Talk:Michiru Kaioh/Archive 01

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Attack

is Neptune's manga-only sttack (her only "super" attack) Violin Tide, or Violent Tide? 12.76.166.136 13:29, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually it is Violon Tide [1] Violon is the French word for Violin [2], "Galactia Violent Tide" is what TokyoPop called the evil version of the attack by mistake [3]. So Violin is more correct than Violent but Violon is the most accurate transliteration GracieLizzie 11:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
It's Violin Tide (Viorin Taido in furigana) Violent Tide, etc are wrong, since the kanji read and translate roughly into "Violin Tide" Only later did the Galatica Violin Tide get used--I tried to edit that manga. >.<;; Unfortunately for me, it was too late. Anyway, I have scans to proove it.
Hitsuji Kinno 22:38, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Michiru's sexuality

  • Wikipedia is not the place to air out fancrufty debates. Naoko Takeuchi has said that Michiru and Haruka are lesbian. End of debate as far as canon is concerned. Danny Lilithborne 03:13, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
    • I added a little of it back in, but only using evidence from the anime to contrast it with the manga version. In the manga she is clearly a strict lesbian by Naoko's own words. In the anime, where Naoko does not control canon as much, Michiru does flirt with guys (such as Seiya when he's male). This means there's a difference in how Michiru acts around guys in the manga and anime and this should be noted in the "Variations" section. Xuanwu 02:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
      • On the other hand, it's pretty ambiguous whether she's flirting with Seiya just to flirt, or because she's suspicious of him and trying to learn something! --Masamage 03:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I think she was just being a flirt. Being that she is more graceful and feminine than Haruka, she has more male admirers and she uses that. Haruka, on the other hand will flirt with another girl outright. Given that, nothing will change how they feel about each other. -SaturnYoshi 14:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Yeah. I've never thought she was remotely attracted to Seiya, but I guess it's unknowable. :) --Masamage 18:05, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay. How about just noting that she flirts with guys (or at least Seiya) in the anime, but not in the manga? Then let the reader make up their own mind whether she's a lesbian or bi in the anime. Xuanwu 02:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Sounds great! Saying exactly what we know, no more or less. --Masamage 03:22, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The section about Seiya is always female in manga is wrong, like the anime, 3 lights are both male and female also in manga otherwise the flirt of Seiya with Usagi in manga would have been lesbian ish. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yajaec (talk • contribs).

Please sign your posts! You can do this by typing four tildes (~) at the end.
Actually, it turns out the Starlights were indeed always female in the manga. Here's a quote from Naoko Takeuchi on the subject: "The Sailor Starlights were supposed to have even more minor roles than the akuma. So when it looked like they were gonna get leading roles in the anime, I was totally surprised! Even more surprising, before transforming into Sailor Senshi they were men?! I was really shocked to learn that."
Seiya doesn't really flirt with Usagi in the manga, either, they just become close friends. To the extent that there is flirtation, yeah, I guess it's "lesbianish," but only on Seiya's part. The whole subplot about them being potential romantic partners was invented for the anime, though. --Masamage 18:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Foreign names really needed?

Please discuss here whether to include foreign names when they do not match the english name. Thanks. -- ReyBrujo 03:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Princesses Article

Just so you all know, I've made a new article at Princesses (Sailor Moon). The merge notices are gone now, because that group of stubs has been cleared up. Now that it's done, please feel free to edit and cite to your heart's content! ^_^ -Masamage 20:54, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Consistency

This article is being edited for consistency with the Ami Mizuno, Rei Hino, Makoto Kino, and Minako Aino articles, as part of the new WikiProject, and as discussed in Talk:Sailor Moon. Stay tuned! --Masamage 17:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Mostly done, as are Haruka Tenoh and Setsuna Meioh. I'm still planning on rewriting the 'Profile' and 'Variations' sections, but will take something of a break first.
The Outer Senshi profiles really need new lead images. If you check out the Inners bios, they all match; we're looking for a set with that kind of consistancy and quality, if it's at all possible. Please look around! --Masamage 19:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I must object the current infobox image. Magazine covers should not be used to illustrate a character unless you are talking about the appearance of the character in that cover (as per the seventh counterexample of Fair use). -- ReyBrujo 20:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Let's hurry and find a new one. --Masamage 20:32, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Video game attack

This was removed: "Splash Edge- Sailor Neptune does an uppercute attack like Ryu and Ken in Street Fighter, this is only shown on the Sailor Moon SNES and PSX videogames. In SNES version, when used as a finish attack, the uppercute turns into a rising water dragon."

