinction; but I would describe the route as countryside, not coastal. I can share a picture of the 'ruin' if anyone wants. I've failed so far to find anything resembling it in Google Earth—but not all the views of northeastern England are the sharp, aerial ones. Thanks again to any and all who can help. President Lethe 23:39, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Helmsley! President Lethe 00:03, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Maybe we actually went Newton Aycliffe–Darlington–Thirsk–Helmsley–Whitby on Fri 4 Jul, and Newton Aycliffe–Darlington–Middlesbrough–Scarborough on a later day. Places are Helmsley, Helmsley Castle, and the Marketplace. Anyway, thanks again for the help! Glad finally to remember; fills me with nostalgia. President Lethe 00:23, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

The route to Whitby would go through Guisborough, where there is a ruin ( Priory ) and a popular market. To go to Whitby via Helmsley doesnt make sense because you wuld have to back over the moors, you would go to Scarborough via Helmsley.

[edit] Population comparison with Newcastle upon Tyne and Sunderland

I have removed an incorrect statement regarding the comparison of the size of the towns.

Measured by Urban sub-area as defined by the Office for National Statistics (which is based upon the pre-1974 local authorities):

  • Middlesbrough 142,691
  • Newcastle 189,863
  • Sunderland 177,739

This shows that Middlesbrough is the largest town in North Yorkshire and in Teeside, but is the smallest of the three major towns in the north east. Steven J 23:57, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I apologise for the statement, i was referring to the actual land area as oppose to population, my mistake. dj_paul84 19:53, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Population of Middlesbrough Town

This is referring to the population of Middlesbrough Town. According to the most recent article, Middlesbrough has a population of 142,691. How on earth can this be true? The population of the whole borough is just over 147,000!! So how can the Town be 142,000 and the borough have 147,000 when Nunthorpe has 4,620, Marton has over 9,990 and Coulby Newham has over 12,000 people? That isnt even including Stainton, Thornton and Hemlington which are seperate settlements from Middlesbrough Town!!! If Middlesbrough Town had a population of 142,000, then from the population of Nunthorpe, Marton and Coulby, the whole borough would be around 157,000, even without the settlements of Stainton, Thornton and Hemlington added!!!!!

Towns are not necessarily a subset of the borough after which they are named. For example, the population of Reading Borough Council is 144,000 whilst the population of the urban area stretches outside and has a population of 232,662. It is therefore entirely possible that the Office for National Statistics have included areas outside Middlesbrough Borough Council's area within the Urban Area of Middlesbrough.
The population of the whole Teeside conurbation is given as 365,323; and is made up of the following Sub-Areas (or towns) - Billingham (35,592), Eston and South Bank (32,788), Ingleby (14,290), Middlesbrough (142,691), Redcar (36,443), Stockton-on-Tees (80,060) and Thornaby (22,620).
More information can be found on the ONS's report, Key Statistics for Urban Areas Steven J 18:16, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, still doesnt make sense. I agree with Towns not ahving to be within a certain administrative area and can indeed cross over into 2 seperate ones which is apparent in the case of Middlesbrough/Eston area. The Info from the Key Statistics given by ONS, gives each of the main Towns of Teesside as oppose to the collective district each belong to. So it is still apparent that the Town of Middlesbrough has 142, 691. Fair enough but then the Borough of Middlesbrough would have nearly 200,000? Here are some figures which Ive gathered from various sources such as Tees Valley Statistics and local council websites:

Middlesbrough Town = 142,691 (mid 2005). Stainton & Thornton = 3,500. Hemlington = 4,000. Coulby Newham = 11,600. Marton = 9,990. Nunthorpe = 4,620.

From these figures it would mean that The Borough of Middlesbrough has a population of over 176,401??? This is obviousely wrong. Maybe the ONS have counted the Town of Middlesbrough as the whole Borough!!. So with that figi=ure in mind, and the addition of Eston (which is part of the Middlesbrough Urban Area), Middlesbrough has over 209,189!!! hmmm, cud anyone divulge any info on ow this can be? dj_paul84 22:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily... You're assuming that Middlesbrough is contained entirely within the Borough of Middlesbrough, rather than potentially spilling outside. Looking at a map (I'm not local!), I would guess that the whole of Nunthorpe is counted as being within the Urban Area, but only half appears to be in the Borough. Equally Ormesby appears to be outside the Borough, but is potentially part of the Urban Area.
It's also a problem mixing figures from different sources as you can get some very odd results as you can see from your calculations. It's unlikely that the ONS have counted the Borough as being equal to the Urban sub-area, as both figures come from the same Census and the ONS release both sets of data. Steven J 22:34, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Armpit of England"

I have removed this derogatory term as it no longer has any relevance to Middlesbrough. The air is much cleaner nowadays and has been known to be cleaner than most large Urban areas such as Birmingham and Manchester. It has been known as the "Armpit of England" not so much for its pollution but more its industrial landscape. It has also be noted as the skid mark on Britains underwear but I do not agree both are worth noting. No matter what people say about Middlesbrough, it was one of the most important industrial Towns and greatly helped in shaping Britain dj_paul84 1:00, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


Well - I would have to disagree with dj_paul. This is an encyclopaedia, and therefore should include even "derogatory" terms, because it is a piece of information about Middlesbrough which people would like to hear. Ciao.


