User talk:Michaelsanders

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Welcome!

Hello, Michaelsanders, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  --Bhadani 13:40, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] book 7, continuation of debate with John Reaves

Our discussion had got very off my original post to Reaves, so I thought it better to post reply here. I can't remember now where I saw the comment which I alluded to, about Rowling writing Dumbledore as a suicide bomber. So I can't be certain why I took the comment that way, or whether I am right. She said something like 'it is far far too late to change things now', and I think the conversation was why I took it that way. Plus the fact that it is essentially what is going on, and that actually heroes dying for a cause is a traditional literary theme. 'It is a far, far, better thing I do now than I have ever done before', (er, famous quote by I'm not sure where from ! tale of two cities, set in revolutionary France?) It is perhaps ironical that suicide bombers are currently demonised, yet volunteers leading raids to almost certain death in WW1 got medals. Rather a matter of perspective. But I suspect Rowling is a bit sensitive about Dumbledore's hero's sendoff because of the recent London bombing.

As to Rowling and book 7. I am not pessimistic. She has been criticised for erratic plotting, yet I do not see any major inconsistencies. There is a traditional approach in some books for the perspective in a book to jump about, maybe a few chapters about one set of heroes, then some about a different lot. Here she had 7 books, and although people have tried to draw out similarities between them, I suspect she tried to vary the plot as much as possible between each. Basic plot is always the same, Harry clobbers Voldemort AGAIN, but she has done a very much better job of making each book distinct than have quite a few authors I have read. It may be people are worrying because she seems to take up a theme then completely drops it in the next book, but this may be deliberate. So far (...) I don't see anything to suggest her plotting is anything other than brilliant. But that judgement will depend on the degree of minute plot detail she can seamlessly wrap up in the last book. She did comment on TV that it was going well, but she was amazed how many details there were to include. I think she meant exactly this. It could also have implied that there exists an essentially complete version of the book, but with lots of work needed to insert little detail. Might even have people checking it by now. Who knows.

She may not like fantasy, but she seems to have an excellent grasp of traditional myths, and studied it at university. I think it possible that her starting point was the tale of Beowulf, who I am sure lent his name to Dumbledore. I think her famous train journey where this supposedly began was her idling away the time seeing if she could think of a modernised version of Beowulf, which she had had to study. She actually won an award for HP where someone else won an award for a new translation of Beowulf. People asked her how she thought of her book compared to the other winner. Whether the book started with Beowulf or not, there is too much of that story in HP for her not to have included it deliberately, (but she meant us to know that, she used the name, almost all HP names are significant, so she must have been dead pleased). Now, I would love to get that into an article, but she won't say anything about it until after the last book, if she ever does.

I expect the last book will be much more like the others than people think, as far as its 'feel' goes. It will probably go outside of school, and sounds as though Voldemort will actually get to do some battle fighting on stage. Her prose reads ok to me, but it is perhaps what has been most criticised. I imagine she gets better with practice, so I don't imagine it will be worse than what we have so far, which is perfectly fine. She has always been writing 'popular' books, not ones where you need a dictionary to check the meaning of words. Dumbledore will no doubt make an appearance somehow, but if her claim than dead means dead,dead,dead, is really justifed, probably he will not be taking a very active part. But then, actually, he often has not. He has always been working behind the scenes, and i can easily see how Rowling would be able to introduce 'plans' he has already made and told people about. I think Snape is due for a total character turn around by the end of the book, and despite her protestations that she does not lie when she answers questions, I think she will be seen to have made some very constructive answers to certain past questions. Sandpiper 19:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wirral Grammar School for Boys and its History

