Talk:Michelle Bachelet
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[edit] Greek Chilean?
What's all this thing about Bachelet being Greek Chilean? This is definitely untrue.
- On the contrary, the article had genealogy on her great-grandmother came from Greece. I have no clue or idea on the exactness of Bachelet's ancestry.
You may as well study on George W. Bush 's, Bill Clinton 's and Condoleeza Rice's family origins in their articles. I won't state she's Greek though. If you wonder my last name is from, it's Japanese? No. Irish? No. Lithuanian? No. Persian? No. or Zairene? No. I'm from the United States of Dutch/Javanese and English descent, mind you. There's no need to discuss it in the talk page, my apologies. --- G. Sageha
[edit] Father died naturally
Her father wasn't tortured and killed. He died from natural dead (removing the sentence so someone else writes it again). I can check for a source... I think that even Bachelet's homepage may have that info. What DID hapen to her father is that he was expelled of the military.
- Oh please. He was jailed and severely tortured, and died days later while hospitalized. I don't even think this is disputed. —Cantus…☎ 04:44, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
- Bachelet was also tortured on the worst torturing camp the dictatorship had, wich was "Villa Grimaldi".
Her father alberto bachelet was tortured, but he died 12/03/1974 because of a heartheache(after a baskeball match in jail), heart problems that had been sufer since 1969 (Michelle brother died from a heart attack also at age of 54).
She and her mother stay in jail for only 9 days (january 1975), for hard interrogations. She follow her exile mother to australia, the east germany. Returnig to Chile in 1979 in the midle of Pinochet goverment. (tortures and other staff its only for marketin porpuse for campaing, if someon ist torture he would never come back if her torturous still in govermnet)
- So just to be certain, the line is that Alberto Bachelet would have died on 12/03/1974 even if he had never undergone any sort of torture? LamontCranston 02:34, 18 January 2006
You talk about cause&effect, multiples causes multiples effects. What concern us its the direct effect, Alberto Bachellet had a heart problem. He sufered tortures, but tortures are no the direct cause of his death as it was the basketball game. The militar not wanted to kill Alberto Bachellet, they wanted answers, deah people dont give answers. Of course for politics porpuse and for news around world, its better to have a martyr murdered in terrible torures than a prisionare that died afeter a basketball match in prison.
- So - "What concern us its the direct effect, Alberto Bachellet had a heart problem. He sufered tortures, but tortures are no the direct cause of his death" - now you admit it was an indirect cause? And you did not answer my question, so I shall rephrase it: if he had not been tortured would he have died on 12/03/1974? And as for "they wanted answers, deah people dont give answers", well that maxim has not prevented the US military in Iraq & Afganistan from torturing people death. LamontCranston 08:17, 18 January 2006
If you want to know about cause&effect read about "condictio sine qua non theory" of von bury and von lizt(dont want to spend so much space in theorys mas no concer to others). Yours answer: if he didnt play basketball match and didnt have a heart disease, he wouldnt died at 12/03/1974. All I said its that soldiers didnt torture him to death. US soldiers are not an example to us, i hate comparisons like this a war between contrys and a civil war. Referin to Chile if they want to kill someones they throw them from helicopters, they shot them down,etc but no eone can think about waiting someone to sufer a heart attack.
- I did not say they tortured him to death, my questions were in regards to the torture playing a contributing factor, something you dance around and instead say the death is exclusively the fault of a genetic condition and a game of basketball. Now returning to my two questions: 1) Alberto Bachelet would have died on 12/03/1974 even if he had never undergone any sort of torture? 2) if he had not been tortured would he have died on 12/03/1974? - The reason why I keep asking is because I find the rationale that the torture happened in an vacuum and had no physical affect on him whatsoever to be preposterous. LamontCranston
11:35, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Thats what you think. I believe wikipedia works on facts not personal thoughts (ex:torture were a contributing factor). Facts are: 1)11/09/1973 Alberto was arrested in the ministry of defence he was release the same day. 2)14/09/1973 Alberto was arrested in his house and soldiers took him to the Air Force Academy(FACH)then he was taken to the FACH hospital(because oh his heart problems). In October he was confined in his house (house arrest). 3)18/12/1973 he was prosecuted because of his reiteratives reunions with socialist and MIR leaders. He was acusse for planning a belical action against air base "el bosque".He was taken to Public Jail. 4)12/03/1974 He died at public Jail at age of 51 because of a heart attack (the 4 heart attack in his life). A FACH doctor help him (the doctor was arrested and shared the cell with alberto). Also a prison nurse aid him but eve so he died.
-About playing basketball his wife (Angela Jeria)said: Beto was a sportman he plays soccer, basketball, tennis and was champison of skeet shooting. -1968: Alberto Bachelet suffers a heart attack. These incident influenced Michelle to study medicine. -Michelle"s brother Alberto died because of heart attack at the age of 51 in US and not by tortures. (Michelle its 54 hope she no have same heart problem). LamontCranston (shadow)you are political influenced, you dont write about facts you write about your personal wishes (Bachelet"s father a martyr diying because of several tortures, been inocent of all charges, a saint murdered by sadistic soldiers who wants him to suffer a heart attack). Now with your political side friend you can vadalise wikipedia for political marketing porpuse (new terrorist). Hope wikipedia editors censorship subjetive thoughts in all articles. I hope so,not to find PInochet,Allende, Marx, Hitler,etc. been saints a fighters for peace in his respectives articles.
- I noticed in that little history that you omit the torture, even though you admit it happened. Shortly after that you just become abusive, make outlandish claims, make disgusting comparisons, et cetera and as such I feel that we can no longer continue this debate. LamontCranston 15:20, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
-
- I wonder cantus knew her personally or has an eye on current events to clarify the dispute. I wonder her genealogy goes back to Northern France, since my father's grandaunt name is 'Bachelet' or something close. It's a coincidence for me to visit a country, then learned a president is related to me, lol.
I don't know, but not the only one. TV night show host Conan O'Brien got to meet the Finnish president, Tarja Halonen, a woman resemble him as some of his fans in Finland told him. I doubt that either but made world headlines. Also to note Boulogne-de-Mer, France (my great-grandaunt's hometown) is where South American liberator Simon Bolivar died. Ironic isn't it? I seen his statute at the Frank Gilcrease museum in Tulsa, Ok. donated by American immigrants of South America, some are Cherokee indian farmers and my Mom's paternal side are Cherokees from Oklahoma. More irony.
And my home state Cal. had a history of Chileans date back to the gold rush. Irony keeps on going. That's why wikipedia interests me and somehow the world is full of surprising oddball facts, since truth is stranger than fiction.+207.200.116.197 09:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- You put it clearly on your interests in Sra. Bachelet. The article has stated her genealogy to have Spanish, French, Greek and other European roots. I still refer her Chilean no matter where her ancestry is, and she isn't the only Chilean politican of French descent. Clear reliable sources on Augusto Pinochet 's article shows he had French background. I have no idea who you are or where you're from, keep it in the subject or an admin may take the post down. I don't make Wikipedia rules, but I'm enforcing the basic rules on grammar to clean up this talk page. -- G. Sageha
[edit] AOL news' Bachelet biography
The AOL news /API article from 1/15/2006 when Michele Bachelet was elected, stated her career was a (corrected) Pediatrician. But the wikipedia article has no mention of that, so my brain light up on this matter. Can anyone find more information to verify what the AOL news/API release wrote down? I'm not able to find it nor has the time to, then leave a reply and source to verify it...AOL or API or Chilean news sources. + 207.200.116.197 03:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Correction: Pediatrician. I apologize for typing the wrong word. Then my memory was gray here. The wikipedia biographical article on wikipedia states her study in pediatrics is correct. It states her career shifted away from medical studies to her concern with national politics. + 207.200.116.197 08:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
-
- Good thinking. Always check before you state anything on Sra. Bachelet. Wikipedia strongly advises not to type false, libellious or slanderous facts on anyone's (celebrities or public figures) life and personality. However, we received vandalism in the article on her sexual preference, definitely is false, and sexist comments (to call a woman a "lesbian" for not appearing feminine) is offensive and aren't tolerated on any Wikipedia bio article. --- G. Sageha
[edit] Frente Manuel Rodriguez
I've added something about this to the article. Unsigned opinion on this controversial matter will be deleted. Rd232 talk 18:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Again somebody has erased the text about the "frente manuel rodriguez", what a shame, if that's their candidate I can understand why they dont want anyone to know anything about her past.