I really disagree with the inclusion of the "Armpit Of England" section of this article. As this is an encyclopedia it should be based on fact and not opinion. The development of middlesbrough compared to urban cities like liverpool and manchester has been slower but as Middlesbrough doesn't have city status and is a much younger town in comparison I think this is to be expected. Supposedly being called the "Armpit Of England" (being from Middlesbrough I have heard this term used for many towns in england) I think has no educational weight. For this reason I have excluded this section. Dangerhertz 15:55 8 April 2006 (UTC)


In response: 1) It says "Urban Centres", not "Urban Cities" 2) Whilst Middlesbrough may be smaller and "younger," the dockyard work brough a huge number of immigrants to areas such as Middlesbrough, Liverpool and Manchester. As such, they are comparable as industrial sites. The fact that Middlesbrough is smaller could be a sign of its failure, especially given the present circumstances. Whilst Manchester and Liverpool have regenerated successfully, it seems that Middlesbrough is having problems which one art gallery and putting slippery tiles in the town centre will not solve. 3) I too am from Middlesbrough. 4) The fact that this term has been used for many towns in England does not mean that it should not be used about Middlesbrough 5) This is not merely an opinion. As you yourself have admitted, this phrase is used about Middlesbrough, therefore has a right of place in an encyclopaedia. 6) What exactly do you mean by "educational weight"? To me, this means nothing.

--Pjmc 18:56, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

What I meant by educational weight was, this term "Armpit of England" is not exclusive to Middlesbrough and isn't an accurate description of this one town it's also not representative of mass opinion regarding middlesbrough, Therefore it's not giving anyone wishing to learn about middlesbrough any real knowledge of the town itself. The section on crime doesn't show middlesbrough in a good light BUT it is based on facts and figures whereas the "Armpit of England" section is pure opinion and therefore I dont think should be included. Whatever it is you think of regarding the efforts of Middlesbrough Council to regenerate middlesbrough is fine and in some senses I agree that we could be doing a lot better but I think it's upto wikipedia as a whole to give the facts on a subject thus leaving people to garner there own opinions and not sway peoples opinion on certain subjects

-- Dangerhertz 15:55 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I think you have a very perverted sense of what a "fact" is. I think you will find that it is FACT that Middlesbrough has been called "the armpit of england" and therefore, by your own acknowledgment, has a right to be entered in the section on Middlesbrough. As I said before, this is no longer stated as personal opinion, but as merely a fact. --Pjmc 13:47, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Is this there anywhere that you can find that Middlesbrough has been officially named as "Armpit of England" or is there a survey that you can produce that proves that the popular opinion of the people is that middlesbrough is in fact "Armpit of England" if so then I agree wholeheartedly that it should be included. But as we have already established this term is used for many different towns. Does this mean we should put it on every article of any town that has ever been described "Armpit of England"?

--Dangerhertz 15:55 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Even if only in the name of hazy affirmation, I do feel a considerable urge to back up dj_paul on this matter. Statements being made are indeed fact; albeit by the vagary of what they are, having little correlation with the level of infatuation of that which is said - clearly, in this case, particularly high, when not even a statistic or survey result, in themselves rather spurious and subjective in nature, is even inserted. On moral grounds alone, irrespective of the presence or otherwise of a system-wide 'NPOV' agenda no town featured on Wikipedia anywhere in the world warrants a section headlined "Armpit of Britain" or anything remotely resembling it. Hence, a clean and just victory for staple common sense here. - MRacer

[edit] NEIGHBOURHOODS

Just regarding the neighbourhoods. Some of thhose in the list arent neighbourhoods as such but are whole Villages or nowadays the Electoral wards based on the old Village parishes. The neighbourhoods are within these and are much smaller. Whinneybanks, Tollesby, Saltersgill and Berwick Hills are neighbourhoods whereas Acklam, Grove Hill and North Ormesby are the respective wards. Also if Nunthorpe and Ormesby are included in the list, surely Grangetown and Southbank should be included, after all they are far more closley related to Middlesbrough than Redcar even if they are not under Middlesbrough Council! dj_paul 24:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FILM

The statement "Six Bend Trap is the first ever feature film made in the Middlesbrough area" is out-dated and not true. There have been other feature films made in Middlesbrough, including Bacon-Based Bastards, Sub Zero and Gangsters In Love. There is some truth in the statement however. Six Blend Trap is the first feature film to be shot in the area using HD-TV cameras. --Joe 01:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Norf n Lights