Could you tell me anything you know about former German & French teacher Dr F P Gopsill at Wirral Grammar. Also, at your time in the school, what languages could be learnt?, and what other things do you know about the history of Classics and Languages teaching and the subjects taught in the school's history, since 1931? I would really like it if you could respond. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aconnell1993 (talk • contribs) 21:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Sirius Black (2)

just had a quick look at it, and there seem to be a few errors here and there. I don't see any reason to suppose Siius was miserable at 16. He seems to have always enjoyed himself. Perhaps what is written in the article is not what you mean:The thing is, that the line you put in is not necesarily mean he was miserable solely at home. It can be read as an add on point that he was miserable always. But I am not convinced he was necessarily miserable at home. He might have enjoyed baiying his parents untill they finally threw him out.Sandpiper

Which bit didn't you like about James trying to impress Lily? that's what it says. He keeps looking at her, even gets her to laugh, and then is really pissed when she tells him off. can't understand why she isn't impressed.

This is not stated explicitly, but step by step. James writes her initials, he keeps looking at the girls ,sys so every now and then, gets her to laugh at him sttacking Snape, and finally is shocked that she is not on his side. His loving her is explicit, his disappointment at her not being pleased by what he has done is also.Sandpiper
You claimed they attacked Snape because James " wished to impress Lily Evans, who James was in love with." There is no reason to think that - James responded to Sirius' complaints that he was 'bored' by saying, "This'll liven you up...look who it is...". They then attack Snape and mock him, before attacking him with magic. None of this could be reasonably considered to be an attempt to impress Lily, especially since James would presumably have known her character. Yes, James had a crush on her - 'in love' would be a little extreme - but there is no reason to think that the attack got her angry with him was meant to be an attempt to impress her. MS
Rowling made a comment re Lily telling James to get lost, that women do not always say what they mean. I take this to mean that the Lily's repudiation of James is not precisely what it appears.

Some more excerpts (OOPch28 SWM): James ...was now tracing the letters LE....Harry noticed that his father had a habit of rumpling up his hair as though to keep it from getting too tidy, and he also kept looking over at the girls by the waters edge...Snape lay panting on the ground. James and Sirius advanced on him, wands raised, James glancing over his shoulder at the girls at the waters edge as he went... 'Leave him alone!' James and Sirius looked around. James' free hand immediately jumped to his hair. It was one of the girls from the waters edge..Harry's mother. 'All right Evans? said James, and the tone of his voice was suddenly pleasant, deeper, more mature...'leave him alone'..'I will if you go out with me, Evans..Go out with me and I'll never lay a wand on old Snivelly again. ..I wouldn't go out with you if... Bad luck Prongs, said Sirius... Apologise to Evans! James roared at Snape...youre as bad as he is [Lily]...'What? yelped James 'I'd never call you a you know what.' 'Messing up your hair because you think it looks cool' [Lily]...'what is it with her? said James, trying and failing to look as though this was a throwaway questionm of no real importance to him.

He does everything to impress her. Now, why he thinks it is going to work is quite another matter. My guess is he knows Lily has just had a row with Snape, but I don't know that. Notice how upset he gets when Lily is insulted, and that Sirius knows what he was trying to do. Likely the whole school knew. Sandpiper

Where do we learn animagi are invulnerable to werewolf bites when transformed? Sandpiper 00:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

'a werewolf is only a danger to people, does not mean that 'transformed animagi are invulnerable to werewolves'.I didn't understand it mean that, and not did others. I don't know if anyone has asked rowling about it. Sandpiper 18:17, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
found you this quote 'Sirius was bleeding, there were gashes across his muzzle and back...' P.279 UK poa CH20. So Siruis suffered harm from lupins attack as a werewolf. Not invulnerable then. Sandpiper
I take it then that your definition of 'not dangerous' includes animals with a demonstrable ability to rip you to pieces. Tell that to the relatives of the last keeper mauled to death in a wildlife park. You can try to explain that the animagi are immune to being turned into werewolves, but you can't say that a werewolf is not dangerous to an animagi in animal form. That werewolf injured a dog as big as a bear. What exactly would have happened if he had a go at the rat? rat mince? Sandpiper