...on the basis that information on video-game only attacks might be better-suited to the eventual Sailor Moon video games article. I'm just preserving it here so that we can refer to it when the time comes. --Masamage 07:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Tarakazuka musumeyaku?

I feel that Michiru is probably meant to be a musumeyaku (female role) counterpart to Haruka's otokoyaku (male role) from the Tarakazuka Revue. Her bio here http://www.kurozuki.com/takeuchi/sailormoon/settei.html just says 'affiliated with', though. Not sure if that counts.  :( - Malkinann 08:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Super forms

Could this edit summary be clarified? "their regular forms *are* their Super forms :/"

I just don't understand what it means. ^_^; Thanks! --Masamage 23:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

  • The Outer Senshi don't have "Super" Sailor forms because that's what their regular forms are, unlike the Inner Senshi who got their Super forms in the Super season. Super! x_x Danny Lilithborne 23:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    Um...the Outer Senshi get their Super forms at the beginning of the Stars season with the help of Sailor Saturn. Their costumes change and everything. --Masamage 23:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    Those aren't Super forms, they're... I don't even know what they're called. Some call them "Eternal" forms and others call them "SailorStar" forms. I'm not touching that one. Danny Lilithborne 23:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    I don't think we're talking about the same thing.
    • Normal form - Normal sleeves, no stripes on collar, planet on choker, circle in middle of bow
    • Super form - Superish sleeves, stripes on collar, star on choker, heart in middle of bow
    • Final form - Eternalish sleeves, skirt, gloves, boots. Star in middle of bow. Manga only!
    --Masamage 23:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    More reason to throw tomatoes at the anime producers ^_^ Danny Lilithborne 23:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    Sniggle. XD Anyway, I do think it's a safe assumption to call those Super forms. It's not explicitly stated, but they are identical to the Super forms of the Inner Senshi. (The final form unfortunately isn't named for any of them other than Sailor Moon, hence all the fan namings and the general preference of calling it nothing at all.) --Masamage 23:45, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Sooo, I'm thinkin' that adding alternate forms to each Senshi's infobox is probably a bad idea because a) we don't know what some of them are called, and b) they're not seperate aliases. People may not distinguish Usagi from Sailor Moon, but nobody will think Super Sailor Moon and Eternal Sailor Moon are different people. This also helps free up some room in that area of the infoboxes, which are pretty choked. --Masamage 18:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Hoshi means planet

Hoshi/Sei in the context of Kinsei, etc can mean planet, and not *just* star. (Jeffrey's dictionary) Usually it's ambiguous. Making Kimokusei ambiguous whether this is a planet or a solar system. At any rate, Neptune is a planet, so it should read "planet" not star for Kaiohsei... changing. --Hitsuji Kinno 08:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Dub... *cough*