I have restored the article to the original once again. Agrofelipe 18/12/2005
- Equally, you seem to be very keen to say bad things about her. I asked Cantus why he removed my sourced information, and with no answer forthcoming I've put it back. Do not add back that she was a member of the Frente; we don't know this. Equally, do not use unnecessarily inflammatory words like "terrorist" - it is enough to say what a person or organisation did and let readers make up their own minds. Rd232 talk 11:14, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
-
- It's a fact that Michelle Bachelet was involved with the FPMR, a well known terrorist organization. Whoever is trying to hide the fact that the FPMR wasnt a terrorist organization, then i must say you guys really don't know anything about her or Chile. --blackman 20:03, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, I think facts speak for themselves. Agrofelipe 18/12/2005
- she wasnt a member of el frente, and the FPMR is not truly consider a "terrorist" organization except for the rightist. In the time the FPMR was active a lot of people were disapearing, being tortured and the dictatorship had no trouble in going to the slumbs to shoot anything that moved (i think that happened around 120-200 times, in different slumbs that is, in this recent report that showed up). The FPMR is responsible for several assasinations, bank robberies and sabotage. But always aiming at people who were actively involved in the dictatorship, they never attacked civilians, for example.
-
- "The FPMR is responsible for several assasinations, bank robberies and sabotage. But always aiming at people who were actively involved in the dictatorship, they never attacked civilians, for example." Now that is full of it. The FPMR, Lautaro, and other terrorist groups in Chile and abroad act basically under the same despicable premise: in order to achieve their goals it is justifiable to kill and scare the shit out of people. Whether these people are in the military, high ranked politicians, or random civilian bystanders doesn't make a big difference to them. Now you're saying that the FPMR performed some kind of surgical paramilitary operations targeting only the people in power during Pinochet's regime. Actually, that happened a couple of times, but in general they were as brutal and ruthless as any other terrorist group, killing lots of civilians and people that had nothing to do with the regime. The only time they tried to kill Pinochet they failed miserably. Shamefully enough, a number of his low ranked police escorts didn't survive the attack. Another assassination attempt, right after the return of democracy, was against senator Jaime Guzman. He was defenseless, took by surprise and shot cowardly by one of the members of this gang. When you try to justify what they did I start to find what the other side did justifiable too, so be careful with the way you argue in favor of terrorist groups and activities.
You are right, its ok to murder people as long as they are rightist................ after all senator Guzman diserved to die isnt he???......... your opinion is just pathetic. Agrofelipe 14/01/2006
- he said "...But always aiming at people who were actively involved in the dictatorship, they never attacked civilians, for example." to which you replied "You are right, its ok to murder people as long as they are rightists..." - So, which one is pathetic? LamontCranston 02:25, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I think terrorist are from both side, its nor right to murder people. (May be im wrong but i believe that agrofelipe was making and irony about Jaime guzman death.)
"...But always aiming at people who were actively involved in the dictatorship, they never attacked civilians, for example." Right so the people working at the banks they rob and get killed or the police officers that tried to apprehend them and died were just "collateral damage"?..... and please show some respect for senator Guzman he was a decent man, who worked in the making of the new constitution, he was elected senator and then killed by a coward terrorist without a face. Agrofelipe 19/01/06
- I doubt a president like Bachelet involved herself with terrorism in the past, and many terrorist posts were removed in the talk room. It's like her opponents, alike with any politican, invent tales to attack Bachelet on her religion, political views, sexuality (don't appear typically feminine) and so on. Some countries don't allow personal attacks and negative criticism on their presidents, leaders, rulers or kings. I guess Chile has freedom of the press and I wonder their television news is censored (if not, is the news of good quality?)+ 207.200.116.197 09:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
-
- I don't know, except what I read and studied what's said from the article. No country, except the U.S. tolerates non-violent verbal or written attacks on their elected leaders. And don't bring up Bachelet's sexual preferences without actual biographical grain of truth. I'm glad nobody made an issue of her single motherhood and Chilean society recently lifted the stigma on women having children without a husband. Finnish president Tarja Halonen is truly a single mother, but Finland is more tolerant on that matter. -- G. Sageha
-
- Jaime Guzman a decent man?, he took active part in one of the blodiest dictatorships in history, profiting from it from the deaths and tortured of thousands of chileans (and with a constitution that was downright forced by guns rather than voting, and about the voting on the 80s?, that was a joke, not even voting registries). Theres absolutely nothing decent there (and i wouldnt be too proud of the 80s constitution either, i specially loved that part of the constitution that stated that designated right-wing senators could be appointed rather than elected, i like the binominal system too, wich allows senators to walk right through congress with just a 25%). About the Frente, their direction changed from 89' onwards, when they split from the communist party (thus as democracy had returned, the frente's action began to look more and more pathetic, as they didnt had a particular motive). About bank cashiers killed in bank robberies and police officers. Well, cant blame em for killing police officers back then, as they used to make extensive raids into slums to downright shoot people (i believe that over 200 raids were made by the police, if my memory is not correct), as i remember correctly, a police car back then resembled more of a tank than a police patrol, with several protections to windshields for example (one just has to wonder why...), gosh, it would be so convenient to portray police officers as noble men back then, when even now they are widely known for their brutality (ever been arrested?, they kick you in the legs for a while if you gave them problems, you know, doesnt leave noticeable bruises). About bank cashiers, that might seem to be a chauvinism, got any sources for that son?. And, the Frente was an extremist group, not a terrorist group. Theres a slight difference there, bombing public places might just not been good for The Frente's image back then, as they recieved finance from several sources (Inti-Illimani gaved around 5 million dollars from their sales, back when they were huge in europe, i doubt that money would had still roll in if The Frente would had been an Al-Qaeda-like organiztion). And if its about terror that we are talking about, who better in excelling at it than the ongoing dictatorship. Proof of that might be the little fact that less than 50 militars died killed by Frente guns, compared to the overwhelming 3200 people killed by the militar, who is more terrorist here?. You are nothing but a rightist chauvinist with seriously no information to back up your reply other than propaganda of time, when The Frente was portrayed as mindless terrorist faction. -- signed by an ANON IP
- I think your post isn't just messy grammar and lack of punctuation. Don't accuse Sra. Bachelet a terrorist please. Other posts compared her political stances to Hugo Chavez of Venezuela and Evo Morales of Bolivia. Sra. Bachelet is socialist, no doubt, and don't deserve to fall in a place with Kim Jong Il of North Korea and Mahmoud Ahmedinejad of Iran. I never heard of Chile to pursue nuclear weapons like the other two. It's common knowledge for Chavez jeered Bush and other Latin American presidents, and Mr. Morales spoke of disdain for U.S. diplomacy policies. Bachelet never had a war-like militant approach to the U.S. Chavez, not Bachelet verbally attacked rightist presidents Alvaro Uribe of Colombia and Vicente Fox of Mexico. Consult their biographical articles on those matters. Let's stick to the subject on Bachelet in her dedicated talk page. I won't label her a terrorist. -- G. Sageha
[edit] Pronunciation of name
It might be necessary to clarify the pronunciation of the name Bachelet. I'm sure that if she does get elected president and thus begins to be reported more in English-speaking media, they're going to start mispronouncing her name as Batche-LAY as if it were a French name, just like Pinochet gets mispronounced as Pino-SHAY. --GringoInChile 12:19, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
It is a French name, so it should be pronounced as such. You don't see people calling Hernán Büchi "Boo-chee", but "Bee-hee", or people calling Milovan Milosevic "Milose-vik", but "Milose-vich". Not even in Chile. 200.83.186.125 00:33, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
- Origins are irrelevant - people can choose how their names are pronounced, and this frequently changes when families move to other linguistic environments. How does she pronounce her name? Rd232 talk 19:33, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Considering how Chileans aspirate the "T" when it ends a word, she probably pronounces it the French way anyway.