It's clear that James had a crush on Lily, yes, and those quotes show that. What they don't show is any indication that his bullying of Snape was to impress Lily, rather than to alleviate his and Sirius' boredom or because he hated Snape (both clearly stated in the text). Blackmail, perhaps - "go out with me, and I'll never lay a wand on old Snivelly again". But there is no reason to think it is to impress her. [MS]

Er, so why so many references in the text to his keep looking at the girls, and his obsession with one girl in particular. It is woven through the whole scene that James is interested in how she reacts to his actions. It even ends by explicitly saying that her reaction is important to him. Incidentally, it is incorrect that James and Sirius attacked Snape. Sirius only tagged along, James started it and the article ought to make that clear. James is the real bully in this scene.

As for the werewolf thing - Lupin said, "A werewolf is only a danger to people". Since people and animals are equally at risk of being shredded, he can only have been talking about the werewolf curse - which, as we saw when he attacked Sirius in PoA, didn't infect Sirius when in his animagical form. Michael Sanders 19:01, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

er, yes, exactly, so you cannot say that (animagi are invulnerable to werewolf bites when transformed), because they simply aren't. They may be protected from the magical aspect, presumably because they are not human, but they are not proteced from the physical aspect of the attack. Sandpiper 19:28, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] mindless editing with no valid contradictory arguement so far

Please stop changing the Richard the 1st article, the crossbowman "Dudo" is mentioned by that name in a 30 line poem by William the Breton, if you do not have access to this source; then I am sorry, but until you can justify your edit, stick to what you know. Bob2006ty 15:02, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Favor...

Hello, Michaelsanders! I think that you're a really great editor, so, do you think that you could sign my autograph book, maybe? It would be an honor if you did! See ya later, Michaelsanders! Cremepuff222 (talk, sign book) 23:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dorea Black

The Dorea Black section of the Black family tree (Harry Potter) article, the more I look at it the more the WP:OR issue bothers me. I know you at one time you were not overly fond of this policy, but overall I believe it is a good policy. I was wondering if you would be willing to either: rework it so doesn't have theories, delete it, or have some editors get together at it's talk page and discuss what should be done. (Duane543 20:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC))


[edit] Regarding your last revert about Dorea Black

Please note that Original Research is defined as something which :

  • "introduces a theory, method of solution, or any other original idea;
  • defines or introduces new terms (neologisms), or provides new definitions of existing terms;
  • introduces an argument without citing a reliable source who has made that argument in relation to the topic of the article; or
  • introduces an analysis, synthesis, explanation, or INTERPRETATION of published facts, opinions, or arguments without attributing that analysis, synthesis, explanation, or interpretation to a reliable source who has published the material in relation to the topic of the article."

As far as Dorea Black is concerned, the section stating that "Dorea's son would be James Potter" is indeed original research, because:

  • It is a theory, and an original idea (it has never been stated anywhere on the family tree or by JKR herself that Dorea was Jame's mother. It is an original idea proposed by the editors of the article).
  • this theory or idea is not cited using a reliable source (and a reliable source is not other theories on personal fansites).
  • It is of course an analysis of one of the entries of the family tree, it's a synthesis of various informations form this family tree and the books, and it's an interpretation of these facts: the interpretation has been built by linking between them various elements which have not yet been officially linked, and this precise "link" might prove false with further information in book 7.

"Original research is material that cannot be attributed to a reliable source." -> which is the case here.

Some might argue that the "original research article states that "straightforward mathematical calculations or logical deductions based on fully attributed data" are not original research. That's right, however in this particular situation, the "logical deductions" are creating new content, and giving a new signification to the original material used. In other words, these deductions are used to "advance a position", which is not supported by the "straightforward calculation" exception.