What the dub exactly said was that Michelle and Amara grew up together and were very close cousins (they were explaining this to Serena in the car). However, the dub later showed this to be an outright lie as it showed and dubbed the fact that Amara and Michelle met, much, much later. (I was sure they were going to cut that episode). ^^;; I was taking notes. After that it was never mentioned they were cousins again, making Michelle and Amara less honorable... meaning they lied outright considering the events of the episode. *cough* Cousins that grew up together, don't meet for the first time later. I don't know if anyone else caught this... ^^;; Oh and the "teenager" stereotypical register spoken, oh it was painful to hear from them... --;; Note though that it's not illegal to marry a cousin in Japan, (if I remember right.), though civil unions and same-sex marriages are not generally allowed... Anyhow, Michelle and Amara are liars. --Hitsuji Kinno 08:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Huh. The only reference that I remembered about the cousins thing was 'Amy' being like, "I wonder why they're entering the best couple contest? They're both girls, and cousins too!" It made me giggle my head off because it was in such a panic to explain itself. --Masamage 09:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe that was later, this was the first explanation of it... which was horrid, because it was directly followed by the episode where they meet for the first time. I need to dig up the videos to find it. But looks like Michelle and Amara are lying. *laughs* I almost died because it was like waiting for the other shoe to drop and then finding out that they didn't cut the episode that would disprove that sentence. --Hitsuji Kinno 08:46, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Haruka v Michiru

Haruka has a big paragraphs about how she's a lesbian, then Michiru's is downplayed in comparison... Isn't this kind of strange to anyone? How can being "butch" qualify someone to be "more" lesbian than someone else. O.o;; Either both should have the second paragraph and say they BOTH are well known, whereas Michiru would be the "female" half with female speech and Haruka is the "male" half with male mannerisms or they should both be brought down to Michiru's article. (I would vote the former, not the latter) What I'm saying is that the articles should match each other on homosexuality, rather than following the stereotypes and perceptions of homosexuality. Handle it evenly for both characters. Any disagreements? *will edit the article after stats are done* (Some sections deal with her Senshi form should be moved to the Senshi form) So I'd like feedback before I do the separation of the manga, anime, and fact checking. --Hitsuji Kinno 08:46, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that they should match. I mean, how can it say that Haruka is a famous out of the closet gay character and not Michiru? They're both clearly lesbian and I don't think that one can say that Haruka is "more gay" than Michiru. Also, in my experience, perceptions and stereotypes aren't always reliable. -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 09:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Michiru's definitely needs to talk about it more, especially because she was the one who first propositioned Haruka. Whatever Haruka knew about her sexuality, Michiru was already well aware of and comfortable with being attracted to women. --Masamage 20:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Everyone pretty much "knew" that Haruka was gay. However, I don't think that it's as obvious with Michiru. Haruka didn't even know. Perhaps it was Haruka that allowed her to be herself. I think that besides being a soldier, her sexuality also played a part in her being viewed as an outcast. She had trouble getting close to people for fear of what they might think if her secret was known. Haruka gave her the strength to be open and not care what others think. Just some thoughts. -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 03:06, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't remember any indication that Haruka had ever been in a relationship with anyone before Michiru; I just watched the episodes. --Masamage 04:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not saying that Haruka was involved with anyone else, just that it seems kind of obvious that she is gay. But with Michiru, not so much. -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 08:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The irony is that Ikuhara seems to like to have the "female" gay character be in more control over the "male" gay character. This didn't play out in the manga, but it did play out in Utena, which Ikuhara directed. Since Michiru instigated the relationship, and often told Haruka about what she was an was not supposed to do (Don't come near me, don't take the pen, are you sure you want to do this. We must keep focused on the Mission...) it would seem to me Michiru is more confident in her sexuality than Haruka who seemed truly surprised at Michiru in the episode with Elza. (Flashback episode) In the manga they are more equals in the relationship, and they work together without one being in more charge than the other... But telling me one is clearly more lesbian than another is kind of stereotypical--many people look at the cast when they know nothing of the series and then I mention two are gay, they guess at Haruka and Setsuna. That goes to show you that no one can tell if you are virgin or not, gay or not. And in anime it gets sketchier by the second where female characters may not be gay, but fantasize about being gay and even have someone they wish they could be in love with... I've met people who are gay and they surprised me and sometimes even themselves when they either found out or told me. So there is no way to "tell" sometimes they don't find out until they fall in love with someone of the same sex. Anyhow is there any disent on including the same bulk that Haruka has to this article? I don't see any, just discussion on what makes a person gay. =P Clue: They like the same sex. That's it. Nothing special behind it. Gender is not sexuality (as was pounded into my head 2 weeks ago in Cultural Anthro class)--Hitsuji Kinno 05:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Nope, no problem with it at all. All I want is some mention of exactly the Michiru anime stuff you cite, because I think it's awesome. :) --Masamage 05:17, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
  • There's a term used in the gay and lesbian community for one such as Michiru - "Lipstick Lesbian" are just the every day girl type. Haruka would be the "butch" lesbian. If it's about the article, I think it's only fair to reflect both equally since they are a team and partner through out the series. But if the article is talking about lesbian as the topic, then yes, it would be obvious that Michiru is less suspected as lesbian.Yajaec 16:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I certainly agree that they're equal and that Michiru is the femme of the two. I just don't think Haruka had to be gay just because she's guyish. Makoto is guyish. Ami has short hair. All three members of the Amazon Trio are crossdressers, but only one is gay. Ukyo from Ranma 1/2 dresses as a guy all the time--not gay. All this is saying nothing of people I know in real life. o_O --Masamage 17:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean you don't think Haruka had to be gay ??? What are we talking about again? =P. Didn't the author said that Haruka and Michiru are gay?!!Yajaec 17:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
No need to yell at me. I'm disagreeing with the statements that Haruka is "obviously" gay and that "Everyone pretty much knew" before she even had a girlfriend. That's speculation, pure and simple. --Masamage 19:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry that wasn't yelling (usually be all cap if yelling) I was confused by what you said. Now that you explained, I understand the whole picture now, thanks.Yajaec 19:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it's partially because Haruka was such a damned flirt. "Don't worry, you've still got a chance" etc etc. But yes, we probably need more on Michiru. - Malkinann 02:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Stats update