- She most certainly doesn't pronounce it the French way. Over the last few months, I've been hearing her name mentioned hundreds of time by the local Chilean media and in ALL cases the T has been clearly pronounced. --GringoInChile 01:46, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Im chilean and its pronounced bah-CHE'H-leht and she pronounces it as so. I have TV Chile thru Direct TV and everyone else pronounces it as so too In spanish french terms are hardly ever pronounced french like they are pronpounced more or less phenetically for example Ballet a french word it pronounced b'ahl-lay in french and english however in spanish it is pronounced bah-LEHT Atacama 05:55, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
The Chilean way: mitch-EHL batch-ehl-EHT. —Cantus…☎ 04:54, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
- I reverted additions of how to pronounce until we can perhaps add IPA and a sound clip. Mike H. That's hot 23:39, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
When Chile was a stable prosperous country to an extent, millions of Europeans other than Spanish settled in Chile. Bachelet's family are obviously upper-class, like many Spanish/European families in Chile as well in Argentina and Uruguay. (read the Michelle Bachelet article for the stated information, and the demographics of these South American countries).
The pronounciation should not be difficult, like if any Bachelet came to North America and end up said "Backeleter". My own father from France had Bachelet in his maternal side, originated in Boulogne-de-Mer, near Calais in Artois, France. Closer to England, Britian than Chile, but remember how many Europeans left for the new world and their overseas colonies. Bachelet is her paternal name, although she was married and divorced, and her maternal name Jeria sounds like 'Jerry'. Now is it an Italian/German/Portugese name is disputed? All I know is the world is a small place.
I knew a chat buddy whose aunt by marriage is Chilean and said her father is Scottish from the southern area. It's been said the Scots, Croat, Danish and Greek sailors transformed Punta Arenas to a 'new' Latino subculture. If the president of Chile and my Dad's grandaunt share a last name, then who knows. but by chance. What else is interesting my own half-sister's name is Michele. Huh...its a family name I guess. + 207.200.116.197 02:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- I would love to review YOUR genealogy and match Bachelet's for a possible link, or you won't meet her in your family reunion! And about your chat buddy's aunt? Unless she's a Bachelet, it don't matter to me or any of us in the Bachelet talk page. Michelle's father Alberto Bachelet, is detailed on Wikipedia, unfortunately has died in prison where Michelle briefly stayed. Chileans like Americans, Europeans and all humans, come in different races, colors, shapes and sizes. Homogeneous cultures are composed of a history of mergers and contacts of varied tribes and nations. So to put it clearly the new president (Sra. Bachelet) shares the same ethnic mix of her nation she reperesents. Whoever you are (the ANON IP), you're not academic material. Your posts (some I had to update) shown you skipped reading the rules. -- G. Sageha
[edit] Guyana Latin American?
Surely Guyana's not Latin American... Wouldn't it be better calling her the fourth female president of the Americas instead? Andelarion 23:43, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
How do work that out...are you thinking of Guinea? It's probably safe to place Guyana in this spectrum. And I think a distiction should be made between latin (south and central) america and the Americas which is more or less North and south and the carribbean..to include the carribbean would mean she would not be fourth female president of anything anymore... 172.215.91.203 00:53, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
-
- But in these "first woman" categories, the article does not yet mention that Bachelet is the "first woman" elected who is not the widow of an influential political figure. This is important. --Wetman 21:51, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
- Done. —Cantus…☎ 07:14, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
- Hmm, but what about Lidia Gueiler Tejada in Bolivia? Who was she widow of? Lets not be too hasty with the firsts... --66.30.27.69 00:14, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
- She was never elected in a direct election. —Cantus…☎ 02:18, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
- But in these "first woman" categories, the article does not yet mention that Bachelet is the "first woman" elected who is not the widow of an influential political figure. This is important. --Wetman 21:51, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
You could suggest to say "the Western Hemisphere" or the "Americas" North and South. Then it won't be a problem. Many people tend to forget Brazil is Latin American, but not Spanish when it comes to this country's cultural origin is Portuguese. Like Chile, Brazil has a high development index and the issues on preserving democracy, fighting poverty and environmental protection. In most Latin American countries, Americans (from the U.S.) are diplomatically called "NorteAmericanos" as they are "Centro-, Suda- or Latino-Americanos".+ 207.200.116.197 08:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] South American socialists
So how many South American countries now have socialist or left wing presidents? Worth mentioning in the article since I think the left is at a record high now. 64.231.225.206 17:22, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
- In office: Argentina, Brazil (moderate), Uruguay, Venezuela. Elected: Bolivia, Chile (moderate). —Cantus…☎ 07:12, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
- I wouldn't consider Brazil moderate. The left-wing countries are Argentina (left-wing), Brazil (left-wing), Uruguay (left-wing), Venezuela (very left-wing), Bolivia (after Morales' inauguration, very left-wing), Chile (center-left, both Lagos & Bachelet), Guayana (center-left), and Suriname (center-left).
-
-
- I wouldn't consider Lagos government over the last 6 years as center-left, but even only center. His government was rather politically comparable with for example Gerhard Schröder's SPD in Germany which are called socialdemocrats, or even more towards right. They sometimes do apply more "rightist" recipes then the own christian democrats. Same with Lagos, who accelerated the globalism character of Chile even more, with all the free trade agreements with the USA, EU, China and many othersRapaNui 01:01, 18 January 2006 (CET)
-
-
-
-
- Lagos' social programs were leftist, but yes, he was quite centrist. I believe Bachelet will move a bit more to the left, however.
-
-
-
-
-
- The socialist/leftist trend shifted north to Central America, the Dominican Republic and Mexico during this year's presidential elections in their countries. Popular discontent with free market capitalism and opposition to American foreign policy/diplomacy has made voters move to the left. Peru has a strong leftist base, but elected a rightist general, Colombia in continuous civil wars between left and right, and Mexico has a pro-U.S. president Felipe Calderon to secede Vicente Fox, pres. George Bush's closest friend out of all foreign leaders.
-
-
The Chileans are renowned for their European socialism, but struggle with Latin American problems of massive poverty, corruption and dictators like gen. Pinochet. However, Chile held records of the longest government without dictators out of 20 Latin American republics, before the title went to Costa Rica (60 years), Uruguay( 75 years) and Mexico (85 years). Democratic innovative countries Brazil and Venezuela kept returning to dictatorship or extreme political leaders.
The reason to explain the nature of Chilean politics may be economic, cultural and progressive development to handle it's problems in a less radical matter, but only one in 1970-73 did the system was driven downward and the U.S. CIA admittedly interfered in Chile to dispose Salvador Allende, an elected Marxist president.