In other words, the section about Dorea Black is still original research and has nothing to do here. Thanks to people for not starting another edit war again. Either you can justify your edits, or you can't, and if you can't, please do not make them at all. Folken de Fanel 12:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as you're not willing to cooperate for the good of Wikipedia, I think it's necessary to remind you of some little things:
The version you're continuously restoring contains absolutely no element that have or can be attributed to an external source. It's mainly the own speculations, calculations and deductions of the editor of the article.
Fan theories, even if presented outside of Wikipedia, are no more than theories, and Wikipedia's rule of neutral point of view doesn't allow you to present these theories as likely to be true, nor to expand on them, to develop them or anything.
Please note that Original Research is not only the own speculations of the editor. It's content that doesn't originate from a reliable source (ie which originates from an unreliable source), and fan websites are not reliable source according to WP criteria. Folken de Fanel 18:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] my talk page

From now on, you are forbidden to write any message on my talk page, especially the provocative and full of lies messages that are your speciality.


Remember, I do not want to hear from you anymore. Mind your own business, and if you try to provoke me again, like you did some weeks ago, be sure it will backfire at you. Folken de Fanel 01:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Historical figure images

I am a new editor and I was unaware of the policy about linking to external .com references and have removed them. However, I think the images of these museum figures provide a lifelike reference to the subjects at each particular age. I obtained proper permission to use the pictures and added them to Wikimedia Commons under the CC attribution share-alike license for others to use as well. Mr. Stuart is the artist and should be at least acknowledged in the same way as a portrait painter. Mr. d'Aprix is the photographer and must be referenced under the terms of the CC attribution license. With the current caption, the image should not violate any Wikipedia guidelines. I respectfully request that you refrain from removing these images from Wikipedia articles in the future. Mharrsch 18:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Modern art

Apparently, you have appointed yourself gatekeeper of what types of art are suitable for inclusion in an article about any particular person. These figures are not "dolls" as you might be so willing to disdain, (in fact one figure represents months of work and if produced on request commands over $60,000 USD each) but meticulously researched representations of the person at a particular point in history and are included in several museum collections across the United States. They are certainly far more lifelike than most of the rather two-dimensional portraits produced at the time and give readers a more realistic view of the person discussed. I am also disturbed by your arrogance in dismissing a work of art simply because it is not widely known. I thought the internet was a place where everyone could have a chance to demonstrate their creativity. You obviously subscribe to the narrow-minded traditional approach that only elitist-recognized work is deemed worthy to be shown in a public forum. I fear there are many dusty, moth-eaten exhibits around the world that are taking up valuable exhibit space because of stogy curators who share your inflexible mindset. Mharrsch 14:47, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Indian branch of Bourbon

I am curious. Why did you remove the link about the Bourbons of India?

At least please give an explanation.

--Malaiya 00:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see:

The family was known before the book by Prince Michael of Greece.

--Malaiya 00:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

The Bourbons of India are mentioned in "India and Its Native Princes: Travels in Central India and in the Presidencies of Bombay and Bengal By Louis Rousselet, Charles Randolph Buckle", 1875.

--Malaiya 19:51, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Horcruxes and the Sorting Hat

I concede that I erred regarding the Sorting Hat being a Griffindor relic (btw which book is that line from?) but I'm still not convinced you phrased that sentence unequivocally. The impression I got from reading the paragraph in question (in the book) was that the sword was what Dumbledore was thinking of when he glanced at the shelf or case. There was no explicit mention of the sorting hat so I think that it should be expressed in a separate sentence. What do you think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zain Ebrahim111 (talk • contribs) 09:56, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Anne of Austria Succession Box

My apologies for not including an edit summary, I was in the process moving it down to the bottom of the page and standardizing it. Atropos 02:07, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that makes more sense about the regents, with implies that their consort had some sort of power, which was its intent I'm sure. For consorts, should I include with and a link to the actual regent? As to your second point, I take it last names (such as d'Albret), should be included, but "of Navarre" or "of Austria" should be excluded? Atropos 23:39, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Thankyou. I get all of my information from the articles themselves, and the ones that were there before I started working on it said House of Capet. Atropos 01:22, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sirius Black

Hello; perhaps you forgot to supply a summary for this edit, but it's a little rude to revert other peoples' edits without explaining why.

