Talk:Michael Dutton Douglas

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
 This article is part of WikiProject Texas, a WikiProject related to the U.S. state of Texas.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
To-do list for Michael Dutton Douglas: edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
  1. All: Use the comment box —state what your changes are. If more explanation is needed, drop a note here.
  2. Sysops: Quickly day-block vandals. Page protection is not a solution for controversial topic matters.
  3. Newcomers: Please observe Wikipedia:Wikiquette and Wikipedia:Cite sources. The discussion on why Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia may be helpful.
  4. The MDD article is short, it’s been said it is a stub. It ought to be (slightly) expanded.


Contents

[edit] The inference in this article

The inference in this article is clear and false: That Laura Bush deliberately crashed into her ex-boyfriend's car killing him because she was jealous about him going out with one of her friends. It's nonsense. It doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. It is unsourced, with the book referred to making no such claims. This is vandalism of the most egregious kind. Coqsportif 22:21, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

I reiterate my concern for the innuendo in this article, it cites a book that makes no such claims, I have access to a copy of it and it supports neither the "facts" referred to nor the inferences it asserts. It should be removed immediately. Please discuss. Coqsportif 00:10, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Dispute Tags from Michael Dutton Douglas

  • There is a dispute about the neutrality and facts and citations of the Michael Dutton Douglas article. I have read the book referred to and it contains none of the "facts" referred to. The clear inference in the article is that the First Lady killed an ex boyfriend because he was going out with one of her best friends. Even if true (anything's possible I guess), such an allegation would require the closest scrutiny and that's what I'm trying to do.
  • I indicated that dispute by placing dispute tags on the article and initiating a discussion on the matter.
  • Shem has twice removed the dispute tags without discussing the serious issues.
  • I have not vandalized any article although I believe the removing of dispute tags borders on this. I encourage people to judge my good faith by looking at this issue seriously rather than to pre-judge the matter.

Coqsportif 00:35, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I believe Coqsportif's claims of having read George and Laura to be false; this is simply further evidence that Coqsportif here is the sockpuppet of an experienced Wikipedian, seeking to disrupt Wikipedia via Wikistalking, Wikilawyering, and strawman POV-pushing. Shem(talk) 00:39, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Shem, tell me the exact page which makes the assertions in that article implying the First Lady is guilty of a pretty serious crime. It isn't there. Tell me the exact page which says he was going out with one of her friends. It isn't there. Tell me the exact page which says she used to go out with him. It isn't there. If you really want I'll photocopy the pages cited and scan them and email to you so you can see for yourself. The article as it stands is quite terrible but in a sense that's not the issue. The issue is your removal of the dispute tags. Restore them and let's work it out in the Talk page but otherwise you are guilty of the disruptive behavior you so freely accuse others of engaging in. Physician, heal thyself. Coqsportif 00:44, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Snopes disagrees with you concerning the book you haven't read, and if you do have the book handy, by all means scan the pages and post them here on Wikipedia. The article makes no claim of crime, making clear that the incident was a tragic accident, and was written to be extremely careful with regard to potential POV-pushers. You're a vandal, and I'm treating you as such until a sysop takes care of you. Shem(talk) 01:01, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

This is the third time I have warned you and had to restore the dispute tags. You are acting quite outrageously and I suspect will be blocked for what you're doing. Coqsportif 01:42, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Note: User:Coqsportif has been blocked indefinitely from editing Wikipedia for trolling and disruptive edits. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:04, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Copyvio

A large portion of the article was lifted directly from Snopes.com: [1]. I have removed the copied material; please do not reinsert it. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:13, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Chappaquiddick (R)

Compared to the section on Ted Kennedy and Chappaquiddick both this Michael Douglas Dutton article and the paragraph in the Laura Bush article are extremely brief and extremely carefully worded. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a 'fair and balanced' American paper.

"In May 2000, a two-page police report about a fatal car crash caused by Bush when she was 17, was made public. The report revealed that on November 6, 1963 Bush (then Welch) was driving her Chevrolet sedan with one passenger (Judy Dyke, also 17). It was a clear night shortly after 8 p.m. when she entered an intersection, failing to observe the stop sign Bush collided into a Chevrolet Corvair driven by Michael Dutton Douglas, also 17. Bush and Dykes sustained minor injuries; Douglas was pronounced dead on arrival at Midland Memorial Hospital. Laura did not face any charges for rendering his death."