What was meant to restore democracy and free enterprise, Pinochet became president by force and his crackdown on political dissidents in 1973-76 brought on one of the bloodiest campaigns in the late 20th century. The death toll was over 10,000, but exact statistics remain unknown as some prisoners disappeared without a trace.
Today, Chileans are divided over Allende and Pinochet, and who's fault is it: the U.S. capitalists or Soviet communists for bringing Chile to near ruin. Bachelet isn't pro-soviet like in the past, then if she choose sides with America, the majority of leftist leaders oppose her and Hugo Chavez may personally insult Bachelet. Fidel Castro was known to called Mikhail Gorbachev, Hu Jintao of China and all reformed communists "traitors" and "yankee sympathizers". + 207.200.116.197 02:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Explain to us better. I had to correct one more post. There's no single political ideology: communist, socialist, capitalist or fascist movements. Ideologies split into factions like religions and cultural niches, when one group divides and breaks into others. China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea and Vietnam don't share the same Leninist-Marxist ideology. Bachelet studied socialism, communism and liberalism, all the 3 types of the "left" side of the political spectrum, for her ambitions or solutions. I reckon there's no comparison to conservatism, militarism and fascism belong to the "right" side. American conservatives, alike American liberals, are democracy-based and believe in less government interference. Nothing in the quite in fascism and militarism, may share a traditional hierarchy of law and order, but reject moderation you find in the democratic right. --- G. Sageha
[edit] Probable Vandalism
I checked this page at 00:18 GMT on 17/1/06 and saw that the page had been gutted at 00:17 and replaced with something related to terrorism. I reverted the page at 00:21 to the peniultimate version, but don't know how to/if I should report this as vandalism.
SicilianMorpheus 00:37, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
- There was only piece of vandalism from that IP, and you've already warned him. Unless he does it again, no further action is needed. Rd232 talk 01:44, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] tidying
Unfortunately it seems I need to pedantically explain minor improvements to the introduction which accord with basic WP principles and style guidelines, in response to an arbitrary and unexplained reversion (without naming anyone, Cantus). Overlooking that such behavior did not assume good faith and wasn't particularly nice, it's like this.
Firstly, with regard to the various "easter egg links" please consider Wikipedia:Piped_link. We must not have the appearance of runoff election when in fact we mean the Chilean presidential election, 2005. There is also the appearance of socialism, although we mean the Socialist Party of Chile (this one remains unchanged in the too hard basket for now).
With regard to linking to social security, legal separation, agnosticism and others, consider Wikipedia:Build the web, the application of which with these changes has had full regard to Wikipedia:Make only links relevant to the context (the balance is struck by not linking to political campaign, for example). To put it more plainly, these are matters directly relevant to the policies and life of Bachelet. Readers must be able to follow such links if they choose.
And others: We cannot have "...(winning an election) against successful entrepreneur...". Although I think that Piñera's commercial success or otherwise is irrelevant and should not appear in the 2nd sentence, the revision retains this reference; also, Piñera (or anyone) cannot "fail to accomplish a commitment" - failing to accomplish a promise is an improvement at least. But I've not reinstated the revision of the anthropomorphic construction "world's largest gap between rich and poor" (to labour the point, the "world" does not have any gaps of any kind).
BLUE 04:36, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
- I guess the best way to report it is you live in Chile. GringoinChile, how's the country? I'm interested in a vacation there and learning more on the country. It's true Chile shares common characteristics with Latin America (i.e. conservative Catholic developing nation), but not when Bachelet was elected to represent Chile. It would be cool if another South American woman Shakira, a music star became president of Colombia. Oh well, it's possible for a liberal well-traveled woman able to speak different languages. +207.200.116.197 09:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Don't try to be funny and don't bother Shakira on this Bachelet talk page. The world in the 21st century is more accepting to women in the quest for equality. Latin America does not legally bar women from running for and holding public office. I can name 5 countries that block women's access to political leadership, because of their traditional or moral values that are viewed discriminatory to us in the west. Because of my political opinions, I won't vote for Bachelet as much I won't pick John Kerry and Al Gore. I never vote for Hillary Clinton not on the basis of sex, but her politics and affiliation with husband Bill Clinton. -- G. Sageha
[edit] Agnostic v. Atheist
"Atheist" was changed to "agnostic" based on one cited article to El Wapo. But the New York Times, [4] the Miami Herald, [5] and Christopher Hitchens (who pays attention to and makes fine distinctions among such matters) have her describing herself as an "atheist". The weight of evidence says: "atheist" is more likely accurate. - Reaverdrop 04:52, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I read an interview where she described herself as agnostic, although it is no longer on her website. I did find an article from El Mercurio here that clearly defines her as agnostic. Sean 05:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Apparently her descriptions of herself as both an agnostic and an atheist are both well attested by several sources. I don't see any reason to eliminate one label or the other (or supporting sources), when she has apparently freely claimed both labels. - Reaverdrop 09:11, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. I think she used to claim atheism, but has now "changed" to agnosticism, maybe because it made her more electable. Anyway, here's a Washington Post article from last month (I'm going to take out 2 of the Spanish-language papers and add this) where she is quoted "I'm agnostic". Sean 16:04, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I figured it was more likely an atheist would claim to be "agnostic" to be more politically palatable than for an agnostic to describe herself as an atheist. - Reaverdrop 16:58, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
She herself has said in an interview with Raquel Correa in El Mercurio — Chile's most prestigious political interviewer in Chile's most prestigious daily — that she considers herself to be agnóstica — an agnostic. The interview is dated November 30, 2004. It can be read here. I haven't found a single interview where she declares herself to be an atheist. I believe this settles the point for good. —Cantus…☎ 04:38, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Politics. The first three sources I read - Christopher Hitchens, the New York Times, and the Miami Herald, all referred to her as an atheist. Hitchens discussed it at length and with enthusiasm. He is not the type to hear one thing and be capable of mistaking it for the other - as if the Times were either. If she became inconsistent, it was for campaign season. Nice job waiting until five reverts before ever bothering even to try to explain yourself. But you're still wrong. The best we can say is that she reported both atheist and agnostic to different sources, which should be reflected in the article, not an arbitrary judgment call by you. If you want to demand that the two aren't mutually compatible, go strike it up with Michelle, don't arrogate ownership of this article to yourself. (Cross posted to User talk:Reaverdrop.) - Reaverdrop 08:36, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
- I can't see how Spanish-language, Chilean news sources don't trump English-language American sources. I can assure you that she is universally reported as an agnostic here. In fact, the only Chilean source I saw calling her an athiest was her opponent during the campaign. (Here is an article accusing him of an intellectual vulgarity for this: [6]) A Google News search in Spanish finds 500 articles for 'bachelet agnostica' and only 56 for 'bachelet atea', several of which quote her critics accusing her of atheism. I'm reverting, accordingly, and this should end it unless someone turns up a quote of Bachelet describing herself as an athiest. Eliot 15:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
- Here is solid evidence that American news organizations have been mistranslating Bachelet, in fact. She was quoted as saying "Yo reunía todos los pecados capitales juntos: socialista, hija de mi padre, separada, no religiosa." -- the key word being "non-religious", which does not preclude being agnostic. However, this was translated as: "Even though she admits she incarnates "all the capital sins - socialist, my father's daughter, divorced and an atheist." [7] You can imagine how just one or a few mistranslations could filter through the whole of American media. Eliot 15:14, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
-
- Here are more sources indicating that Bachelet is an atheist and/or that she describes herself as an atheist. Is every single one of these news outlets, including Spanish-language sources and reporters, incapable of translating Spanish faithfully and incapable of any functioning fact-checking? And after all these news reports describing her as an atheist around the world, she never bothered to make a correction? This presents an overwhelming body of evidence that Bachelet has at at least some of the time described herself as an atheist. Why would she have at other times describe herself as agnostic? Maybe for the same reason a few people here seem to have an emotional bias away from providing information about her atheism, and the same reason that her opponent tried to emphasize it as a criticism of her during campaigning: it's easier to accept for an overwhelmingly Catholic country.