I deleted the section for being (in my view) impossible to rewrite in a manner conforming to WP:CITE and WP:OR, primarily because the Harry Potter series does not have omniscient narration — we never really see inside Sirius Black's head. I would like to hear your thoughts on this matter. — Feezo (Talk) 03:35, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cygnus Black

Hi. Don't know if you noticed my post on HOB chat re the dates of Cygnus Black. HP lexicon has revised them to 1929-1979, so he now dies in the same year as Regulus and his brother/Reggies father Orion Black. This appears to be information from the film set version of the tree (according to a mention on red hen). I havn't been able to pin down exactly what has gone on, I think I once saw some news posted on Mugglenet, but I don't know whether it is now gone or is still archived somewhere, but anyway I never read it. Anyway, we are still carrying his old dates. Do you have a view on what to do about this? Sandpiper 19:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC) ~Ok, I have sent an email to lexicon requesting further info.

[edit] 3RR

Warning

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly, as you are doing in Matilda of Scotland. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you., Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Sanders, I was giving you a good faith warning about WP:3RR. As I'm not in violation of 3RR and know perfectly well what it is, posting the same message on my talk page is pointless and petty. Would you rather I report you on WP:3RR? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
You reverted the page four times, Sanders. That's a violation. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Your first reversion, of 14:26, March 20, 2007, is interpretable as a revert, since you took it page to earlier content, on Dansbarnesdavies (21:24, January 22, 2007) (subject matter Edith v Matilda). I certainly would not have made this revert, as I've seen many receive blocks for this. I agree you would be very unlucky to get blocked for this revert, but it is plausible. Anyways, please understand that I gave you the above warning in good faith, and have no interest in a quarrel, only in improving the article. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mary Boleyn

Weasle wording? I am not sure what it mean. While I am interested in that period it is not effecting my opinions one way or the other. I do not care whether he is or is not Henry's child. I am not related to the guy. Currently, the dates as to when the affair started and when it ended between Henry VIII and Mary Boleyn is inconculsive. Therefore, although, the source is evidence that he could have been born in 1526, it is not proof of his paternity one way or the other. Nor should the sentence even suggest that. There is a dispute between historians as to the real accurate dates of the affair. And, even if his birth date was 100% proven there is still no way to positively identify his real father as the affair dates are unknown. Unless, there is a DNA test. Perhaps it would be better to remove the "date" part and only say his paternity is inconculsive. I hope my reason makes more sense to you. Virgosky 18:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel Wording