  • No reference is being made regarding the fact that Laura and Douglas were dating at the time, that they went to the schooldance together.
  • Words like "kill" and "manslaughter" are not used.
  • The fact that Laura didn't even get a ticket although the police report states that she violated two traffic violations is omitted.
  • None of the speculations (drunk driving, crime of passion, no first aid administered etc) are mentioned.

--80.217.225.208 03:56, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

  1. Er, reference is made to speculation about romantic involvement. Since there's no conclusive evidence one way or another about the nature, degree, or timing of their relationship, we've properly limited Wikipedia's comment to that verifiable statement.
  2. The crash is described as 'fatal', and Michael Douglas is described as being 'killed'.
  3. A note that Welch was not charged has been added to the article.
  4. You need to find a credible source (not just a blogger with a conspiracy theory to push) that seriously advances those points. Wikipedia properly includes information supported by evidence; pure speculation and beliefs that are not widely held doesn't clear the bar.
With respect to Chappaquiddick, this case is different in several important respects. Here, police were called immediately to the scene. Here, more than one witness survived the accident. Here, Laura Welch wasn't a rising political star. Here, Joyce Carol Oates hasn't written a fictionalized account that captured the public interest. The events at Chappaquiddick had a tremendous ripple effect on American politics; they probably prevented Kennedy from being the 1980 Democratic presidential nominee. Michael Dutton Douglas' death, while tragic, just hasn't had any significant effect outside his immediate circle of friends and family. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 12:31, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Right now there may be another Joyce Carol Oates out there (maybe Tony Kushner, author of Only We Who Guard The Mystery Shall Be Unhappy) who will soon publish a fictionalised account on what happened that night in the dry Midlands of Texas. How an enraged Laura in a fit of passionate jealousy killed her all-American, popular boyfriend because she had learned he had been cheating on her with her best friend Regan Gammon. How the police who arrived at the scene wrote in the police report that two traffic regulations had been violated but how they were later persuaded by the chief to drop the investigation, to not even issue a ticket. How the small oil rich Texas community decided to protect one of it’s more affluent families, like it has always been done.
In the meantime we have credible, reliable information (police report, statements from the First Lady etc etc) as well as a genuine interest to find out more about this incident from the general public. Those two factors are enough, in my opinion, to warrant a detailed encyclopaedia entry.
I, personally, find it interesting that, in the 2000 presidential campaign, both the candidate and his wife had killed specific individuals (signing death warrants + car crash) yet they campaigned with a very Christian message, urging the people to start paying attention to the Ten Commandments, including; "Thou shalt not kill". --80.217.225.208 05:41, 20 August 2005 (UTC)


[edit] What are the 'undisputable facts' that everyone can agree on?

  1. Laura Welch was driving the car that hit the car that Michael Dutton Douglas was driving.
  2. The passenger in Laura Welch’s car was Judy Dyke.
  3. The car Laura was driving was a Chevrolet sedan.
  4. The car Douglas was driving was a Chevrolet Corvair sedan.
  5. The police report was dated 8.08 PM, Nov 6, 1963.
  6. There was a dry road according to the police report.
  7. The weather was clear according to the police report.
  8. It was dark according to the police report.
  9. The view was unobstructed according to the police report.
  10. In the police report, two violations of traffic laws are listed in the "violations contributing to accident".
    1. One of the listed violations is that the "Driver 2", that hit Douglas' car, "disregarded a stop sign".
    2. What the second violation says is indecipherable, something about "speed", but not "speeding - over limit" which is the box above.
  11. In the police report, there is no mention that Douglas 'made any violations' that contributed to the collision.
    1. Douglas had the right-of-way according to the police report.
  12. In the police report, there is no mention that Judy Dyke 'made any violations' that contributed to the collision.
  13. Laura was not charged with anything in connection with the collision.
  14. Laura was not ticketed in connection with the collision.
  15. Laura did kill Michael Dutton Douglas. Webster’s dictionary definition of the verb 'kill'
  16. Laura, Douglas and Judy Dyke were all seventeen years old.
  17. Laura, Douglas and Judy Dyke all went to Robert E. Lee High School.
    1. Douglas was nominated as the school's most popular boy while a junior.
    2. Laura and Douglas were classmates.
  18. Laura Welch and Judy Dyke were on their way to a party that night according to the biography The Perfect Wife: The Life and Choices of Laura Bush.
  19. Laura Welch and Michael Dutton Douglas had dated throughout early and mid-1963 according to the biography George and Laura: Portrait of an American Marriage.
  20. According to Jim Vertuno, Associated Press, 3 May 2000, "Laura Bush ran a stop sign and crashed into another car, killing her boyfriend"