-
- It goes against the policy of Wikipedia to think that information so solidly attested to as from so many sources as presented here should be censored out of a Wikipedia article because a couple of Wikipedians take it upon themselves to know better than over a dozen, at least, major news reporting bodies. Information attested from a great number of news outlets is not proven wrong by comparing total hits in competitive Google searches. With so many sources attesting to it, readers of this article deserve to read about this information, and investigate further for themselves if they find reasonable basis to think it inaccurate, rather than be barred from gaining the information in the first place because it is censored. There is absolutely no justification after this much attestation to try to censor the information on Bachelet's atheism out of the article again.
-
-
- New York Times, Google cache of quote (Rafael Gumucio): "Given this context, it is nothing short of extraordinary - even revolutionary - that the clear front-runner in the presidential vote being held on Sunday is Michelle Bachelet, a divorced mother of three who is an atheist and a member of the Socialist Party."
- The New York Times, January 16, 2006 "-Michelle Bachelet, who was elected Sunday as president of this male-dominated, prosperous and deeply religious nation of 16 million, is a woman and an agnostic..."
- New York Times, Google cache of quote (Rafael Gumucio): "Given this context, it is nothing short of extraordinary - even revolutionary - that the clear front-runner in the presidential vote being held on Sunday is Michelle Bachelet, a divorced mother of three who is an atheist and a member of the Socialist Party."
-
-
-
- Philadelphia Inquirer: "Bachelet has said she is an atheist."
-
-
-
- AFP (Agence France-Presse): "The leader in Chile's presidential race is a socialist, atheist, single mom, torture victim -- hardly the profile for success in a conservative, Catholic South American country."
- AFP, January 16, 2006 An agnostic single mother of three, she was not an obvious choice for leadership in this socially conservative Roman Catholic country.
- AFP (Agence France-Presse): "The leader in Chile's presidential race is a socialist, atheist, single mom, torture victim -- hardly the profile for success in a conservative, Catholic South American country."
-
-
-
- EITP, Spain: "Bachelet's political success has baffled many Chileans who thought a socialist atheist divorcee jailed during the dictatorship of Gen. Augusto Pinochet stood little chance in the conservative country."
-
-
-
- Accuracy in Media (Written by one of the directors of Accuracy in Media who is married to a Chilean): "So how did this rather bland atheist, "separated" mother of three with different men, with no successful leadership accomplishments, become Latin America's first 'self made' woman president?"
-
-
-
- The Courier-Mail, Australia (Jose Luis Varela): "Ms Bachelet, who claims to be an atheist, has been long separated from her husband and has raised her three children largely on her own.
- The Courier-Mail, Australia: "The agnostic woman with three children from two relationships has also benefited from a shift to more secular values in the predominantly Roman Catholic country."
- The Courier-Mail, Australia (Jose Luis Varela): "Ms Bachelet, who claims to be an atheist, has been long separated from her husband and has raised her three children largely on her own.
-
-
-
- Miami Herald (Knight Ridder): "Bachelet has said she is an atheist."
-
-
-
- The Independent, UK: "A pediatrician turned politician, Michelle Bachelet is an atheist single mother with three children by two different partners..."
-
-
-
- The Globe and Mail, UK Google cache of article (Marina Jiménez): "An avowed atheist and single mother of three children by two different fathers, she presents a clear sign of change in a conservative, deeply Roman Catholic country."
- For an avowed atheist, it sure is hard to find an instance of her avowing her atheism.... oh wait!
- The Globe and Mail, UK: "Ms. Bachelet, an agnostic and single mother of three children from two different men, was imprisoned under the Pinochet dictatorship, and her victory is seen as a symbol of healing and change in a conservative country that has become increasingly secular."
- The Globe and Mail, UK Google cache of article (Marina Jiménez): "An avowed atheist and single mother of three children by two different fathers, she presents a clear sign of change in a conservative, deeply Roman Catholic country."
-
-
-
- The Daily Telegraph, Australia: "Ms Bachelet says she is an atheist."
- The Daily Telegraph, Australia: "The agnostic woman with three children..."
- The Daily Telegraph, Australia: "Ms Bachelet says she is an atheist."
-
-
-
- Pravda (Hernan Etchaleco): "Mrs. Bachelet, an atheist political prisoner during the dictatorship of Gen. Augusto Pinochet and later defense minister for incumbent Ricardo Lagos's center-left government, defeated conservative tycoon Sebastian Pinera in the runoff of another exciting Chilean presidential race."
-
-
-
- Mineweb, South Africa: "In a strongly Catholic nation, Bachelet has said she is an atheist."
-
-
-
- - Reaverdrop 19:05, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
-
-
-
-
- I hope this at least proves to you that these news services use the terms imprecisely if not interchangeably. Eliot 14:26, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
-
-
You realize that those stories could very well all have written from the same wire copy, right? And the more people make the mistake, the more that mistake can be disseminated. I think you are POV pushing here -- you stated above that you believe she's an atheist who started calling herself agnostic to gain votes, which is absolutely unsupported by any sources. I've produced evidence that English-language sources have mistranslated or misreported agnosticism as atheism; you've presented no verifiable evidence that Bachelet has ever described herself as an atheist. I think you should drop it. Eliot 14:08, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
"Yo soy agnóstica" Bachelet's campaign website
- If the news media continued to slam Bachelet as an atheist (not a believer of any god), this will become a problem on libel or slander. She's an agnostic who believes in god, christ and religion with her questioning and her personal conviction "we can't be so sure". There's a wide difference between agnostic (such as myself) and atheist (who feels god is nonexistent). To call someone an "atheist" without proof is name-calling and an action of religious intolerance. Wikipedia and society in general (the U.S. and most countries) don't support attacks on religious groups, but the news sources shown the question was varied on their biographical intrepretations. + 207.200.116.197 09:43, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Poor Introduction
Bachelet is a moderate, she is not "socialist," she is from the Socialist Party, which is a centre-left coalition. Describing Sebastián Piñera as a "successfull entrepreneur," is just as appropriate than calling him a bourgeois leech. The man is a filthy rich businessman. Lastly... "a promise that current President, Ricardo Lagos, failed to accomplish" what does that supposed to mean? ...not even proper english, not to mention it is a dispicable condecending jab. I believe wikipedia has higher standards for this, especially for an article that is on the front page.
"what does that supposed to mean?".... exactly, what IS that supposed to mean? Proper English? Gimme a break.
Discussion comments? In proper English? ...Prick?
Poor comment. This comment is so full of crap that it ridicules itself. Some highlights: 1) "she is not a "socialist", she is from the Socialist Party, which is a centre-left coalition"... jeez, if you belong to the socialist party you're a socialist by definition. And the socialist party is NOT a centre-left "coalition". It's a left-wing party, period. 2) "what does that supposed to mean? ...not even proper english", already addressed. 3) "... is just as appropriate than...", "dispicable", "condecending", right, talk about proper English... I mean, colloquial English here and there is fine, but if you're going to bitch about other people's grammar at least try to practice what you preach, or better keep it shut.
You are so smart, I wish I culd be as smart as you. You use so many big words! Please teach me the art of bitch, I do value your opinion! Period(.)
- Social Democratic Party (Portugal) Men have nipples, can you milk them?