Michael - just a gentle reminder: stating in the Horcrux article wording like "It has been suggested that Voldemort only discovered that it had been destroyed..." appears to constitute Weasel Wording. As a rule of thumb, if the statement cannot stand alone as factual without opening it with a conditional preamble like Some fans believe... or Critics argue that... or It has been said that..., then it is probably not encyclopedic in terms of the topic under discussion itself. Please review the Avoid Weasel Wording article for some good guidelines. If you are going to add fan and critical opinions to an article, then it probably belongs in a separate "Fan reaction" or "Critical views" section, and not in the main descriptive part of the text, which is supposed to be purely factual and verifiable, defining the topic encyclopedically with a neutral tone. I do not personally have a problem with "us" documenting what a significant portion of the HP fan base might believe, or non-canonical statements that critics might publish, but I believe such matters should be segregated from the definitive description part, which ought to remain purely canonical (from Rowling), and not be infected with outside views without a wall of separation (that is a separate section). I understand you have found a new "reliable source" containing all sorts of original research that we have taken to posting as now "encyclopedic", due to arguments back on the Hallows page. These recent edits are so unlike you that I am a bit startled and confused - I thought someone had hijacked your screen name. Anyway I hope and trust this is not about making a point with other editors who have engaged you in battle over OR and such, which is a practice frowned upon. Thanks for your attention, have a great weekend. --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 15:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Follow up: I think perhaps the proper way of presenting John Granger's published analyses within the Harry Potter articles would be to present clearly, in-situ, that they are his views, and not necessarily canonical, Rowling-based material. For example, as a parallel, if we were discussing English naturalist Charles Darwin's various theories on evolution, and especially those published in his book On The Origin of Species, and then presented additional different-view material that was not from Darwin but from someone else, but still on the general theory of evolution, then we would write that in a separate contrasting section. Something like this: "Dr. Stephen Jay Gould reworked and extended Darwin's evolutionary principles by revising a key pillar in the central logic of Darwinian evolution, by presenting Punctuated equilibrium in his book The Panda's Thumb... " (and then elucidating on about Gould's variations on Darwin's theories). So for Horcruxes, we could legitimately state something like, (again in a separate section) "Esteemed University Professor John Granger of the Muggle Institute for Advanced Potter Studies suggests in his book Who Killed Albus Dumbledore? that ..." (and then presenting his original theories and analyses). This approach is clearer and more encyclopedic (and probably less antagonizing) than just blurting out his controversial theories mixed right in with the non-controversial canonical Rowling-stated material, and finishing it off with a tiny footnote stating the page number of his new book, which hardly anyone else has a copy of anyway. I'm simply trying to find a way where we can include your thoughts, and how they should be presented for consideration, and yet cut back on the edit reversion / original-research wars, which would seem to be intractable at this point. Thanks again for your attention. --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 23:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Welcome Back! --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 21:31, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Whoo boy, I see it has already started again. --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 21:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Update

OK I must have missed something about Granger's material in the fury of the edit reversion wars. I thought we were discussing posting material from a published book. The Self Published Source section from the Attribution policy states...
A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are usually not acceptable as sources (see Exceptions below).
Exceptions - As mentioned above there are a few specific situations in which a self-published source can be considered reliable. These include...
When a well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as his or her work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications. Editors should exercise caution for two reasons: first, if the information on the professional researcher's blog (or self-published equivalent) is really worth reporting, someone else will have done so; second, the information has been self-published, which means it has not been subject to any independent form of fact-checking.
If Granger's material is on an essentially personal web site run by Granger, and there is no peer review or other fact-checking (difficult for speculative original research about a fictional Potter universe), then I can see the cause for a strong difference of opinion. I still think we can consider posting Granger's theories in relevant, but they must be demoted to the status of regular (if well organized and sometimes well defended) fan speculation, not expert opinion. --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 00:11, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Update on the Update

I can accept this. I had the impression, in looking over the extended arguments, that Granger's Deathly Hallows-related work was basically posted on his blog page, where he published his theories on (ergo self-published speculation, and possibly disallowed as a reliable source); and then he also published a book on similar HP-related topics. If he indeed published a book with relevant material suitable for posting in the HP articles, and it has been (or can be) critically reviewed, and it contains high quality deductions based on the canonical Rowling materials, then I believe this is the sort of material that we can report on in the articles. I still insist that it should be segregated into in separate sections within the article - perhaps with titles like "Fan-based theories and critical reaction". We can expand the articles (and improve the overall relevance and quality) to include Granger's therories, not as canonical in the HP universe, but as verifiable logical deductions quoted from a published source (reliable or otherwise), keeping a neutral tone and POV, by stating again that this is Granger's work, and not Rowling's. It is original research on the part of Granger, but not us, so we can post it, just as we would report on any other new research efforts regarding, for example, particle physics or curing cancer. We need to take care not to sound like we are promoting Granger's work - thus pushing a POV agenda, but we also do not want to sound as if we are "in opposition" to Granger's views. --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 16:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Michael and Folken and Sandpiper (etc).: The rules for writing articles about fiction are discussed at WP:Notability (fiction) and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) and at related articles linked there. Please step back, and take some time to study those policies and guidelines at your earliest convenience. The policy on writing about fiction states: "Plot summaries. Wikipedia articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic.". Mr. Granger's work would qualify as sourced analysis, I believe. I agree that Granger's work is speculative and original research, but it is NOT original research or speculative for us to discuss his analyses in the articles, with proper sourcing for verifiability. He is not just any fan, so this does NOT open the door to just anyone posting their original research. The Wikipedia policy not only ALLOWS us to present critical analyses of works of fiction, it essentially REQUIRES us to do so, to make good articles. --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 19:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Block