yes/no? --saxet 07:15, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

The police report has a checkmark on item #25 of the "Violations contributing to accident". This violation was attributed to Dutton. What is it? I can't read it, nor can I find any mention of it. Tbeatty 04:08, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request for photo

The first page of the official police report. One image can be found at Indymedia Euskal Herria, but that particular image is low-resolution. --SisterMaryJo 18:39, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

It's a yearbook scan, apparently. A Google Image search for his name leads to this malicious interpretation's gallery. The site's opinion is crackpot, but the scans all appear legitimate. Shem(talk) 22:00, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Appalling site indeed - however, this article should, nevertheless, have a picture of MDD. It will have one sooner or later anyway, and my feeling is that the article is incomplete without one. Puts a face on the name and all that. All the biographies/news articles describes what he looked like so I'll bet that those that are interested in the subject matter want to see for themselves. And better they see it here, I think, than in a "malicious gallery". I suggest an appropriate image (see Kopechne). Something along the lines of the scan that is in the 4th row down in the middle. (ps. don’t know anything about image uploads/copyright issues) --saxet 04:22, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Agreed; that appears to be his junior photo, the most recent prior to his death. Given he is deceased, and the yearbook is that of a public school, it should be fine for Wikipedia under fair use. I've uploaded and tagged it appropriately: Image:Michael Dutton Douglas.jpg Shem(talk) 06:56, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree that also the first page of the police report should be included in the article. It contains information regarding who was driving and who was a passenger, type of vehicles, etc. (On that vicious site I also found scans of local newspaper clippings as well as a picture of MDD's wrecked car, that might help disprove the 'doorless jeep-rumor'.) --saxet 06:10, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vote for Deletion

This article survived a Vote for Deletion. The discussion can be found here. -Splash 03:58, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Note; 83 percent was in favor of keeping the article. --saxet 05:27, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
And even more than that, if you discount banned users who voted via sockpuppet. Shem(talk) 06:43, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Boyfriend?

OK, so I gather that there's a source that says she dated him, but I also gather that some don't find that source reputable. I came here to find out - I had heard that she dated him, and wanted to see what this article had to say - it says NOTHING.

It seems to me that since this has been widely reported - not just internet rumors, but many media personalities reporting it as FACT, that it merits mention... but perhaps NOT as fact. What I mean is, it is undoubtedly true that millions of americans have heard this claim reported as fact by media sources they consider reliable... so, is it not likely that people will come here to find out the basis for this claim? In fact, is it not likely that this would be one of the MAIN reasons people come here? It was for me!

So it seems to me that if the source is not considered reliable, that at least there should be a sentence along the lines of "Some media figures and political commentators allege that Laura Bush had dated Michael Douglas, but this cannot be reliably verified."

Isn't that reasonable? Jafafa Hots 04:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Probably, but I still don't know what it would matter either way. Don't get me wrong, it's worth mentioning, but I can't figure out why one side would make it up or the other would deny it. --BDD 16:52, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable

Is the following comment strictly necessary, seeing as it has no citation and seems rather like a conspiracy theory?

It is speculated that Welch intentionally rammed Douglas' vehicle because
she suspected him to be a liberal.

This is extremely doubtful, to say the least...--Vlmastra 23:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../m/i/c/Talk%7EMichael_Dutton_Douglas_5c7c.html"