-
- Your nitpicking for parties with a misleading name doesn't add much to the discussion. The Socialist party in Chile is just that: a socialist party. Supporters of and supported by the Soviet Union at the time, supporters of the Cuban regime until today. You can't get more socialist than that, can you?. They are not communists only because they've embraced a liberal economy for political survival and social convenience. But that's that, still leaning toward the left on most issues. This shouldn't be offensive or anything. Just facts. But it seems you all want to be "centered" these days... talk about political travesty. "Men have nipples, can you milk them?", hahahahaaa last time I checked, men had nipples not tits. Sorry if you do, unless you're a woman, of course.
-
-
- Whoever in Portugal made a dumb analogy on gender equality, but tries to state how men and women are supposedly equal. True, women have babies and have different behavioral patterns related to gender. But women aren't weak or less smarter, and that can lead to sexism and prejudice against women.
-
Anyway, there's a debate on whether Latin American countries are under "third world" socialist programs or under an old world elitism dates back to colonial times. Mexico, for example, had a revolution to dispose elite authoritarianism and historic records spoke of peasants rose against the abuses of landowners, and after the revolution, a new republic was created and the 1917 constitution modeled on the U.S. called for democracy and land privatization. Today, the Mexican economy and previous governments are full of corruption and a one-party system (before 2000), mismanagement by state/ national officials, and widespread poverty in rural towns or villages.
I don't know who's fault is it made Latin America a society of haves and have-nots, but far-left partisans like former Mexico City mayor Andrés Manuel López Obrador is a presidential candidate and he's just as leftist like Castro, Chavez and to a lesser extent, Bachelet. The U.S. never supports a candidate with hostile and opposing views of our country, but nothing to worry from Chile.+ 207.200.116.197 08:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Please check your grammar and keep on topic. Some of the anon posts need relocation to Talk: Chile if a post discusses the current status of Chilean politics/ economics. The talk page is about improvements, corrections and errors on the article solely on Michelle Bachelet. Thank you. --- G. Sageha
[edit] world's largest gaps between rich and poor?
Chile has (one of) the smallest gap between rich and poor (in the region). According to CEPAL, Chile had the lowest poverty percentage of the region: Chile 19% regional average 44%. The miserable people percentage is of 4,7%, while in Brazil for example is of 13,3% (2001). I quote here the part of the editorial of Folha de Sao Paulo (from yesterday), from where I got his information. "Pelos mais variados critérios, as escolhas do Chile sob a Concertação foram coroadas de resultados positivos. Na última década (1996 a 2005), o crescimento médio anual do país foi de 4,2%. No mesmo período, o Brasil cresceu a míseros 2,2% ao ano, e o conjunto das nações da América Latina, a 2,8%. De acordo com os critérios da Cepal (Comissão Econômica para a América Latina e o Caribe), em 2003 o Chile era o país, em uma lista de 18 da região, a ostentar o menor índice de pobreza. Dezenove porcento de sua população de 16 milhões de habitantes eram considerados pobres. O contraste com a média regional (44%, para 2002) e com o Brasil (37,1%, para 2001) é grande. Além disso, o Chile viu sua população de pobres cair à metade de 1990 a 2003, período em que o percentual de indigentes no país veio de 12,9% para 4,7% -o Brasil tinha 13,3% de indigentes em 2001."
Diotti 10:51, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I didnt know that the difference had increased, it seemed obvious to me, that if the poor percentage had decreased the difference between rich and poor would too.Diotti 14:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
It seems that you don't understand what "gap" means. Your post only refers to general statistics on poverty. Poverty in Chile has indeed decreased during the last 16 years, and yet the GAP between the wealthiest 10% and the poorest 10% of the population has increased to become one of the largest worldwide. And that's a fact.
- I'll add one those "easter eggs" links to the appropriate ranking. —Cantus…☎ 02:27, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
The Chilean economy in the 1990s was one of the world's fastest growing, and a few under-developed nations poised to move forward (i.e. China, India, Iran, Turkey, South Africa, Malaysia, Mexico, Brazil, and with Russia and Eastern Europe). Copper remains a major byproduct of Chile, but economic planning in the Pinochet regime wanted to expand byproducts and natural resources: Fish, wines, winter fruits, offshore oil/petroleum and industrial manufacturing. NAFTA attempted to include Chile in the 1990's, but a free trade agreement in 2001 increased economic growth with the U.S. and Canada.
The Chileans heavily trade with Europe, Japan, China, South Korea, Australia and oil-rich Kuwait, since it's believed Pinochet has stocks in petroleum. In the gulf war, Chilean arms dealer billionaire Carlos Cardeon was accused of profiteering from Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein by his arms supply. The economy must did well, then when you hear of ITT, Ford, Kennecott, Wal-Mart, the Home Depot and Microsoft brokered deals in Chile, this is like we got a new "Asian Tiger" but in South America.
I hope Bachelet will bring forth new prosperity like predecessors Alywin and Lagos did in the 1990s, except for a mild recession in 2000-01. General Pinochet's globally publicized trial for his role in having Spanish agents killed, and human rights accusations brought Chile on the map. He cannot be prosecuted due to his age and disability to stand trial. Bachelet brought Chile again as an innovator, not only a woman elected as president, and she's the 45th female leader in the world (historically), after India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Great Britain, Germany, Liberia, Indonesia and Finland. + 207.200.116.197 02:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- It is me again, to resurrect the talk page posts. Bachelet has company to speak of a growing force of women in politics and how come you haven't read South Korea's recent appointment of a female prime minister? I'm unable to spell her name or a revert link to an article won't work. Interesting on economic growth in Chile, but you're in the wrong place to discuss that and once more, take that to the Talk: Chile page please. --- G. Sageha
[edit] Cantus - other's views?
It seems that some of us who have recently contributed to this article have had their edits removed by Cantus, typically without explanation in the edit summary. If C bothers to respond here on the talk page to anything, you can see that C slams the door on proposals without meaningful discussion (the gap issue) and/or just comes out with a personal attack (see Poor Introduction). It also appears that this is fairly standard behavior for C.
Any admins or other editors out there who agree enough to point out directly to C that none of this is acceptable for Wikipedia? BLUE 04:25, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
- I always sign my posts, so you must be confusing me with somebody else. —Cantus…☎ 05:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
- Sure. How typically disingenuous of you to feign understanding of what's being said here. BLUE 02:25, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
-
- Take this change, for example (where you reverted my changes in the last paragraph): [8]. I'm not feeling very strongly about this particular wording, and I'm not claiming my version was perfect. But your edit fits BLUE's description: You removed my edit without providing an explanation. However, I just realized that you did reply thoroughly at the Reference Desk - thank you for that. Common Man 07:38, 19 January 2006 (UTC), revised 08:07, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Percentage of the Vote
Someone changed the percentage of the vote from 53% to 63% (decimals excluded). Is this true? My sources reported 53% of the vote. Mr. Anonymous (af) 14:05, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
She won by 53%, personally I think its a damn shame to this country Agrofelipe 19/01/06
[edit] "Second woman"
She is the second woman (after Violeta Chamorro) to become president of a Latin American nation without being the widow of a former president.