You have been blocked for 48 hours for edit warring on Horcrux. You are also warned about edit warring on Regulus Black. Please take the time to review our WP:3RR policy, and note that a content dispute, or dispute about sourcing, does not justify violating WP:3RR (except in WP:BLP cases, which this is not). This is your 4th block in 3 months. Be advised that if you keep violating our policies, your blocks will become progressively longer. I hope you use the time off to carefully consider your options and future conduct here. Thanks, Crum375 19:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Marie Antoinette

Please stop unilaterally changing the name of this page. There have been two discussions about the name on the talk page, one in June 2005, the other in January 2006. The name "Marie Antoinette" is the one which has received consensus. One editor does not have the right to overrule that consensus, even if he thinks other people are wrong. If you think there should be a change, please discuss it on the talk page. Noel S McFerran 17:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I know the naming conventions since I actively work on them (as much cannot be said about you at this time. I am also well aware (as is most of the WP community) that naming conventions for monarchs do not trump a universal name such as Marie Antoinette. For the sake of this community, cease your antics. I have no patience to entertain your "explanations" to me when I have been dealing with this for years. You are in the wrong here. You still have an opportunity to turn yourself around. "We" don't name her "of Austria". You do. Charles 04:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dauphins

I am separating the redirects. Please do not move the pages until I am at least done, okay? Charles 16:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Women of the Napoleonic Era

Excuse me, but you keep reverting back edits on these pages which are historically inconsistent. It is wrong to state that Marie Antoinette was Joséphine's predecessor as 'Empress of the French'. Although she was certainly her predecessor as consort to the French Head of State she should be listed as so in a SEPERATE box from the title 'Empress of the French'. This makes things far more clearer to the average viewer!

But you don't seem to get the point- this isn't about a change of sexes or even the reversion to an old title, but the creation of an entirely new one which must be elaborate - it is the same on other monarchical pages such as the Queen Mother etc. who was the last Empress of India.

The title 'Empress of the French' also ceased to exist - it wasn't used after Marie Louise until Napoleon III's wife! And before Joséphine, Marie Antoinette wasn't called 'Empress of the French'. It is exactly the same with 'Empress of India' - Queen Victoria was the first - or why don't you go through and imply that her predecessor, William IV was known as 'Emperor of India'?

The ancien régime monarchy was something UTTERLY different from the Napoleonic - Napoleon etc. and historians in general most definitely do not see the two as something sequential! It is therefore VITAL that we distinguish the titles as is custom on other pages on Wikipedia. The title 'Empress of the French' just like 'Empress of India' did not exist prior to 1804 and I am not refuting your case that there was a 'Queen of the French' but that is something fundamentally different and was abolished in 1792!

And I am indeed showing succession if you'd only bother to look! I am perfectly in keeping with the protocol demanded by Wikipedia as are the other pages of titular succession. And I haven't 'made up' a title - I have italisised it implying that it was not a title!

[edit] Re: Marie Louise

The intro line generally gives the native form and anglicizations are used elsewhere. Charles 11:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

If you say that there is not a Marie Louise of Austria, why is there a Marie Antoinette of Austria? The name was given in the first lines, as is standard. The point of the matter is that there are references to a Marie Louise of Austria but much fewer for a Marie Antoinette of Austria. Marie Louise is Archduchess Maria Ludovica in the first line of the text and she is also known as Marie Louise of Austria. That's why it's okay. Charles 11:57, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
There is usage for Archduchess Marie Louise of Austria. That is just one way by which she is commonly known. Sorry, I didn't choose common names. Charles 12:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] German form of name

