Talk:Middle-earth Cycle

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If you are including Smith then Roverandom and Letters from Father Christmas ought to be in there as well since both reference 'Middle-earth'. At that, since Tolkien treated 'Middle-earth' as a mythical time in the history of our own world ALL of his stories were effectively connected to it. In any case, The Road Goes Ever On certainly ought to be listed as a purely Middle-earth text published during Tolkien's lifetime. That said... Tolkien himself drew distinctions between his Middle-earth texts and others, even saying that 'The Hobbit' and 'Tom Bombadil' were not originally intended to be connected at all, but got 'dragged in'. The article should also probably note that 'Middle-earth Cycle' is an invented term - it wasn't used by Tolkien himself or even most reviewers. --CBDunkerson 13:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I am not quite sure that 'referencing' Middle-earth is enough, especially if the reference is neither certain in the story nor necessary to it. I have not read Roverandom, and it's been quite some time since I read the Father Christmas stuff. Still, it is my understanding of the former, and my recollection of the later, that Middle-earth qua Middle-earth plays no role (carries no weight) in either. That is, the stories themselves don't make use of the Middle-earth (the world of the diminishing Elves, the old tales, the ennobled Men of the Downfall and their descendents, etc.) This, of course, is not the case with The Hobbit (does this need saying?), and even with Smith; in the latter we have a clear use of a mythology, or mytho-history, that pertains to Middle-earth (as a concept, that is; regardless of how hard it may be to link it directly to other specific events/characters of the Cycle). As for Tolkien's intentions, well, that is a conundrum; it is safe to say that, regardless of what he intended, The Hobbit and Bombadil surely were dragged in, and 'in' they remain. As for the music - it seems clear to me that, although the lyrics are all taken from existing published material (i.e., from existing poems already published and part of the Cycle), that it belongs as a meaningful 'version' of the work it contains. I'll amend the article to include it, and some of your other observations, and I will look for an 'authoritative' use of 'Middle-earth Cycle' (something in print, what?), though the term has been thrown around so much of late that it ought not to be too hard. Thank you for your improvements. black thorn of brethil 05:12, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Granted, the 'Father Christmas' connections are tenuous, but then those in 'Smith' are also. Roverandom, on the other hand, actually visits Aman. Both 'Father Christmas' and 'Roverandom' connect to the 'Man in the Moon' myth which shows consistent elements between those two sources, the early 'Silmarillion' texts, and even Lord of the Rings. At a certain level it becomes difficult to separate 'Middle-earth cycle' from 'fiction by Tolkien'. There is little which does not have some sort of connection. --CBDunkerson 12:25, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with your last point, though that does not need to be a problem for the concept of Middle-earth Cycle. What's most important is that the element in question demonstrate some dependence, as it were, on the core themes of the Cycle. If an element does not treat Middle-earth's themes as its (shall we say) 'guiding' principle (at least to a significant extent), then it is difficult to consider that element to be a 'part' of the Cycle (by definition). In thinking about non-fictional cycles, I am quite sure that there are elements traditionally 'contained' in cycles that otherwise might be offshoot, or even (in the sense they do not need the cycle's major themes to exist) stand-alone tales/narratives that have, somehow (by tradition?) gotten into the cycle. I will have to think of a good example. At any rate, as Tolkien's Cycle was a recent invention, so too is the concept of its 'cycle-ness', and so too will be the 'traditional' elements of that cycle. If you could maybe present some evidence from Roverandom and Father Christmas that shows that these works treat the same themes as does LoTR, then I think you're in business and the article ought to be amended. I know you have pointed out some things above, but I am thinking more about general themes. Cheers.black thorn of brethil 05:54, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

This gets into subjective interpretation and 'original research'. In my experience the term 'Middle-earth cycle' is seldom used and not clearly defined. I generally don't think of Smith as being part of 'Middle-earth' (thematically or otherwise) except to the extent that Tolkien meant Middle-earth to be our Earth and referenced its myths in many of his stories. Thus it seems like the 'Middle-earth cycle' is being defined and populated on Wikipedia based on newly established criteria... rather than existing elsewhere and being referenced/recorded here. If you are searching for a 'provenance' I'd suggest starting with Letters #131, where Tolkien does use the word 'cycle' to refer to his Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings stories, but does not define 'thematic similarities' or any other such criteria for inclusion. --CBDunkerson 13:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Literary Concept of 'Cycle'& its Applicability to Works of Tolkien

Tolkien's Middle-earth narratives and poems constitute a body of free-standing (i.e., read-alone) yet connected works that undertake the exposition of a set of common themes, and that contain ever-present internal references to each other. The common themes include (just a short list here) the idea of the ironic triumph of the Good via the suffering caused by Evil, the Evil caused of extreme individuation, the call to virtue-based ethics over utilitarian or pragmatic ethics, the almost mystical importance of the Sea, the entire concept of the elder race, and the idea of the 'fading' of glorious high cultures (physically [Eldar], ethically & physically [Edain], and as history [from 'fact' to 'legend' to 'myth' to 'folklore' to 'fairytale']). Ever-present internal references include common important characters (e.g., Varda, Bilbo Baggins, Galadriel), common important 'historical' facts (e.g., legend of Númenor, legend of Gondolin, everlasting land or realm of the Gods/Eldar-in-retreat), common geography (i.e., Middle-earth, Lonely Isle, Aman), and common cultures or societies (e.g., Eldar, Edain, Dwarves). What's more, these characters, histories, geographies and societies appear nowhere else.

Now consider these things:

1. "Cycle: a) a group of poems, plays, novels, or songs treating the same theme, b) a series of narratives dealing typically with the exploits of a legendary hero." (from Merriam-Webster).

2. "In general use, a literary cycle is any group of closely related works. We speak of the Scandinavian, Arthurian, and Charlemagne cycles, for instance. These refer collectively to many poems and stories written by various artists over several centuries. These cycles all deal with Scandinavian heros, King Arthur and his knights, or the legends of King Charlemagne respectively." (see http://guweb2.gonzaga.edu/faculty/wheeler/lit_terms_C.html)

3. "Literary cycles are groups of stories grouped around common figures, based on mythical figures or loosely on historic ones." (from, of all places, Literature cycle)

And last but not least:

4. "Do not laugh! But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen) I had a mind to make a body of more less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story - the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths -which I could dedicate simply to: England; to my country ... " (from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien pp 144-5. As noted in the comments by CB Dunkerson above, Tolkien made other reference to his works [at least some of them] as being parts of a 'cycle'.)

Is is not clear that he succeeded? This article is not based on conjecture or new ideas. It is based on facts, which are of course disputable. Please do improve it and remove wrong facts, or include necessary but missing right facts.black thorn of brethil 21:42, 27 February 2006 (UTC)