I admit I deleted some "hobbies" swimming, playing the violin, and painting to be precise. However, these are not listed in the manga nor mentioned in the anime as hobbies. This is more like how she makes money and things she is good at... once you make money at it, I don't think it's exactly a hobby, but more of a profession. Swimming one can argue for... but it wasn't really established as a hobby. In the manga she never really went swimming and it only appeared in one anime episode--the competition against Ami. So I cut it, but someone can dispute it and then I'll add in the references. (But it's kind of repetitive considering her club affiliations and so on) I cut the physical attributes as usual since that's not a stat and unless people are blind I don't think it's really needed. I'm missing some references again, but I'll dig them up, I just want to get through the stats of all the Sailors, then do the final clean up of references. I swear it's out there, because I pulled them from my own pages which means they have a reference. Soldier title... I left out unknown stats again. If this offends anyone tell me. --Hitsuji Kinno 05:36, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

She also swims in episode 110, the one where the Talismans appear, and it seems pretty clear she's doing that to relax. I think calling that a hobby is okay. Otherwise, sounds good! --Masamage 07:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
So noted and referenced. Thanks. I added a reference for the clubs. And someone thought it was fun to add art club, but there is no support for that manga side. So I deleted it, because I don't remember that club being mentioned anime side either. I'm still tracking down the gemstones and the soldier title references. >.<;; My younger self would remember... --;; I was such a SM geek then. --Hitsuji Kinno 07:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I noticed the art club thing and found it suspicious, but since you've been immersed in the stats sources I left it to you to weed out. Glad that's done. :) Let me know if I can help with any of this stuff. --Masamage 07:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Brad "cutest guy in the school"

This line was added to the dub, in the episode where they explain what the first kiss ever was in the original and in the dub what " Michelle's first kiss was" followed by the line "My sweet Brad I wonder where he is today" Might be worth mentioning. Personally they seemed to throw in the cousins line after the couple thing every chance they got. (Documented better at Haruka's page) --Hitsuji Kinno 06:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Eww. Sure, that seems good for inclusion. I think I'd barf on my keyboard if I tried it, though. --Masamage 09:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I added it and a few other things I painfully learned during the course of it. >.<;; I may as well share my pain. I gave specific episode numbers for the English, but linked the Japanese. It probably needs a bit of copy editing. So go ahead. I'm often blind to my own mistakes. --Hitsuji Kinno 16:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
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