- The sentence is phrased so that it can be read as demeaning to Latin Americans: "look here: these latinos oppress their women". To be fair, it is good to mention how many women were presidents in North America. (I suspect none). Mukadderat 16:55, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
- Also, what the heck this "widow" thing? I find it misogynistic and an attempt to decrease the actual number of women presidents. Someone knowledgeable, please improve. Mukadderat 16:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that the "widow thing" seems out of place. I especially think it completely misses the point, since it doesn't matter who the female presidents were related to, but how they came to power. I believe it should say something along the lines of her being the third female to come to the presidency in Latin America by direct election to the office, after Violeta Chamorro and Mireya Moscoso, while others such as Rosalía Arteaga, Lidia Gueiler Tejada and Isabel Martínez de Perón were in the line of succession. Beatriz Merino was Prime Minister of Peru, which is not so powerful an office, so I don't know if it should count. If someone can check me on the facts and write it up, please do; else I'll do it when I have the time. Something else to consider: perhaps this should be the subject of a new article (related to List of women heads of state)? DanielCohen 17:57, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
- "it doesn't matter who the female presidents were related to, but how they came to power" - exactly: the logic is that being the widow of a President is a particularly strong springboard for women to reach the highest offices in Latin America. This is why the achievement of reaching that office without that advantage is notable. I wasn't very happy with the sentence though, so please do continuing discussing what to say about this issue. Rd232 talk 19:28, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Pardon me for adding this to your post, don't forget Jamaican prime minister Portia Simpson, elected in late 2005 and most of her people approve of Simpson's rule in public ranting polls. She spoke of her election and first term as the first female prime minister (directly elected other than appointed or pro-tem) in the Caribbean: "It's woman time" quoted by PM Simpson herself and Jamaica is renowned for progress in women's rights in the high representation of Jamaican women in politics, business and social status than their counterparts in most countries of the western hemisphere, including the US. 63.3.14.2 11:11, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
-
-
- See Cantus' thorough and helpful reply to this question: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#Latin_American_woman_president
Common Man 08:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- See Cantus' thorough and helpful reply to this question: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#Latin_American_woman_president
-
-
-
-
- I don't know what kept the U.S. my country so long to accept electing a woman as president. Hillary Rodham Clinton is a likely hopeful, but it's two years away for the next election. Now the list...that makes 10 women held posts as presidents or prime minister in Latin America. Bachelet was not the first at all, but neighboring Argentina had Maria Isabel Peron in the 1970's after her late husband Juan Peron.
-
-
An upcoming presidential election in Mexico had one woman, but can't remember her name except it ended in Arriola. There are elections in Central America and Dominican Rep. had female candidates, then it's a sign of what may come. Cuba, a communist government emphasized gender equality as part of the Castro revolution. His brother, General Raul Castro seceded the seriously ill Fidel. However, no women are found in the top levels of the Castro regime.
Would this make FARC, Shining Path, and Mexico's Zapatistas into the "equal sex" idea as a Marxist-inspired paramilitiary group? Guyana did had a woman president, Janet Jegen, and our neighbor to the North (Canada) had a woman prime minister, Kim Campbell. Latin American culture hasn't totally accept the idea of women as social equals alike the developed world (U.S. and Canada), then why the U.S. as a role model in democracy and human rights never had a woman president...and the idea scares some American voters? Bachelet don't appear scary to me, nor for the majority of Chileans. + 207.200.116.197 02:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Try to search for Sra. Arriola in Mexico on AOL or google, and wikipedia might come up with a match. The relevance of Bachelet is not the first woman to lead a Western hemisphere country I have no problem with. I don't suggest to discuss the legitimacy of women presidents is appropriate and we never want an inflammable debate/argument. Please keep in mind on some talk pages aren't always places for controversy on gender issues and their capability to hold presidential office. -- G. Sageha
[edit] Misleading claims
In my opinion, the "political life" part of the article is rather misleading. It gives the wrong impression regarding Bachellet's political experience and influence. Especially when it states that "She then joined the Socialist Party of Chile and was politically active during the second half of the 1980s, fighting for the re-establishment of democracy in Chile". As far as I can tell her name was not even near the radars of what was going on at that time. She certainly was not in the front line of those who actually called for participation in the 1988's plebiscite, which ultimately gave Pinochet the boot. For most people she is just a newbie in politics, since her name only reached public awareness a few years ago when she was appointed Health Minister. Her popularity is very well worth a sociological survey, I think.
- I recommend to check the wikipedia article in spanish (en espanol) seems to cover more on Bachelet with more detail. Chilean news sources offer accuracy and in-depth coverage from a national POV (not politically motivated, but how a country cover her like she's their president). The limitations in English language news sources of other countries beyond the U.S. and Great Britain, tells me wikipedians don't always have the answers, unless they checked more from a more closer source (Chile or Latin America).+207.200.116.197 09:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Socialist Youth
I know Batchelet was part of a group in college called Socialist Youth, but the article links to a Norwegian group. Should it still be there? Maybe specify the nation in which a group operates. "Socialist Youth" is probably a very common name. - from an ANON IP
According to the article, Bachelet was a member of the East German Socialist Youth, as a Chilean exile in Europe when 'socialist youth' groups are active. The majority of Chilean exiles at the time went to Europe (Britain, France, [west] Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Sweden and Spain), but pro-Allende activists went to the USSR, East Germany and Cuba to protest against an U.S.-allied Pinochet regime.
In 1977, U.S. pres. Carter demanded the Pinochet regime to improve their poor human rights record and as a consequential action, the U.S. cut arms supplies and military aid to Chile among other countries' governments known to committed human rights abuses. For 12 years, Chile wasn't a full-fledged friend to U.S. diplomacy against the man, Gen. Pinochet, the U.S. CIA had an open role on installing him to power.
Today when American tourists flock to Chile and U.S. business deals made Chile look tempting to make money, will there be Chileans loathe or dislike America/the U.S.? I love to visit there one of these days as it reminds me of California or the west coast, where I happen to live.
Chile isn't the only country with a mixed (pro-anti) view of America and its policies. Also the wikipedia article Chile stated half the overseas Chilean population is in the U.S. so it's not an error to say Europe used to, nor Argentina is 2nd place in the current statistic.+ 207.200.116.197 03:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- You need to "hang out" to post your statements to Talk: Chile and the last time I revert it on here. I came upon an article provided by yours truly (Wikipedia) on Chilean-American relations - U.S. intervention in Chile, and the other article on the Economy of Chile to examine/analyze the issues on tourism and commerce. I doubt Sra. Bachelet will have an impact on the business climate, but has no agenda to create political or diplomatic tension with the U.S. government. I kept this comment simple as the article has covered that topic in full detail. Don't forget to read Demographics of Chile before you claim to hold any knowledge on the number of Chilean expatriates. -- G. Sageha
[edit] Fact: torture victim
This is the second time my contribution of the story of Michelle being a torture victim, later finding herself living in the same apartment building as her former torturer, has been eliminated. This is a very apropos piece of information; during the presidential campaign, it was constantly referred to by the news media and in academic discussions - in Chilean universities no less (I attended the Catholic University at the time). This is not an urban legend - it is recorded fact (my edit supplied an internet reference for corroboration), something Michelle herself attested to on live television. How many victims of torture later became ministers of government, not to mention President? It was part of her stature, part of her public credibility, the fact that she was tortured by the military and thirty years later became Minister of Defense. glasperlenspiel 22:33, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
- It was removed because it was in the wrong section, it was badly written and felt too much like an anecdote. —Cantus…☎ 14:39, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "A socialist militant"
Am I the only one that thinks that section title sounds a tad POV?--Jersey Devil 22:55, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
- The Spanish sense of the word militante is more moderate. It means belonging to a political party or group. This is obviously not the English meaning, so I changed it momentarily to "activist," even though that's not the exact word I was looking for. I thought about using the word "member," but it doesn't sound good. —Cantus…☎ 00:52, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] moderate socialist
She isn't socialist. I don't know what you take as socialist, but don't say because she is a member of the Socialist Party. That party don't go further to the left that being a socialdemocrat party. But, it's definetively at center seeing to the right, you can see it on left-wing politics article and then compare that with the las 16 years of chilean history, or the last 6 if you want to be more accurate.