Norf n Lights are an entertainer in the city. Fine, they can be listed with the other entertainers, but the extra section on them alone is inappropriate. Two entries in the External Links is probably overkill as well, but I'm on the fence of that one. I suggest removing the Norf n Lights section. (I'd have done it myself if Firefox didn't cut short on long pages.)
--BakerQ 00:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

They seem to be a sufficiently obscure outfit to me so as to be deservedly omitted completely, as is precisely what I have initiated. Such dubious bandying of promotive blurb as this, I wouldn't deem unfamiliar: the Saltburn article was at one point similarly plagued. But we're Wikipedians, so I'm sure we aptly can 'police' the situation... --MRacer 15:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Middlesbrough town / borough

I have posted a question at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_UK_subdivisions regarding the present split between the articles Middlesbrough and Middlesbrough (borough) and invite comments. I note that the articles are mutually contradictory, in that Middlesbrough claims that it is larger than Middlesbrough (borough), but Middlesbrough (borough) identifies places outside Middlesbrough that are in the borough; but these places are places that Middlesbrough claim are in Middlesbrough. Please leave general comments there. Morwen - Talk 23:07, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tees Valley Joint Strategy Unit

I've looked at their website for a source for this 180,000 figure, and can't find it. [1] shows their population figures, which are all entirely based on local authority and ward boundaries. I cannot find any attempt at them identifying a Greater Middlesbrough area. Morwen - Talk 09:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I have had trouble locating the exact file on the interent. It was a pdf that I found through google. It was a document from the Tees Valley Joint Strategy Unit but I did not access the file through the website itself. It may be best to remove the statement or change it to be viewed form a local rather than offical point of view until I can relocate this file. Being a local lad, any other references to the Urban area is purely a local matter and recognised by the locality. It is simply based on the fact that Middlesbrough/Eston is bordered by the Tees, A19, North Yorkshire and the ICI Wilton site so it becomes one Urban entity (although part of Teesside aswell) dj_paul84 00:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

You must understand the importance of properly referencing things. For example, in this edit, I made the population figure in the infobox actually agree with actual ONS data. I have not checked who put that figure of 182,800 in there, but I strongly frown upon misrepresenting sources in this way. Given the sort of misrepresentation and nonsense that are prevelant on the Middlesbrough articles, I am skeptical as to this figure as well. Morwen - Talk 08:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Here we are - it was you after all. Can you please justify this edit? Morwen - Talk 08:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Yes it was me who made the edits and after looking back on the previous , it sounds like the rantings of a madman. It is a touchy subject from where im from and something that I feel strongly about. In the edits it is apparent that I have sacrificed fact for local knowledge and opinion. As wikipedia is an encylopeadia its a meant for factual topics based on real factual evidence rather than opinon. As I am a local lad brought up in Eston, I have gone into each edit ignorantly believing that what is local knowledge on Teesside is also common to the rest of the UK. As I and most of Middlesbrough believe, Eston & Southbank is Middlesbrough but I now realise that this is not hard fact and there are no real statistics for this and the only official definition for Middlesbrough is based on the local authority. I was wondering if it would be appropriate to add info about what is perceived locally as middlesbrough, with the inclusion of what officially entails as Middlesbrough. BTW the 182,000 was not a Tees Valley Joint Strategy Unit stat but an informal way used by them to establish projects on Teesside based on the Middlesbrough PCT area (Middlesbrough & Eston). Sorry for any inconvenince as Im not an experience Wikipedian butI am very enthusiastic about my locality. In future I wil stick to facts and figures. dj_paul84 19:36, 30th October 2006 (UTC)

I am humbled by your acknowledgement of this. I'd be delighted to see information about local identity addde - this type of information is difficult to source but not impossible. Local newspapers, local history books, placename dictionaries, that sort of thing, probably exist and are usable as sources, in addition to the possibility of more academic works. Morwen - Talk 10:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Though they can't afford to shop there

Cheeky B******! Maybe people living in central Boro cannot afford it but people living in the suburban areas (who traditional are the better off ones anyway) can! Just look at the house prices in Yarm, Marton, Nunthorpe, Acklam! Love the way no-one can delet it aswell, Sly! dj_paul84 00:39 11, September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paul Emmett

Who is Paul Emmett? I've removed him from the list of notable musicians because he doesn't seem to be famous. Epimorph 12:51, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Middlesbrough query

Can anyone offer any information regarding the Middlesbrough registration district from 1901. I happened to come across a site which offers census data from 1901 and was curious about the Middlesbrough area. Now I know there is always controversy and split opinion when it comes to the "Southbank & Eston being part of Middlesbrough" arguement, but when I looked into the census data for Southbank, Ormesby and Eston they refer themselves to being within the Registration district of Middlesbrough as sub-districts of Middlesbrough and was also part of its parliamentary borough. What were these districts used for and do they constitute the said areas being a part of Middlesbrough in any form?

This is the site from which I found the data:

http://www.1901censusonline.com/results.asp?wci=locale_results&px=1&searchwci=locale_search —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.11.18.231 (talk) 15:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

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