Do you know if the empress was Maria Luisa or Maria Ludovica in her native Austria? The intro to the article currently uses both forms. Charles 15:10, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I do now recall the practise of christenings with with Latin names. I think that it should be noted somehow that this was the practice rather than someone thinking that it is a mistake. Charles 19:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Succession boxes

Currently, there is no set convention for the changes in title/house. Preferably to me, the incumbent at the time would be listed as they were titled and any successor with a different title would just be listed with the changed title in parenthesis. Currently, with Marie Antoinette, I feel that there are way too many title changes going on. One box should say:

  • Queen of France and Navarre (1774-1791)
  • Queen of the French (1791-1792)
  • Queen of France and Navarre (1792-1793)

There are no interventing consorts above.

Then it should say succeeded by: Joséphine de Beauharnais (Empress of the French) (as it currently seems to stand). The titular title can remain separate.

I think it's preferable to show people succeeding people, even if the title changes. A person succeeding themselves is nonsensical to me. The status of the country did not change as would be the case in a place like Baden (margraviate to grand duchy) or Prussia (duchy to kingdom). But that's my opinion. Charles 12:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Marie Jeanne of Savoy-Nemours

Marie Jeanne is the form used most often for this princess. Yes, it is odd (because her sister is almost always treated as "Maria" right beside her), but that is how it is. Charles 16:13, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No

Uhm, no. And, before you start an edit war, which from your history I can see you are good at it. I am cleaning up the article. I fixed the reference section so that people will know who's information comes from where. I also added in which historians suggest what. And, if you actually read the article you could see that several sentences were repeated several times. Virgosky 16:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

You really should stop getting so angry and accusing people of things. The sources are in there and just because you do not like where they does not mean they are being removed. These are not your articles and this is not your website.Also, you can not say "most historians" without sourcing and saying which ones say what. Two people are not "most historians". Also, in the part where it says "Mary's defenders say" that should not be in there it is not sourced. Furthermore, unless you can source more historians, Weir and Ives are the only two who say Catherine Carey was born later. Virgosky 17:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

No, I am trying to point out which historians say what. Weir and Ives believe she was not Henry's child. How is wanting more sources for historians to prove she is not his child POV? If you say "most historians" you have to back it up. Virgosky 17:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Please stop accusing me of things that make no sense. What are you talking about? Are you even reading what I am saying? I said it was during this period Henry fell in love with her and it was. It does not matter whether you say it was later or during that period. Either one works. So why are you fighting with me for no reason? Please source the exact dates of when the affair started and ended. Virgosky 17:26, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

That is your POV. Do not remove sourced information. Is that not what you are always yelling at other editors about? So, it is okay for source information to stay if you agree with it? However, if it is something you do not agree with, then it okay to remove the information whether it is sourced or not? Sounds like POV thinking to me. Anyway, he is a notable person since the Britian's Real Monarch and someone created an article for him. Therefore, there is no harm in mentioning him. Again, do not tell others what to do when you clearly do not always follow the rules either. Virgosky 19:59, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I understand where you are coming from now and that is all you had to say. For a minute, I thought you were arguing with me just to fight as we have disagreed several times on the management of this article. I assumed many people would know who he is now based on the documentary, but you make a good point. Virgosky 20:19, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I would but you would continue to delete it and start another edit war. I would prefer to see some articles on this site not subjected to your edit wars. Virgosky 20:29, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Virgosky 20:39, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing my explanation

I'm not sure why you removed my explanation when you replied to my comment but I've replaced it. Please don't edit my posts. Leebo T/C 17:19, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Royal Houses

I just wanted to thank you for making some corrections to my succession boxes on various royal houses throughout Europe. I too am a History student and very passionate about it. Keep up the good work. -Prezboy1 00:23, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No personal attacks please

With regards to your comments on Talk:Horcrux: Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks will lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you.Folken de Fanel 01:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

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