- It's pretty hard to define exactly what ideaology a person belongs to. Since she belongs to a Socialist Coalition, i think that is the most accurate and precise defintion of Bachalet's ideaology. --Shawn 00:28, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Putting in relevant information is now considered vandalism?
CieloEstrellado is saying that I am vandalising the Bachelet site because I am including the fact that Bachelet can speak some Russian and can read Cyrillic. This is as relevant as including the list of languages that Bachelet, a polyglot, is able to speak.
How on earth can this information possibly be considerred vandalism?
--MILH 16:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe vandal is going a bit far but the point is that knowing a few phrases ogf a language and being able to decipher it's alphabet is not really noteworthy. I'm sure most people could achieve that with just a couple of weeks of classes. What you're trying to add does not enhance her proven polyglot abilities IMHO. --GringoInChile 02:18, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- I'm sorry about saying you had "vandalized" this article (I probably just copied and pasted that text from another edit summary related to other edits you've made in Wikipedia.) While the information itself is not vandalism, continually reverting other people's edits is considered vandalism. I invite you to resolve the issue here. ☆ CieloEstrellado 02:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Calling someone a vandal because she believes in telling the truth is slanderous. I have already tried speaking to you in civil terms, but you ignored my overtures while insisting on attacking and deleting information simply because you do not like it.
- I made a mistake in calling the Alejandrina Cox incident the "Paulina Lyon incident" — my mistake. However, though you were kind enough to correct the name slip up, I noticed that you changed absolutely nothing in the meat of the article, aside from putting the exact date of the incident and including some photographs. Yet you insist on calling the incident a POV account.
- Maybe a "POV account" is what you call truths you don't like. Maybe a "vandal" is what you call people who make sound inferences and deductions from undisputed facts, conclusions you don't happen to agree with but do not have the facts to dispute.
- Maybe you have a lot more in common with Pinochet than you care to admit.
- --MILH 03:31, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
-
-
- Regarding the Alejandrina Cox article, you were asked to provide evidence to back up your claims. Since you never took the time to do this simple task, I decided to google-up a little and came up with some references. Now I'm carefully crafting a new version based on the cited references to attempt an accurate version of the article. The current state of the article is unacceptable, that's why I flagged it as POV, while I finish the new version. I hope you don't remove the flag again. ☆ CieloEstrellado 04:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
-
-
-
-
- I would like to know exactly why are you so afraid that people will know that Bachelet can read Cyrillic and speak a little Russian?--MILH 13:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
-
-
If you can't provide a source for it then it shouldn't be in the article. And yes, revert wars are looked down upon at Wikipedia. All you have to do to resolve this matter is add a source, I do not see why this is so difficult.--Jersey Devil 00:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Westland Middle School
As I understand it, Westland Middle School was formed by combining two previous schools - Western and Leland. Which one did Ms. Bachelet attend? john k 13:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Bachelet
I have plans to visit Chile for awhile, but political stability has been a concern to American tourists. A country with a president holds no grudges to the U.S. like Bachelet, may mean the country is safe. From what I know on Chileans' strong historic ties with France, included a small influx of French settlers, herders, vintners and businessmen to Central Chile since the late 19th century.
Bachelet definitely is a common surname in Northeast France and I went to France twice, where's my father is from. One of my great-grand parents carried the surname, but live in the Nord pas du Calais region close to Belgium.
Then back to the subject, it's great for Chile to select a moderate socialist as the president. Latin America is turning to the left, some like Hugo Chavez are quite extreme and hostile to America.
Bachelet admires America in most aspects, despite the U.S. involvement in the Pinochet regime in the 1970s. It's evident in the article Bachelet was a leftist, lived in East Germany when communist, and was an admirer of leader Erich Honecker. But the Honeckers were corrupt and incompetent, then I don't blame Bachelet and how she denounced Communism.
Bachelet by close associates regard her a forgiving and friendly person, a loving mother and represents a comparably successful country for South America. I'm glad to know the government is working harder to ease the poverty gap, one of the world's widest and Chile can achieve Bachelet's socialist dream of a common middle class. I wonder geneaology can find a link between my Dad's family and hers' on the Bachelet surname. + 207.200.116.197 02:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- My apologies for some of my edits, since they strayed from the subject. The article's genealogical information helped to solve my personal mystery...and cannot claim Ms. Bachelet as one of my own. Now I'm embarassed, and there's little to back my claims on her involvement in the East German communist party either. She's not a communist for one thing, then her biographers said the involvement in leftist organizations are evident of her leanings. Oh well, time to run. + 207.200.116.197 02:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Unencyclopedic"
Jersey Devil: Can you define for me how you are using this term so that I can understand where you are coming from, or point me to a definition? --DavidShankBone 14:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Let's examine edits (unsourced, maybe POV)
Continuing the coalition's free-trade strategy, in August 2006 Bachelet signed a free trade agreement with the People's Republic of China, the first Chinese free-trade agreement with a Latin American nation. In October 2006, Bachelet signed a multilateral trade deal with New Zealand, Singapore and Brunei—the Trans-Pacific Strategic Economic Partnership (P4) in Vietnam, where Bachelet had first met US president George W. Bush and US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice.
Bachelet was also in advanced free-trade talks with several other countries, including Japan and Australia. Regionally, she signed bilateral free trade agreements with Panama, Peru and Colombia. In January 2007, Bachelet attended two summits, one she represented Chile in the Mercosur free trade agreement meeting in Ecuador, and she attended the annual World Economic Forum summit in Davos, Switzerland, among over 100 world leaders to dicuss global free trade issues.
Bachelet's first year as president has earned her global attention on the rising number (and acceptance) of women leaders. In a politically turbulent atmosphere of South America, Bachelet tries to compromise Chile's historic diplomatic ties with France, and improved relations with the United States under George W. Bush. The Bush administration and French president Jacques Chirac were split over disagreements with the War in Iraq since 2003, both are conservatives but shared Bachelet's moderate stance on business regulations and pro-free trade policies. Bachelet's view on the war on terror is more akin to that of British Prime Minister Tony Blair, an ally to the US but the UK grew increasingly anti-war.
In December 2006, former Chilean general president Augusto Pinochet dies and the country was divided by pro-Pinochet admirers on "his heroic crusade against communism" versus those, like Bachelet, are victims of his repressive rule. Bachelet managed to keep calm after Pinochet's official funeral and the country was rife in angry demonstrations against the legacy left by the Pinochet regime. Since Bachelet is the president, she also heads the Chilean armed forces, in compliance to take her orders onto handlement of anti-Pinochet demonstrations when the funeral took place. She works on the goverment's continuous drive to bring foreclosure to tens of thousands of human rights violations under the Pinochet regime.
Bachelet finds herself caught in a growing rivalry between center-left and far-left Latin American leaders, such as Venezuela's Hugo Chavez and Nicaragua's president-elect Daniel Ortega. The US asked Bachelet to act as an "intermediary" between Bush and Chavez, but she declined for her reasons she cannot handle any negotiation. Bachelet had more positive relations with Bolivia president Evo Morales, also a far-leftist but Morales never reached the point of Chavez, and souring relations with the US. Bachelet continues focus on achieving a balance between socialist and capitalist policies to keep Chile's economy in a good position.
- AN anon IP (it wasn't me) placed false statements on Bachelet's sexual life. I decided to remove them, unsourced and libellious. I don't think it's a serious issue on Bachelet was a single mother, or her premarital relations or if any proof she's a bisexual (do not post or enter edits without further examination or checking the sources, but such claims can be lies or myths). A woman able to think for herself and performed her duties as a president of any nation, isn't "masculine" or a "lesbian". Those claims are in part, deragatory stereotypes directed against women like Michele Bachelet. 63.3.14.1 20:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)